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FORUM / RUGBY /  The rolling maul: The Boks need a new coach; By Spiro Zavos the ROAR

The rolling maul: The Boks need a new coach; By Spiro Zavos the ROAR

Started by Just_win34 REPLIES943 VIEWS· 13 Nov 2014, 22:34
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
13 Nov 2014, 22:34
#1
13 Nov 2014, 22:34#1

The Springboks need a new coach after losing to Ireland’s 29-15.

It is not often that a top-tier team is as comprehensively out-coached as the Springboks were by the New Zealander Joe Schmidt with his storming, fired-up and smart Ireland side at the Aviva Stadium.

Good coaching is about accurate and thoughtful selection, which Graham Henry once said was about 90 per cent of the task.

The rest of the task is giving the selected team the tactics and strategy to stop the opposition’s attacks and to launch your own so as to win the Test.

The Springboks had their selections all wrong. And because these wrong selections dictated the way they had to play, they got their tactics and strategy all wrong as well.

We come here to the issue of Victor Matfield. He is a peerless lineout jumper and stealer of the opposition’s ball, still, even though in rugby years he is past the veteran stage. But that is all Matfield is now. He is a one-trick pony. And this is a huge problem for the Springboks.

If you play Matfield you have to play an attritional rolling maul game from lineouts because this is his great trick. So the Springboks turned down a number of kickable penalties to force five-man lineout drives. They actually scored from one of these drives but several of them were thwarted.

And they were thwarted through smart thinking and coaching by Ireland. Twice Ireland backed away after a lineout, leaving the Springboks poised for the maul but not being able to make any contact with the opposition forwards. Other times Ireland successfully engaged in the hand-to-hand battle of stopping the Springboks maul from going forward.

The point here is that depowering the maul in a Matfield-Springboks side is rather like shaving the hair off Samson’s head.

Conversely, Matfield himself was unimpressive in his efforts, along with the other seven forwards, to stop Ireland when they scored a psychologically important mauling try of their own.

There is nothing new with the Springboks maul. The All Blacks have a terrific variation where they bring three of their backs into the front of lineout. This gives them the option of playing the blindside with effect if the initial drive is stopped. It also forces defenders to keep numbers out of the defensive maul to watch the blindside. This, in turn, has allowed Richie McCaw to score tries from the initial drive.

There is none of this cleverness bred from good coaching in the Springboks plays. They rely on the doctrine that might is right. And yes, on their day, especially at home, the bulk and power of the Springboks can overwhelm oppositions. They did this to Wales earlier in the year in South Africa.

This brings us to the continued selection of halfback Francois Hougaard. Has an international halfback for a major side ever played a poorer game than Hougaard against Ireland? Probably not. His passing was terrible. His option taking was invariably wrong. He made handling mistakes. His kicking was invariably ineffective. And he gave his forwards no running go-forward.

All of this is inevitable in his play. How a Springboks coach can pick someone who plays halfback rather like a chunky winger with no passing skills is beyond me.

It is obvious to anyone with any knowledge about rugby that when Hougaard is playing at halfback, the Springboks can’t have a fluent, attacking backline. The deterioration in the play of Handre Pollard is obvious. He is standing far too deep. He is kicking too much. And his running game, as a consequence, has fallen away.

One other point, Hennie le Roux is a fabulous running fullback but coach Heyneke Meyer has not put in place any systems with wingers and centres dropping back to help le Roux run back opposition kicks. Poor coaching, once again.

A couple of weeks ago I mentioned on The Roar that the Springboks have to learn to win more away from home. I got roasted by True Believers. But the fact remains that the Springboks over the years have not been as strong out of Africa as the All Blacks are, say, out of New Zealand.

In my view, the Rugby World Cup 2007 victory was a special case event with the Springboks winning the tournament without playing New Zealand or Australia, both teams that had claims to having the measure of the Springboks, out of South Africa.

There is this quote from Brad Pitt in Moneyball that is relevant, I believe, “I hate losing. I hate losing more than I even want to win.’

Hating to lose works at home games where the home ground advantage can generate a tremendous emotional lift for the local side. But it is generally not as effective away from home.

Teams do best away from home when they take the game to the locals, as the Wallabies and All Blacks did last weekend (and the Springboks did not!).

