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FORUM / RUGBY /  The Springboks’ game plan requires evolution, not complete reconstruction; The ROAR

The Springboks’ game plan requires evolution, not complete reconstruction; The ROAR

Started by Just_win43 REPLIES577 VIEWS· 28 Jul 2014, 20:49
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Jul 2014, 20:49
#1
28 Jul 2014, 20:49#1

When I was young and naive I would sit in front of the tellie, watch the Springboks play and yell in protest.

‘Run the ball! Just run the damn ball!’ was usually what I would say, and not once but about a billion times.

Now when I say young and naive I mean in rugby terms, I’m only 20 years old. I became acquainted with the game they play in heaven in 2012, or more specifically during the 2011 World Cup.

My father, the second most knowledgeable rugby brain I know, had been watching and playing rugby since he was seven. But I, like my brother, had never taken to the appeal. But nevertheless as I did with Proteas in cricket and Bafana Bafana in football I watched the World Cup with him out of patriotism for my country.

And that’s where my rugby addiction began, strangely enough with the opening game: New Zealand versus Tonga.

After this game I was eager to see the Springboks in action when they took on Wales. When the time finally came I was both entertained and left wanting. The difference between watching the All Blacks and Springboks play was tangible.

It was clear and obvious that the All Blacks ran the ball very skillfully and the Springboks relied heavily on their power and their boot. After the Boks’ dismissal and the All Blacks’ coronation I eagerly wanted to learn more of the game and that is when my father explained every detail.

Fast forward to 2014.

After two years of contemplating, research, debate and countless hours of watching every Springboks, All Blacks and Wallabies games I could find since the 1980s here is my take on the Springbok game plan, how it needs to evolve and what it’s currently doing right.

The misconception I find among most South Africans is that we all want the Boks to play a carbon copy game of the All Blacks and Wallabies. I used to feel that way too, as I highlighted in the second sentence of this article. But after much deliberation I find that to be a mistake.

The All Blacks have their own unique approach, as do the Wallabies, it’s something ingrained in their histories and therein lies its beauty. It would be a crime to emulate these styles.

Make no mistake there’s a lot to learn from these magnificent teams, but applying a copy-paste method would be a mistake. Rather learn from them as they learn certain aspects from us.

I feel that the Springboks must still rely on their traditional strengths. They are their dominant set-phase and exceptional tactical, goal kicking and physical dominance. At their best no team on the planet can match the Springboks in these regards.

But their mistake is the over-reliance on these factors. Dominating these
aspects of rugby is always a great platform but it alone cannot win you games or at
least every game you play.

Balancing it out with running rugby and all round skill will help a lot.

Realistically the Springboks won’t ever match the All Blacks or Wallabies in running
rugby. It is possible but not probable, it’s just not in our development. But the Boks don’t need to outmatch them they just need to combine it with their true specialist strengths.

This is where I believe the Boks should draw inspiration from the Waratahs team of 2014. The Waratahs have combined the physicality most South African teams possess with the skillful play all the Australian teams possess. I imagine something similar would benefit the Boks.

There is no need to ditch their strengths but they must incorporate other certain aspects to their game like running good lines, learning to offload in the tackle and using more mobile forwards in the back line, like the All Blacks do with Kieran Read.

Imagine a Springboks team that does everything it does now but also has the ability to run the ball, offload and add diversity. Soften the opponent up and kicking for territory with the current style and suddenly strike with a free-flowing back line move. It would be a hard style to defend against.

Now, as I mentioned, my father is the second most knowledgeable rugby brain I know but the most knowledgeable rugby brain I know, sadly, isn’t me. It’s former Springboks coach and current SuperSport analyst Nick Mallet.

Mallet is very much disliked in South Africa because of his direct approach in commentary. In other words, when the Springboks are totally pathetic he will say so in those direct words, no beating around the bush.

But certain things he highlighted in 2012 and 2013 made a lot of sense for me.

He highlighted after the 16-16 draw against Argentina in 2012 that the Springboks’ ball carriers run into contact with a flawed technique. Looking closely at their big ball runners most of the Boks have the tendency to go to ground out of free will far too early than they should.

They make contact and fall to the ground, most likely with the assumption that doing so will secure a fast recycle. But this doesn’t put the opposition on the back foot. The Boks possess the best ball carriers in the world and should capitalize on that.

Mallet continued to say that for our game plan to work they must look to put in a leg-drive in the initial contact. It stands to reason that a retreating defence will be more vulnerable to a second phase of attack.

In 2013 both Mallet and former All Blacks coach John Mitchell highlighted another problem in the Springboks game.

Yes, indeed. Passion.

