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FORUM / RUGBY /  The Springbok backline as an Attacking Unit

The Springbok backline as an Attacking Unit

Started by clevermike7 REPLIES248 VIEWS· 07 Nov 2013, 10:57
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Nov 2013, 10:57
#1
07 Nov 2013, 10:57#1

The Springbok backline for the first time this year showed some improvement as a unit insofar as attacking rugby is concerned.   Last year it really was "dead"   from that perspective - whatever tries were scored by backline players resulted from individual efforts - the backline attacks were never of any consequence.

 

The present backline for Saturday is basically the same as the one used in 2010-2011 with some differences in personnel used in some tests.  Basically last year was a backline attacking unit really only noticeable in the Wallaby test in Pretoria.

 

However - lets just look at the individual players and then see why the unit malfunctioned virtually continuously from 2010 until 2012:-

 

Patrick Lambie

 

There is always a question mark insofar s Lambie is concerned - is he a better flyhalf or is he really a full back?   Last year Lambie got only playing time in the EOYT at flyhalf - where he had to replace the desperately poor and out of form Morne Steyn.

 

This year he never got a chance to start in tests at flyhalf and he is only starting in the test on Saturday because of the fact that at last Meyer realized how poor an option Kirchner really is.  

 

Lambie is to my mind a much better flyhalf than he is a full back and that has been a proved throughout his career.   As such he is likely not to be a major part of the effective attacking play by the Springbok backline.

 

JP Pietersen

 

Here we have a really interesting player who has been a regular in Springbok rugby since 2006.   Now lets look at his try-scoring abilities.   In the six years he was playing as a Springbok - he scored only 14 tries - 5 of those in the 2007 WC and the English to last year.   The other 9 tries was scored in test matches in 4 years - where he averaged 10 tests per year - on average circa 1 try per every four tests he played in.

 

The same trend was noticeable in the Super series.   After showing some real  spark in 2007 - he scored no tries in the Super series  in 2008.   He managed to score no tries in Super 15 this year as well.  A major problem is that unlike Habana he does not look for work.  His other problem is he is relatively slow for a wing - a speedster he definitely is not.   On the positive side he is a strong runner with ball in hand.

 

In reality Pietersen's claims to fame in reality is as a defender - not a very good attacking player at all.   If you expect anything other than that - you are living in a dream world.   

 

Jacque Fourie

 

According to the SARU website Fourie has played for the Springboks in 69 tests.   During that time he scored 32 tries for the Springboks - of which 12 was against major international teams - 4 against the All Blacks, 6 against the Wallabies 1 against the British Lions and 1 against England.   The other 20 tries were against weaker opposition.  He played in 16 tests against Australia and 13 against New Zealand .

 

The above analysis indicates that he is really a very average player form a try-scoring perspective.   Against stronger opposition he managed to score 1 try in every 3 matches played - definitely not a house on fire.

 

Fourie's best years were in the period 2003 to 2009.   He is 30 years of age at present and has been playing in Japan for the past two years after playing his last test for SA in 2011.   The big question mark is - is he going to be an attacking proposition in the backline on Saturday and in future?

 

Based on past indicators insofar as Fourie is concerned,  as well as the fact that players from Japan and other NH clubs are not really top class when returning to play for their Super series and international teams, I am not at all convinced that he would play a major part in backline attacks and is likely to score very few tries in tests in future.   A gamble at the best of times.

 

Habana and De Villiers       

 

Top class - no doubts about them.

 

Morne Steyn

 

Morne played in 51 tests for SA and in all tests played he scored 8 tries - 3 of which were against very poor Italian sides   For the rest he was very, very poor as a try-scorer.    That on its own is not the norm really - from a backline attacking perspective one has to consider his performances as a pivot in backline play/

 

Since he start of his career Morne was never really a top flyalf insofar as attacking backline play Is concerned.  His real asset was always his goal kicking abilities - fot the rest he was average to poor as a flyhalf.

 

On test level Morne was -

 

*   never really rated as a flyhalf who could play an acceptable role in attacking backline play; and

 

*  his strategic kicking was regarded as a basis for attacking play.

 

Morne's main problems were always - 

 

*   a lack in ball sense and ability to red the games;

*   a lack of any ability to attack the gain line himself;

*   predictability - opposing teams know what to expect from him and take counter-measures;

*   standing too deep in the pocket and being ineffective in his passing gam - thus neutralising attacking options of the backline.

 

Meyer realised the latter deficiency and this year instructed him to stand flatter, kick less and pass the ball faster and more effectively to the outside players in the backline.   The strategy worked - but the real weapon was Willie le Roux - who made a real difference in attacking play.   Will it be effective without Le Roux?   Looking at the other players involved the answer is no - the backline will revert to the dead attacking backline of the past.

 

Not really a top international flyhalf and will never make the grade in attacking backline play.