As I watched the Springboks, without the benefit of good coaching, get overwhelmed by a feisty, well-coached Ireland side I wondered just what the outcome of the Test would have been if Meyer was coaching Ireland and Schmidt was coaching South Africa.

A tremendous victory to the Springboks, most likely.

Sonny Bill Williams has improved the All Blacks
The All Blacks have been a terrific team since their Rugby World Cup 2011 triumph. However, the coming of Sonny Bill Williams has improved the side immensely. What he gives to the All Blacks now is strong defence, from a back, in the middle of the field, dynamic running and stunning off-loading.

The effect of this is to harden up the All Blacks attack. With Williams back in midfield sides will no longer be able to close down the All Blacks attack (as the Wallabies and Springboks did in their last two Tests) by using a drifting defence to close down the wingers.

Williams’ holds will force the defence to stay square and static as the plays evolve, which in turn will allow more space for the All Blacks wingers and fullbacks closer to the touchlines to exploit.

I had thought that Williams would not displace Ma’a Nonu as the All Blacks starting inside centre, when both of them are available. But on the evidence of his Test against England, in particular, Williams has already gone past Nonu as the All Blacks starter at inside centre.

Steve Hansen is right when he asserts that Sonny Bill Williams is about the best back playing in world rugby right now.

The All Blacks in 2014 and presumably in 2015 are a much better side than they were in 2011. Part of this due to rise of Aaron Smith, who is the best All Blacks halfback since Dave Loveridge, and arguably now fit to be compared with Chris Laidlaw as the ultimate passing halfback.

The All Blacks scrum looked a bit wonky at times against England. But even with 14 players they had the measure of England at Twickenham. A number of missed easy shots at goal made the scoreline much closer than it really should have been.

What is happening with the top referees
Before last week’s round of matches, the odds on were Nigel Owens being the top referee at the Rugby World Cup 2015 tournament with the final being his, provided Wales was not one of the sides contesting for the Webb Ellis trophy.

But Owens had a terrible game in the England-New Zealand Test at Twickenham.

After getting the call correct on the Aaron Cruden try, despite the efforts of the television producers to get the decision over-turned, he seemed to lose confidence in his own eyes and allowed himself to be swayed by the braying of the crowd.

He went against the protocols and gave a yellow card against Dane Cole, when the TMO said this sanction was not warranted, and had another look at the Charles Faumuina’s try he had awarded when the TMO made this suggestion.

The IRB, rather predictably, has supported Owens for what he did.

But Steve Hansen is right. He is critical of producers and the TMO calling for replays after the referee has made a decision.

“TV producers are having too big a say … and I don’t think it is a positive thing for the game,” Hansen said.

Referees, he says, should be the only ones to call for replays and each team should have two challenges a Test. Quite right.

Other aspects of Owens’ refereeing were not up to standard, too. He let England get away with flooding the rucks and mauls with prone England bodies intending to slow down the All Blacks ball.

Owens needs to look at Craig Joubert, who did a terrific job in the Wales-Australia Test. Joubert gets quick ball from rucks and mauls by insisting that the tackler not impede the delivery of the ball back to the waiting halfback.

When one Welsh forward complained he couldn’t get out of the way, Jouber told him, “You shouldn’t have got in that position in the first place”.

And this is the important point. Tacklers generally have an option where they will land or fall after making a tackle. Too many of them decide to fall across the player they have tackled to prevent a quick re-cycling of the ball.

By concentrating on this simple element in the tackle and being firm in his decisions, Joubert has effectively cleaned up the complicated ruck area and allowed sides that want to play ball-in-hand rugby to have a chance to do this effectively.

Joubert is ahead of Owens in my book and hopefully (if the Springboks don’t make the Rugby World Cup 2015 final) in the IRB outlook, too. I have said it before and say it again, Joubert is the best referee in world rugby right now.

Romain Poite, another of the highly-regarded referees with Rugby World Cup final aspirations, did well in the Ireland-South Africa Test. He astonished the Springboks by stopping a rolling maul that looked like crossing Ireland’s tryline after the maul had rejected his calls of “Use it! Use it!”