The Springboks represent a country politically, financially and racially in turmoil. The national government, the ANC, is in constant dispute with SARU for transformation. Not only that but they also carry the burden of living up to the legend of the 1995 World Cup.

But the biggest may be the pressure of being the team that former South African president Nelson Mandela chose to unite the country with.

“The Springboks rely far too much on passion,” Mitchell said.

“When they take to the field you can see it in their body language. They know the state of nation and they’re just too eager to win for the country before the match even started.

“When they fall behind they’re easily consumed by panic and they become rash and desperate. Passion can only get you so far.”

In contrast, the All Blacks switch off and become one-minded in their approach to perfect their performance. This is why they are so patient and clinical.

The Springboks need to understand that the game has evolved. The success they had in 2007 and 2009 can never be taken away from them, but to become the dominant force they once were they need to evolve as well, and keep up with the game.

This is my best potential squad of 23, excluding injury and commitments.

1. Tendai Mtawarira (186cm, 120kg)
2. Bismarck du Plessis (188cm, 114kg)
3. Francois Malherbe (190cm, 123kg)
4. Eben Etzebeth (205cm, 125kg)
5. Lodewyk de Jager (206cm, 123kg)
6. Francois Louw (190cm, 114kg)
7. Willem Alberts (193cm, 120kg)
8. Duane Vermeulen (193cm, 116kg)

9. Fourie du Preez (182cm, 90kg)
10. Handre Pollard (189cm, 96kg)
11. Bryan Habana (180cm, 94kg)
12. Jean de Villiers (190cm, 103kg)
13. Jaque Fourie (190cm, 105kg)
14. Damian de Allende (189cm, 105kg)
15. Willie le Roux (185cm, 90kg)

16. Coenie Oosthuizen (187cm, 127kg)
17. Jannie du Plessis (188cm, 121kg)
18. Adriaan Strauss (185cm, 111kg)
19. Pieter-Steph du Toit (201cm, 115kg)
20. Schalk Burger (193cm, 114kg)
21. Cobus Reinach (175cm, 85kg)
22. Patrick Lambie (178cm, 87kg)
23. Francois Steyn (191cm, 110kg)

With the proper guidance and evolution in game plan and tactics I believe this Springboks team has the ability to make a permanent mark in rugby history. The Springboks’ game plan requires evolution as the game of rugby evolves to stay competitive.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Jul 2014, 20:53
#2
28 Jul 2014, 20:53#2
The author is a young pup but many bok supporters will like his thinking.
MA
MachiavelliClub Pro323 posts
28 Jul 2014, 20:54
#3
28 Jul 2014, 20:54#3
 South African coaches seem hell bent on coaching natural talent out of players and replacing it with a suicide tendency.  
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
28 Jul 2014, 21:32
#4
28 Jul 2014, 21:32#4
South Africa scored the most tries on average out of any team in the world last year- many of them by backline players. 
I think their was some major improvements to the attacking rugby, however this may come down more to the influence of Willie Le Roux, rather than the coaches game plan. He is a very creative player coming in at 2nd reciever of multi-phase play. His passing skills are significantly better than the average player in SA.
In terms of the SuperXV teams though, the backline play took a major step backwards this year. 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Jul 2014, 21:52
#5
28 Jul 2014, 21:52#5
Telling comments:  I find among most South Africans is that we all want the Boks to play a carbon copy game of the All Blacks and Wallabies. I used to feel that way too, as I highlighted in the second sentence of this article. But after much deliberation I find that to be a mistake.
I feel that the Springboks must still rely on their traditional strengths. They are their dominant set-phase and exceptional tactical, goal kicking and physical dominance (Then why oh why play matfiled!!!!!!!!!!!!). At their best no team on the planet can match the Springboks in these regards.

The Waratahs have combined the physicality most South African teams possess with the skillful play all the Australian teams possess. I imagine something similar would benefit the Boks.(Agreed we are getting the balance better now - But warts were actaully ouit gunned at forward by Brumbies - hence play Skelton at lock and move Potgeiter to 7)

but they must incorporate other certain aspects to their game like running good lines, learning to offload in the tackle and using more mobile forwards in the back line, like the All Blacks do with Kieran Read.(We need more speed in the loose trio when playing OZ and NZ. I ahve been saying this for some time. Coetzee, Vermuelen and Louw would be an improvement.)