 

Fourie Du Preez

 

Du Preez started his international career in 2004 and played in 65 tests for he Springboks.  From a try-scoring perspective he scored 14 tries for the Springboks.  He became known as a good distributor of the ball, as well as  a food defender and by 2008 was regarded as the best scrummy in the world.  His passing game was varied - but also substantially influenced by the Bulls method of play - namely to frequently pass the ball back to the forwards.   

 

From the perspective of attacking backline play Du Preez in his earlier years were vey good, but the combination with Morne Steyn substantially changed all that.  

 

Du Preez (at 31 years of age) has been playing rugby in Japan since 2011.   He came back and  played brilliantly when he came from the bench in the RC game against the Pumas in  Soweto this year - but at the time of his entering the game the Springboks was running riot over the hapless Pumas.   In the subsequent games where he started he was very average in the Wallabies game and in the AB's game a week late he really looked like he ran out of steam.

 

The main question is - is Du Preez still the player he was prior to his departure for Japan.   Judging from the two most recent matches and his age it is clear that there are serious question marks on that score. 

 

I DO NOT THINK THE PRESENT BACKLINE WOULD BE AN ATTACKING BACKLINE AT ALL AND THAT IT IN FACT A RETURN TO THE RATHER DISMAL LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE SINCE 2010. 

     

 

  

 

 

      

 

             

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
07 Nov 2013, 11:17
#2
07 Nov 2013, 11:17#2
 
All this nonsense your waffling doesn't change the fact that Morne is a test match winning fly half ... many times over.

That Jaque Fourie is vastly superior to JJ Engelbrecht  and always will be.

That Patrick Lambie is vastly superior to Zane Kirchner and will get better and better.

That Fourie Du Preez is streets ahead of Ruan Pienaar.

That JP Pietersen is vastly superior to Basson and that he brings loads of experience to the mix which the inexperienced Willie will learn from.

We both know that Willie Le Roux is one for the future and that he'll get a run. He still has to prove though that he's better than JP. This tour will bring closure to a lot of unanswered questions.

In other words, Mike ... the above nonsense is not factual ... it's an opinionated piece of rubbish that you usually come up with.

Please make sure that you CLEARLY state it's only your opinion ... which at the best of times is steeped in complete ignorance.

Thanks a lot!!!




BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
07 Nov 2013, 12:37
#3
07 Nov 2013, 12:37#3
 Mike some legitimate question marks over players and regarding which even cc realises will be answered by this tour.Lambie looks to me to be a better flyhalf than 15. Fourie Du Preez how will he go. He still has the rugby brain but does not have the break he used to have. Jaque Fourie - well who knows as we havent seen him for some time. JP I agree lacks pace and hence the lack of tries. Also he has not played in an attacking Bok backline for much of his career.
What Meyer is probably aiming to do is to hammer away in the forwards. Stop the Welsh scoring through solid defence and bring on Willie and JJ to rip them apart later in the game.Meyer wants to test players and the only way to do that is to play them in hard tests. Meyer is also aware that an under 20 player like Jan needs time and is buying it by bringing in Jaque Fourie. Ditto Bakkies re Steph. He is not going to thow Steph into test rugby. He wants to ease him in. Perhaps Du Toit will start against Scotland with Bakkies. By the time we play France Meyer will pick what he then thinks is his best side. I dont think anybody can be re ally certain how a player like Jaque will go.

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
07 Nov 2013, 13:11
#4
07 Nov 2013, 13:11#4
 
You are repeating what I've already said several times over to him, Hen Pecked ... just you've dumbed it up a bit ... your usual style of lingo ...  moron

Guess you also thought Mike needed it explained that way before he'd grasp it.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Nov 2013, 14:20
#5
07 Nov 2013, 14:20#5

Clean Cut

 

You are not getting it - are you?   I am not comparing players with others here.   I am looking at why our backline was so unprodu8ctive as an attacking unit in 2010 and 2011  - when most of the backline players in the team on Saturday were  regulars in the Springbok team.  

 

In doing it I am looking at the individuals making up the backline and their performance records and what to expect on Saturday and with that backline combination in future.  I am not subjective and anti any players - I am merely stating their general performances and the tendencies they have displayed in the past.

 

You talk about how many tests Morne won for SA and see what that really have some reality attached to it.   The Springboks played Australia and New Zealand 23 times with the following results:-

 

       Australia   -   Win    5

                           Lose   7

 

      New Zealand  Win     4

                           Lose   7     

 

That indicates a winning percentage of 39,13% in the test plays and does not indicate that More is a match winner - rather a cog in the wheel of a substantially dysfunctional team.   His goal kicking was his major contribution and he may have contributed by kicking at goal to some wins - I grant you that - but missed kicks also meant the loss of some tests - a classical example being the Dunedin test last year.