I can only applaud this approach. The rolling maul makes offside play for the mauling side legal. As a way of compensating for this concession, the law says that after the first stop the ball must be released once the maul stops a second time. The Springboks often reject this call from a referee, and get away with it.

They won’t do this again with Poite, and hopefully other referees who referee the rolling maul as effectively as he does.

Wayne Barnes was typically legalistic in the Scotland-Argentina match. My main disagreement with Barnes as a top referee is that he is very quick with his whistle but his accuracy does not match his speed of decision-making.

He would be a much better referee is he let matters develop a bit more, as Glen Jackson did in the France-Fiji Test.

We will get a better look at the leading referees this round with the following Tests.

Samoa versus Canada (referee George Clancy). The Irishman Clancy is a favourite of the IRB for some reason. In my opinion, he is not in the same class as Owens, Joubert or Poite.

England versus South Africa (Steve Walsh). Walsh is something of a show pony as a referee. English rugby writers have been very critical of him, which is probably to his credit when I come to think of it. He did well in the Italy-Samoa match last weekend. It will be interesting to see whether Walsh can encourage the two most attritional teams in world rugby to play some ensemble, attractive rugby.

Italy versus Argentina (Craig Joubert). The Pumas surely can’t play as poorly and lethargicly as they did against Scotland. Italy tried to move the ball around against Samoa and look to have unearthed a decent number 10, at last, in Kelly Houmona.

Scotland versus New Zealand (Romain Poite). Vern Cotter, a New Zealander from the Crusader’s franchise, appears to have done a splendid job in revitalising Scotland. Scotland were terrific in the first half and went off the boil a bit in the second half. But the game was won by half-time.

Scotland, like Ireland, have never beaten the All Blacks. In the past, though, they have forced close encounters. A test of the improvement that has been made to the side since Cotter came in will be made over the weekend against an All Blacks side that is hitting form.

France versus Australia (Nigel Owens). The fact that Owens in successive weeks has been given England, New Zealand, Australia and France suggests to me that he is currently favoured by the IRB as their top man. But having made a bit of a hash of England-New Zealand, Owens will want to be much better at Paris.

France were quite good against Fiji at Marseilles. They don’t look to be much better, though, than they were in Australia earlier this year when the Wallabies won all three Tests in the series.

But the old adage about France is always appropriate: the outcome of the Test depends upon which French side turns up. In 2012 France defeated the Wallabies in their last home Test against them, 33-6.

Despite this, I’m predicting another Wallabies victory to go with the other two (the Barbarians and Wales) secured on this 2014 European tour.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
13 Nov 2014, 22:51
#2
13 Nov 2014, 22:51#2
Well Spiro will have some of you mad as hell & some will giving a knowing nod 
CL
ClaydogClub Pro691 posts
13 Nov 2014, 23:47
#3
13 Nov 2014, 23:47#3
 Read this yesterday JW and thought about posting it but decided to let sleeping dogs lie.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Nov 2014, 00:00
#4
14 Nov 2014, 00:00#4
Claydog: some of the posters on this site don't like things being too quiet
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
14 Nov 2014, 00:18
#5
14 Nov 2014, 00:18#5
Bloody hell, Meyer's gone crazy picking the older guys - Hennie Le Roux at fullback
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Nov 2014, 00:20
#6
14 Nov 2014, 00:20#6
If you want a pair of hand made shoes, Patrides makes a 100 year shoe that is as light as a feather. But if you want rugby advice beware of Greeks bearing gifts.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
14 Nov 2014, 00:21
#7
14 Nov 2014, 00:21#7
 agree with almost all.

Owens had a very bad day, other big mistakes not mentioned were: the penalty try (the first row popped up, the English first, before going sideway more than backwards) and not showing a yellow to Morgan for a cynical penalty under the posts.


"Owens needs to look at Craig Joubert, who did a terrific job in the Wales-Australia Test. Joubert gets quick ball from rucks and mauls by insisting that the tackler not impede the delivery of the ball back to the waiting halfback."

...