Imagine a Springboks team that does everything it does now but also has the ability to run the ball, offload and add diversity. Soften the opponent up and kicking for territory with the current style and suddenly strike with a free-flowing back line move. It would be a hard style to defend against. (EXACTLY SO)

MALLET HAS AN ACUTE RUGBY BRAIN Springboks’ ball carriers run into contact with a flawed technique. Looking closely at their big ball runners most of the Boks have the tendency to go to ground out of free will far too early than they should. (WELL THE GOING TO GROUND AND NOT OFF LOADING ETC IS A FACET OF PLAY WHERE AN IMPROVEMENT MUST BE MADE - WE ALL SHOULD KNOW THIS BY NOW)
The national government, the ANC, is in constant dispute with SARU for transformation. AND HAVE STUFFED UP THE CURRENCY IN AN APPALLING FASHION SO NOW ARE PLAYERS HAVE LEFT IN DROVES. T HIS GUY HAS A VERY GOOD APPRECIATION OF A NUMBER OF ISSUES FACING THE BOKS AND CERTAINLY UNDERSTANDS WHAT IS NEEDED IN TERMS OF PLAYING STYLE
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Jul 2014, 22:05
#6
28 Jul 2014, 22:05#6
 Exactly right Sharkbok the Boks are scoring enought tries and it could get better.

1. Tendai Mtawarira (186cm, 120kg)
2. Bismarck du Plessis (188cm, 114kg)
3. Francois Malherbe (190cm, 123kg)
4. Eben Etzebeth (205cm, 125kg)
5. Lodewyk de Jager (206cm, 123kg)

6. Coetzee 109 kg
7. Francois Louw (190cm, 114kg)

8. Duane Vermeulen (193cm, 116kg)

Nice 944 kg mobile pack

9.   Fourie du Preez (182cm, 90kg)
10. Handre Pollard (189cm, 96kg)
11. Bryan Habana (180cm, 94kg)
12. Jean de Villiers (190cm, 103kg)
13. Dallende (190cm, 105kg)
14. Hendricks/JP (189cm, 103kg)
15. Willie le Roux (185cm, 90kg)

16. Marcell van der Merwe (187cm, 127kg)
17. Jannie du Plessis (188cm, 121kg)
18. Adriaan Strauss (185cm, 111kg)
19. Pieter-Steph du Toit (201cm, 116kg)
20. Schalk Burger (193cm, 114kg)
21. Cobus Reinach (175cm, 85kg)
22. Patrick Lambie/ Frans Steyn (178cm, 87k/110 kg)
23. Jan Serfontein ( 98kg)


A few ammendments to his team. Coenie is a no no as he cant scrum. Alberts must go due to low work rate and lack of pace.

That side coudnt give the wee abs a severe thumping. My fear is Meyer will revert back to wee matfiled and some guys beyond their best days. 

Seldom seen as much sense in one post.


SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
29 Jul 2014, 02:08
#7
29 Jul 2014, 02:08#7
 Meyer is a fantastic coach, the 2nd best coach in the world. The only criteria that let's him down is his selection but everything else he's fantastic, man motivator, tactical awareness, gameplan and the culture in the team.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Jul 2014, 12:23
#8
29 Jul 2014, 12:23#8
 Beeno
You are wrong with teh numbering of your team - the reserve hooker is always no 16.  the loose ehad prop no 17 and the tighthead one no 18.  Marcell Cotzee is 191cm - you got his weight right though.
Interesting that you suggest that Coetzee plays as openside flanker and Louw at blindside.  I also think to have both of them in the Springbok side but have their position other way around.
Fourie du Preez is not available for the RC and the EOYT.   So it is time to get new blood in and I would start out by looking at Reinach in the first instance.  If he does well enough in the forthcoming RC and EOYT - it is unlikely that Meyer would go back to Du Preez - other than perhaps on the bench.  The latter is not getting any younger and he has slowed down considerably in Japan. 
The further the Springboks stay away from Francois Steyn - the better.   White's game plan was built around him and ultimately went to pieces because he is not suitable as either a center or a flyhalf.   I would say that the backline reserves should be Hougaard, Lambie/Goosen and Serfontein.               
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Jul 2014, 17:04
#9
29 Jul 2014, 17:04#9
 ou maaaikie I changed some players around from his list as I explained.
My team would simply shatter the wee abs no doubt about it. 
I do hope Dr Mozzzz reads thIS artiCle and gets back on trA ck after a spell in the doldrums.Ditto snapster who goes off on tangents not quite seeing the wood from the trees.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
30 Jul 2014, 11:17
#10
30 Jul 2014, 11:17#10
 Bringing this post up to the top as it is compulsory reading for oaks battling to understand Bok rugby.Snapster has no clue at all!
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
30 Jul 2014, 11:40
#11
30 Jul 2014, 11:40#11

Beeno you did note that this article was written by a kid, lol

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
30 Jul 2014, 11:51
#12
30 Jul 2014, 11:51#12
 Out of the mouths of babes JW. These are in fact the views of his father who really understood bok rugby. 
By random coincidence Jw you have come up with a gem!  It is a bit deep for oaks like snapster but one has to make a start. Dr Mozzz must study it and compre hende!