 

I am saying that some of the players have clear deficiencies as attacking players - some like Pietersen are good defenders - but brings very little to the team as attacking players.   That is not based on prejudice - it is based on fact.   In discussing Pietersen's career as a player, the following was said in Wikipedia about him:-

 

"The top try-scorer in the 2007 Super 14 failed to score even one in 2008, a fact acknowledged by both AJ Venter and Stefan Terblanche in the October 2008 edition of SA Sports Illustrated."

 

*Pietersen is widely regarded for his outstanding defence. His cover defence being the saving grace of the Springbok's 2008 End of Year Tour, manfully keeping the Welsh at bay, and dominating his opposite Shane Williams."

 

The above quotations indicate some real question marks about his attacking abilities (he in fact scored comparatively few tries playing for the Springboks) - but lauded him for defence.  That is in essence what I said about him - but since I was dealing with attacking capacity of players - he is not really the best around.   That is a fact.  

 

The other point you are missing is that most of the players mentioned are or will soon be on the wrong side of 30.   That means two things, namely -

 

*    they are at a stage of their careers where there is no real development to improve career-long deficiencies; and

*    in a period in their careers when there is with rare exceptions decline setting in insofar as  performances are concerned

 

In essence the players mentioned have in the main being part of a substantially  unsuccessful backline attacking team and that fact worries me.   It also is indication that we are not really advancing in that respect as a team - but staying stagnant and may in future start deteriorating and may even go lower than the lows achieved in 2010 and 2011. 

 

 

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
07 Nov 2013, 18:19
#6
07 Nov 2013, 18:19#6

Common Mike.

You are implying that the back line needs to be replaced because of their so called "attacking deficiencies" ... 

You want to get rid of Du Preez, Morne, Jaque, and JP.

You also do not like Pat at 15 so he too must go.

So we're now left with Jean and Habana. They as far as your concerned are the only worthy players in our back line.

So that's 5 of the 7 gone.

Going to the forwards, you wanna get rid of Vermeulen and Alberts in the back row as well as Flip at lock.

That's 3 of the 8 gone.

In other words you wanna change the starting 15 by more than 53%

Now I ask you ... with tears in my navy blue eyes ... is that using your head or is utter madness?

Take your time, Mike.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Nov 2013, 20:22
#7
07 Nov 2013, 20:22#7

Clean Cut

 

You are in fact making an assumption which I never intended.   I was just pointing out that the backline on Saturday can never ever be regarded as an attacking backline - as it was throughout 2010 through to 2012.   That is a statement of fact - not fiction.

 

I do not think it is necessary to get rid of all the players you mentioned.   That will obviously not be desirable and I realise fully that there are very few options really to get a better attacking backline in place.   I am not a JJ Engelbrecht fan for instance and Fourie might make the grade.  I say might because he is not the ideal 13 because of speed deficiency.   I for one - think that Meyer should place all three Japanese club players under the microscope and see what they really produce as a potential for future development.

 

One aspect of absolute certainty is that Morne Steyn is not an attacking flyhalf and if Meyer is ever to make headway with the attacking  backline concept - Morne needs to go.   Matter of fact a change at flyhalf is likely to solve half of the dead backline problems.   What I also think is that  the 2011 WC backline is not going to do any better in 2015 than they were in 2011 - so there is some major work to be done in that case.

 

You also misquoted me entirely on the back row issue.   The ony thing I said was that Vermeulen has a speed deficiency -  and that is a fact.   I never said he must be replaced in the immediate future - but did say that Arno Botha looks a good prospect in 2015.   What I did say is that Alberts is not good enough as a loosie and does not produce the goods in respect of 90% of the functions expected from loosies.   That in my opinion justifies his replacement.   You think otherwise - so I respectfully differ fopm you in that regard.

 

In essence I always was in favour of - the replacement of the following players in the squad aimed at improving the squad:-

 

  Zane Kirchner, Morne Steyn, Willem Alberts, Juamdre Kruger and Gurthro Steenkamp.

 

That is not as bad as you seems to think.   Kruger is already gone and I am sure Meyer was referring to amongst others Kruger and Steenkamp in his recent talk about the issue.   He got rid last year of Steyn at one stage - and that may be repeated.   Alberts will not last beyond Super 15 next year - I am sure of that.             

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Nov 2013, 00:16
#8
08 Nov 2013, 00:16#8

Mozart

 

Whenever somebody write something to indicate that things are different from what you like it to be it is always interesting to see your response.   In this case it is evident that  your ideal backline may not be as ideal as you pretend it to be.   So you do your ordinary - you go into the habit to ignore the posting or pretend you have not seen it or it is too long for you to read.   I really expected  a virulent denial of the facts as provided above an at least an answer that I am lying about it.  Come now - let us have your pearls of wisdom in this case.

 

 

 

— END OF THREAD —

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