"By concentrating on this simple element in the tackle and being firm in his decisions, Joubert has effectively cleaned up the complicated ruck area and allowed sides that want to play ball-in-hand rugby to have a chance to do this effectively."



too true and contrary to what happened at Twickenham where the English did whatever they wanted to slow the AB ball in the rucks, stand offside, hands in ruck, etc, etc

Here's a big difference btwin NH and SH refs. NH refs are a lot more permissives



"the law says that after the first stop the ball must be released once the maul stops a second time. The Springboks often reject this call from a referee, and get away with it."


" They won’t do this again with Poite, and hopefully other referees who referee the rolling maul as effectively as he does."


too true also and glad to see a bok fan recognizing it

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Nov 2014, 00:44
#8
14 Nov 2014, 00:44#8
Actually if you look at these mauls the ground was littered with obstructing Irish forwards. In one maul near the start of the game McGrath crawled in the path of the Boks maul three times....and I mean crawled. Clever stuff, but guys like Joubert would never have tolerated it.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
14 Nov 2014, 01:18
#9
14 Nov 2014, 01:18#9
 Poite was awful in the Ireland/South Africa match, for both teams, before one of you Kiwi's try and label me as a Re f basher.
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
14 Nov 2014, 06:54
#10
14 Nov 2014, 06:54#10
The Irish were certainly better coached, as I said directly after the game. The Boks didn't look coached. We relied on brute force and the easiest tactic to defend against in the game: isolated runners standing off the rucks.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Nov 2014, 08:38
#11
14 Nov 2014, 08:38#11
The part of that article dealing with the Springboks is proof that even a one-eyed fool like Spiro Zavos occasionally gets it right . . . even if he has Hennie Le Roux playing fullback!

Perhaps it's a sort of infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters thing because Spiro normally has an enormous chip on his shoulder when it comes to South Africa but it's hard to argue with his points about Matfield, Hougaard, Meyer and the Springboks tendency to underperform away from home.

I only skimmed over the rest of the article and it seems Spiro back to his whining ways and he sounds almost like Baboon-ou as he bleats about the quality of refereeing without putting up any constructive alternatives.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
14 Nov 2014, 08:43
#12
14 Nov 2014, 08:43#12
 
As I've said ... Meyer can't coach and he most certainly doesn't have a clue regarding selections.

Meyer and Meyer alone is our problem.

He should do the right thing and resign.

Next year's world cup is a goner. Time to develop our boys properly for 2019.

Bring back Mallet.  



BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
14 Nov 2014, 08:46
#13
14 Nov 2014, 08:46#13

The biggest criticism I have of Meyer is his reliance on older player with experience which has limited opportunities for younger players.


The second biggest criticism is the performances against lower ranked teams when there just seemed to be no urgency or focus.


The captaining of Jean is possibly the third issue I have as he has lost form and your captain must be an automatic selection.


The fact is we will criticise every South African coach, that is par for the cause as we each have our own ideas of what the coach does wrong, I just don't think we have anyone bette r at the moment.

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Nov 2014, 08:56
#14
14 Nov 2014, 08:56#14
It's too late to dump Meyer and probably JdV as well. SARU are hardly going to run the risk of having all the blame dumped on them because they fired a coach so close to a RWC and if Meyer was going to pick a new captain he would have done it by now.

I'm guessing we won't have a new coach or captain at next year's RWC so we may as well accept it and support them.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Nov 2014, 08:59
#15
14 Nov 2014, 08:59#15
 I hope those who are so critical of Meyer will be the first to congratulate him is he beats the Poms?
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
14 Nov 2014, 09:09
#16
14 Nov 2014, 09:09#16
If we are this unhappy with a coach that has the best win ratio since Kitch Ch ristie, then I doubt we will be happy with any coach. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Nov 2014, 09:13
#17
14 Nov 2014, 09:13#17
 Matfield is an one-trick pony.  He can take the line-out balls - but he is uselesss in mauls - especially not driving mauls.  He repeatedly get pushed out of the side of mauls - and brings no strength to the mauls.  That is one of the main reasons wghy the Tight 5 has been weakened massively and Meyer is too coz with his friend Victor to realize that.   
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Nov 2014, 09:18
#18
14 Nov 2014, 09:18#18
  But that is all Matfield is now. He is a one-trick pony. And this is a huge problem for the Springboks. HHE HAS NEVER BEEN ATIGHT FORWARD AND HAS BEEN A DISASTER FOR BOK RUGBY FOR A DECADE
They actually scored from one of these drives but several of them were thwarted.
BUT WERE THEY STOPPED LEGALLY????? ONE ROLLING MAUL WAS GOINMG FORWARD VERY NICEL;Y AND LOOK LIKE A TRY WAS ON WHEN POITE BLEW IT UP!!!
It is obvious to anyone with any knowledge about rugby that when Hougaard is playing at halfback, the Springboks can’t have a fluent, attacking backline. The deterioration in the play of Handre Pollard is obvious. He is standing far too deep. He is kicking too much. And his running game, as a consequence, has fallen away.