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jul 2014, 11:54
#13
30 Jul 2014, 11:54#13
Beeno 
Mozart thinks that because some of us want to see some changes to the Springboks line up - we want to throw out the game plan completely.   What most of us wants to see is the evolution of the present plan by ensuring that key players are better in execution.
Th problem is we need players actually capable of executing the game plan without being told what they have to do in advance.  My problem is that players - especially those in the backline - must be able to read the game and adjust their play accordingly.   
Too many backline players use the wrong running line through running at the first defender and crashballing - instead of l unning lines that could draw in multiple defenders and thus creating space for others.   The secondary problem is a weakness in passing and off-loading.    
Players like the Steyns are totally incapable to read games and use ball sense as a weapon.   Their passing and off-loading is basically non-existent - and if they off-load the ball ever it is of zero benefit to the recipients.   A further problem is the erratic kicking game of players - and even worse, the inability of players to realize whn to kick and when not to kick.   
De Villiers is a different kettle of fish 0 a thinking player that knows how to optmize situations during the game.   I have seen some real beauties from De Allende as welli in Super 15 this year.
The thinking backline players this year  included a number of players that should be the core of the team.  
We must at all times ensure that our Tight 5 comprises of the ebst players available.   Last year Meyer was toying around with Juandre Kruger - who ws sub-par (he lacks grunt? -  this year he is looking at Matfield and Bakkies.  The former never had grunt and although he is solid in line outs - he basically lacks physicality completely and will weaken our Tight 5 considerably - should he eb elected to play.   Bakkies Botha is not up to test standard anymore.   That used to be Bakkies strong point in the past - but there was virtually no sign of that in his recent games for the Springboks.   One can only hope that Meyer does not fall into the Matfield - Bakkies trap - it would be a disaster. 
The only loosie who constantly fail;s to deliver a comprehensive loosie service remains Alberts.   He really is the weak point in the Springboks forward pack and there needs to be a way where we could get out of that situation.   
The key changes to make the execution of the game plan better is in fact in the following positions:
  13, 10, 9, 7 and 5.
Time to gt rid of the donkeys and non-thinking players (the robotic ones) with poor ball handling skills and must be told in advance what they must do.   Essentially there is a serious need for variation in the game depending on the circumstances.- prefdictability is a curse that only helps opposing teams.         
  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
30 Jul 2014, 15:52
#14
30 Jul 2014, 15:52#14
 Ou kakpraat on the go again.

"Players like the Steyns are totally incapable to read games and use ball sense as a weapon.   Their passing and off-loading is basically non-existent - and if they off-load the ball ever it is of zero benefit to the recipients."

Morne normally passes as often as he kicks and in many cases he passes more times than what he is kicking. Go check.

"
Last year Meyer was toying around with Juandre Kruger - who ws sub-par (he lacks grunt? -  this year he is looking at Matfield and Bakkies."

He was using Juandre when suster Bekker was injured..................... again. He used both Matfield because Eben and PSDT were injured........... again.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
30 Jul 2014, 16:20
#15
30 Jul 2014, 16:20#15
 Note the trend cerudunce windpomp. Picking pap locks at 5 - a fatal mistake. Juandre was more physical than wee victor I grant you but still not a test class lock. 
Willemse and Loodt and Flip and even Bakkies could be picked. Ruan Botha ahead of wee Victor. Never a need to pick victor. 


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jul 2014, 17:17
#16
30 Jul 2014, 17:17#16
 Doffies
Morne's passing is as  ineffective as his aimless kicks are.  Because h stand still when receiving balls and norrmally way too deep in the pocket - the poor recipient can do next to nothing with the balls passed to him.    That together with is aimless kicking made him into a robotic player - who kicks when he should pass and pass when eh should kick.   He is pathetic and Stade Francais found that out soon after his arrival in Paris.   
   
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
30 Jul 2014, 17:47
#17
30 Jul 2014, 17:47#17
 Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11068 RE: The Springboks’ game plan requires evolution, not complete reconstruction; The ROAR
July 30, 2014, 14:20:49  Note the trend cerudunce windpomp. Picking pap locks at 5 - a fatal mistake. Juandre was more physical than wee victor I grant you but still not a test class lock. 
Willemse and Loodt and Flip and even Bakkies could be picked. Ruan Botha ahead of wee Victor. Never a need to pick victor. 