WHAT A LOAD OF CRUD!!  DID THIS TWIT SEE THE HOME TESTS!!!! HOW DUMB DO YOU GET!!MOZ PLEASE SEND THIS OAK THE MATCH STATS BEFORE HE CRITICISES MEYER LIKE HE DOES. OUR DOMINATION OF THE STATS SHOWS THE IRISH COACH DIDNT GET MUCH OF THE GAME RIGHT!
Steve Hansen is right when he asserts that Sonny Bill Williams is about the best back playing in world rugby right now.
BWAHAHAHAHAHHA WHAT EXACTLY DID SUNNY BILL WILLIAMSS DO AGAINST ENG;AND. HE WAS PUT DOWN EASILY, HIS OFFLOADS NEVER GAME OFF AND HE WAS CAUGHT FROM BEHIND. HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA. HE WILL HAVE TO IMPROVE OTHERWISE MOTHER NONU WILL BE BACK. HANSEN IS TOO DOFF TO DROP THE VASTLY OVERATED CONRAD CARTHORSE.  
The All Blacks scrum looked a bit wonky at times against England.
  
THE TWIT IS SO BIASED HE HAS NO CLUE WHATSOEVER!A number of missed easy shots at goal made the scoreline much closer than it really should have been.

THE HATTTER TAKES NO ACCOUNT THAT THIS WAS ENGLAND B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JW please post more of Spiros as he is a huge laugh - a more biased hatter would be hard to find - a typical delusional kbb!!! To be fair to the oak he at least gets the matfiled part right but you have to be totally clueless about lock play  to miss that one.With writers like that no wonder the kiwis are so mixed up and bent. 
No offence ment!



CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
14 Nov 2014, 09:26
#19
14 Nov 2014, 09:26#19
 
It really is surprising that he has the best win ratio since Christie  ... yet we struggle against lowly little Argentina, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Matches we were more than fortunate to win.

JW ... I shan't suddenly rate him just because of a victory over England. He has already shown his quality or rather the lack of, against the likes of Argentina and Scotland. We saw how poor he was last week against Ireland.

Completely out smarted and out coached.

His indecision is driving me insane. The state of panic written all over his face doesn't fill me with confidence.

I gave him a decent shot. He has failed us. A farce and a sham.

I'm done. 




BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Nov 2014, 09:31
#20
14 Nov 2014, 09:31#20
 Next the hatter says this 

But Owens had a terrible game in the England-New Zealand Test at Twickenham.

After getting the call correct on the Aaron Cruden try, despite the efforts of the television producers to get the decision over-turned, he seemed to lose confidence in his own eyes and allowed himself to be swayed by the braying of the crowd.

HOWEVER THETRUTH IS Owens blundered by not going to the TMO as there was no evidence at all that the ball had been grounded by the Crude on the line. It was not a try and cost England the match. If Owens saw this on the screen he must have realised he had blundered and the next time listened to the crowd re Coles and asked for a replay and rightly so as it turned out

But we have Spiros being a typical kiwi cry baby  and complaining about Coles correcly getting a yellow for  for kicking an England player. Just like the kbbs wailed their heads off 

when Meesam got a mere penalty against him for an extremely dangerous high tackle on Burger.

Quite clearly the kbbs are adverse to having the correct decisons called. Much rather their players get away with dirty play and infringements particulary red zone infringements which is their forte. No wonder the crowd booed mcaaaw. Long may it last and hoipefully garther strength.  Its time these wee abs were brought to account!!!!!!

Beenoas always setting th e recod straight for bent kbbs!



JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Nov 2014, 09:48
#21
14 Nov 2014, 09:48#21

Beeno: let me summarise:

 

Boks had problems with the "greasy ball" & lost;

ABs had no problem with the "greasy ball" & won.

 

Beeno now has: pre-game excuses, during game excuses & post game excuses.

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
14 Nov 2014, 12:10
#22
14 Nov 2014, 12:10#22
 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Nov 2014, 12:15
#23
14 Nov 2014, 12:15#23

That article is spot on regarding Meyer and Matfield, except for the fact that Matfield is no longer the king of line-outs, he is no better or worse than any other line-out exponent at the highest level.

 

Meyer has not evolved as a coach and was out of the game for too long and it shows.

 

Henry is spot on.....90% of coaching is about accurate selections, the art of the game is pretty universal and not a hidden secret. 

 

Meyer's biggest flaw is his poor selections which centre around the reliance on old players who would have been ideal had he been coaching the Boks 5 to 10 years ago.

 

The man is stuck in a time warp with regards to who he thinks are his best players. One gets the impression that he is not open to who the youngsters are out there and the few that have come on board have never stayed the distance other than Etzebeth and Willie.

 

If Fourie was healthy, Jan would not be starting and the same can be said of Coetzee had Louw been about.

 

But given Coetzee and Jan have been forced to start as it were, they have evolved into test certainties and amongst the best performers in the side.

 

Meyers poor selections are beyond a joke now, the man keeps selling Bok rugby short......just look at the youth of the England side they are facing on Saturday and to think it would have been that much lower had Tuilagi been available ahead of Barritt.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Nov 2014, 16:11
#24
14 Nov 2014, 16:11#24

Biltong let the young buggers perform when they get selected....JdV did, Habana did, JP did, Joubert did, Willie did, Etzebeth did.

 

Look at the list Mvovo, Basson, Rhule, Taute, JJ, de Allende, Stepfontein, Jantjies, Goosen, Reinach, Coenie, Malherbe, van der Merwe, Nyakane, Adriaanse, Lood, Steph, Daniels, Mahoje....and several I have missed.

 

Every one of these players was given a chance. And the case for every one of these players was weaker after they had played a few tests. There is a need for patience I am told. But I cant think of one of our Bok greats who wasn't there to compete in their first test.

 

 

In the old days a test year might have been four tests. If you didn't perform in your first test you were gone. Young guys like HO de Villiers and Gert Muller knew they had to perform....nobody was a young player who was "just learning". I believe that demanding attitude i s much closer to where the ABs are....nobody is a passenger.

 

Lets have a performance environment, not one that coddles failure.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Nov 2014, 17:00
#25
14 Nov 2014, 17:00#25

Problem is your list of failures is simply not true......Taute, Rhule, Mvovo, JJ, de Allende, Serfontein, Goosen, Reinach, Coenie, Malherbe, v/d Merwe, Nkanyane, Lood, Steph and Oupa have not failed at test level.

 

The likes of Jean, Joubert etc did not make more of an impression than these players in the first 3 or 4 tests they played and that is a fact.......the majority on your list have not started in more than 5 tests.

 

You cannot make a judgement call on a player like Lood or de Allende based on the little test exposure they have had. To say they failed is simply far from the truth.

 

Meyer's problem is that he shows no faith in these players as he feels more secure in playing the old established players despite it being apparent to all that they are past it.

 

Players like Serfontein and Coetzee have had extended runs at test level and they are now amongst the best players in the current Bok side. That is what proper investment produces.

 

Does Meyer honestly think the likes of Matfield, Bakkies, Schalk and co are the best in their respective positions and will be come the WC or that these players still have more to give........its short sightedness of the highest level.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Nov 2014, 17:37
#26
14 Nov 2014, 17:37#26
 Mozart
This article and at elast two others o this site has identified Matfueield as a passenger in the Springbok team.   
 Your list of failures are at best dubious.   When Etebeth came in teh team - you wrote the same garage that you now write about the players listed by you.
Why I say yhe list is dubious is because you have listed the following who have had very little playing time as being failures:-
   *   De Allende - whose first  game was in atrocious conditions and in the two games he layed made more line breaks and beat more defenders than the other backline players did in the two games in question.   Showed clearly what a biased fool you really are.
   *   Nobody - bar you would condemn Serontein as a failure.   He is in your book a threat to your favourite - De Villiers - so he obviously must be denigrated on the most unbelievable basis imaginable
   *    Reinach had altogether 25 minuts game time and you condemn him as a failutre.   Absolute balls - but then you have been writing tripe about him for months.
   *    Pieter-Steph du Toit had 10 minutes game time - but he failed in your book.
   *    Coenie and Malherbe you hve been going on for years and all because they perform better than Jannie du Plessis and has performed better in tets this year.   Jannie is your national treasure, so any potential threat must be denigrated by falls and iften malicious inaccuracies.
   *     De Jager did well enough when he playd for the Springboks.
The four players you prefer has shown nothing in most games this year and they were in fact p[asssengers:-
*   Matfield is physically deficient and a let-down in Tight 5 play
*    Bakkies Botha was the laziest good-for-nothing in te lock position in the tests he played in since his return to the Springbok team..  Produced zero of any value.  
*    Burger was busy as a bee in some tests, but in actual fact achieved very little of consequence.     
Burger was a touuch better than the other two - but when the chips were down on Saturday he failed badly.    

BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
14 Nov 2014, 18:25
#27
14 Nov 2014, 18:25#27

 Look at the list Mvovo, Basson, Rhule, Taute, JJ, de Allende, Stepfontein, Jantjies, Goosen, Reinach, Coenie, Malherbe, van der Merwe, Nyakane, Adriaanse, Lood, Steph, Daniels, Mahoje.


Mozart, firstly you have to look at each player individually, you can't just lump them in one group and say look at this, because you are laying the broadsword into them without any merit of discussion or reason.


De Allende, you criticise a player who is played out of position for a couple of games next to the captain who breaks the defensive line, in conditions not great for running rugby and in a team that underperformed as a whole and then you dismiss him?


Goosen, I am trying to think whether he actually completed a test match, there might be one, I am too lazy to check now, the guy has had injury upon injury which didn't help with his form.


Pieter Steph du Toit, seriously?


Reinach has played off he bench and is only starting his first test tomorrow and already you have decided he is kak?


So, there are a few examples of players you lump into the "drop their arses" category without proper thought

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Nov 2014, 18:29
#28
14 Nov 2014, 18:29#28
Moffie likes to just band names about with no validity to their inclusions.......saying guys like Lood, Reinach, Rhule, Taute, PSDT, Nkanyane, Malherbe, v/d Merwe, Goosen or de Allende were test failure given the test game time they have had is insulting 
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
14 Nov 2014, 19:37
#29
14 Nov 2014, 19:37#29
How nice to see some civil rugby discussion in the midst of disagreement. Kudos to you all.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Nov 2014, 21:29
#30
14 Nov 2014, 21:29#30
Well let's look at the the exceptions mentioned.
Lomp  was anointed after the Welsh test, but was owned by the Bargies. Then with us right on the AB line....he runs an angle where Barrett can push him into touch. Pretty thick.
Steph had a few games off the bench but has lost a whole year through injury. I predicted this as Mike knows. This lad was three years away from physical maturity when they tossed him in the deep end. He is a combatative chap and tried to do more than his young body could tolerate.
De Allende hardly had a conclusive S15 at centre...some good games, some which showed his inexperience. That was painfully obvious against the Bargies where he kept leaving gaps in the defensive line.

Reinach....a mid career player, who is a technically weak scrum half. He will like Hougaard play in matches that showcase his athleticism....but then in matches like the S15 semi and preceding game, where he was technically exposed.
The rest like JJ, Taute etc are past debating about...they are history.
All of this stems from a view of team selection that runs counter to the philosophy of every winning organization....choose your best team, stick with that team until a potential change is clearly better than the incumbent and fits the game plan at least as well.

That's the path towards continuous improvement as opposed to the Rudolph Destroyli path that you guys are advocating, even if you haven't figured that out yet.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
14 Nov 2014, 21:47
#31
14 Nov 2014, 21:47#31
Reinach is 24, hardly mid career.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Nov 2014, 21:58
#32
14 Nov 2014, 21:58#32
 Mozart
Pieter-Steph had 10 minutes from the bench in the Welsh test - not a few games.   And you did not predict any injury - you just hoped for one, becaue of Matfield's return.  
De Allende had an excellenrt Super 15 scoring and making more tries than any other scenter in Super 15 - he was the top-ranked cner in Super 15 and ended up on par with Fekitoa.   Why do you disdtord issues beyond recognition?   How many gaps did he leave in teh Argentinian games?   He missed two tackles int eh first game - but that was in broken play not in a fully-fledged backline attqck by the Argentinians.   The one  gap you spoke about was ciaused by De Villiers rushing outofthe defensive line.
How technically weak is Reinach?   Do you actually know what is reqquired from a scrummie to make that kind of statement?   You have argued about him and when challenged about you wild statements - you never brought any proof to support your arguments.   He happened to be one of the better players in the Sharks team in the semi - tht according to the commentators - but you said he was "technically exposed".   I suppose he made a critical error by finding touch directly once who is suddenly turned to "technically exposed" according to you.  
"All of this stems from a view of team selection that runs counter to the philosophy of every winning organization....choose your best team, stick with that team until a potential change is clearly better than the in[removed]bent and fits the game plan at least as well".
Nobody would disagree with that statemet - so a team is to be selected not on reputation only - but with due regard to present performances.   The players who was part of the 2007 WC squad - failed the team in 2011 and now - according to you -  they are and will be good enough in 2015.   That is the joke with the selections of Meyer.  To select players like the following is madeness and cn cost us ever more dearly as times go on:-
*   Bakkies Botha - whom in all thetest he played in since November last year did less than a normal lock would do in one test ;
*    Matfield who is pushed out of mauls regularly ending up on the side of mauls and even on the grass  - showing no physicality at all; and 
*   Jean de Viliers whose performances since last year have deteriorasted to a level where he is not even near to satisfactiry.    

You can add similar comments as to Jannie du Plessis and whn th chips were down to Burger - who was poor last week.   
        
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Nov 2014, 23:53
#33
14 Nov 2014, 23:53#33
 Here we go again....apologize OOm. When will you get it...I don't lie. If I say I warned he was vulnerable, you can take it to the bank.
mozart
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 9701RE: Pieter-Steph du Toit back for Sharks, could be ready for return leg of Championship
September 11, 2013, 14:38:25You mean try creating Kruger....dontcha OOM? Pieter Stephanie is a better PROSPECT than the two Bools I'll grant you. He still has to prove he is better than the regular S15 locks in the SA teams. I think he probably will, he cetainly has a lot of energy. Unfortunately most of his pyrotechnics so far have led to injuries. Last year he still seemed too much of a boy.....got manhandled. This year his strength was clearly improved, but not his durability. He hasn't found himself yet.....in all likelyhood he will, but maybe not this year.


HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
15 Nov 2014, 04:12
#34
15 Nov 2014, 04:12#34
 "I believe that demanding attitude is much closer to where the ABs are....nobody is a passenger." You are not wrong there Mozart hence there is no such thing as a 2nd String ABs Team.

Sure, deep down we all know at times the ABs coaches have played certain players out of their usual positions to gauge how they perform and to answer certain questions - for example:

1. The ABs final Test against the Boks in SA 2011 in which the Boks won
2. The final Tri-Nation match against the Wallabies 2011 in which the Wallabies won
3. The match against the Barbarians when Sir GH was coach in which the Barbarians won
4. The Test Match this Year at Ellis Park in which the Boks won
5. The first Test Match against the Robbie Deans coached Wallabies side in which the Wallabies won

The Ellis Park Test highlighted 3 Things and 2 of them are:
1. Pollard stepping into the spotlight and going to the line with his carries and either running through or flat passing to the outside backs plus excellent exit kicking.
2. The biased role of local Stadium TV Directors/Producers.


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Nov 2014, 13:47
#35
20 Nov 2014, 13:47#35
 Hakwa, the bigscreen was used to get a Stormers player binned in Christchurch 2 or 3 years ago already. Your Mr Read also used a bit of showmanship to get the crowd involved. It's called the home advantage.  
— END OF THREAD —

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