You are missing the point mamparra. The so-called "ysters" were all injured as usual, and Juandre had to step in. You big hero, Andriesa Bekker was the main culprit. Talk about pap. There is a pap donner if you have ever seen one.

victor. 



clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11967 RE: The Springboks’ game plan requires evolution, not complete reconstruction; The ROAR
July 30, 2014, 15:17:33  Doffies
Morne's passing is as  ineffective as his aimless kicks are.  Because h stand still when receiving balls and norrmally way too deep in the pocket - the poor recipient can do next to nothing with the balls passed to him.    That together with is aimless kicking made him into a robotic player - who kicks when he should pass and pass when eh should kick.   He is pathetic and Stade Francais found that out soon after his arrival in Paris.   

Your opinion and that opinion is worth shit. Every time you are shown up about your hate campaign, you stop arguing and disappear like a wet dream. As was the case with your whole SF bench player BS. It is not even worth revisiting it, because the facts will be thrown in your face............ again, and you will throw your toys and disappear...................again.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jul 2014, 19:04
#18
30 Jul 2014, 19:04#18
 Dof Doos - Ceradunce - Windpomp - Ch oose which one you prefer
Your argument is worthless - there were other better locks than Juandre that Meyer could pick.   He decided on Juandre and that was the end of the story.   So now backj to defense of the Stade Francais Reject - who get to start a few games in the absence of their first choice flyhalf.
Morne was always pathetic - Go and tread his ESPN profile summary - that tells it all - stupid bum. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
30 Jul 2014, 19:19
#19
30 Jul 2014, 19:19#19
 Well name those locks you stupid fucking idiot.

I have addressed your SF bench bullshit on more than one occasion and I even showed you how Steyn started ahead of Plisson AFTER the 6N. So, fuck you. I am not going to go through that whole exercise again. I am done with it because you will piss off from this thread, just like you always do and just come up with the exact same bullshit again in a few days time. So, if you want to keep on writing that crap and have a wank every time you do so, feel free.

You are the one who talk of Moz harping on about one incident but all you can talk about is the Ellis Park test and the SF bench story. You use that as an example and proof that Steyn's is an overall crap defender. I have given you numerous sets of data contradicting your opinion and what did you do? Silence is Golden as they say. Like the true coward that you are, you sneaked away with your leg between your legs................ again.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jul 2014, 22:37
#20
30 Jul 2014, 22:37#20
Dof Doos Simpleton  

There were the Van der Merwe's and Du Toit to start with - but Kruger got the mood because of his Blue Bulls connnection.  
 Mind you Kruger without grunt i s better than Slapgat without physical abilities and grunt.
Now for the Morne Story - He had a 20% missed tackle ratio last year ibn tests and that went up drastically in the Ellis Park test and was 25$ in botht the Welsh test and French test in November.   He came of early in the Welsh test - but it would have been worse.   
Have you read Morne's profile on ESPN - if you have you might realise that Morne would not get elected at flyhalf in any of the top 8 ranked teams in world rugby other than SA - but  why should he be in  the Springbok team?
He has been the worst flyhalf SA ever had and his only claim to fame is he can kick at goal - for the rest he belongs in the Witgatwortelfontein second team.  So duck off you dom doos.   
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
31 Jul 2014, 02:53
#21
31 Jul 2014, 02:53#21
 What VD Merwe are you talking about? Flip?

You do not have the faintest idea on how to interpret all those lists of "stats" that you like to quote. If I have to choose between a player attempting 10 tackles per game and he makes 6, as opposed to one who makes 3 out of only three because he as running away from from the other 7 opportunities, I know which one I would pick. Morne mostly has among the most number of tackles of all the back-line players. To prove this, you can even go look at exactly the Ellis Park test that you so love to cherish. Despite the four tackles that he missed, he still made 7. The rest of the back-line made 1,0,2,3,1 and 2 tackle each. The zero out of 5 tackles being none other  than Willie le Roux. You have never once made a comment on that. In total, Morne attempted 11 tackles in that test. He was in no way the kakkest back-line defender on the day.

This was the tackles by the rest of the backline, 1/2, 0/5, 2/1, 2/2, 1/2, 2/1 . With his 7/4 Morne was actually the best defender on the day. Now take that argument of yours and shove it up your arse for once and for all and fuck off.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 Jul 2014, 04:09
#22
31 Jul 2014, 04:09#22
 Just as I thought another string polluted by pure Oom strond. Morne has been tackling at 83 per cent in the tests since the RC. In the test we struggled to beat Wales he made every tackle. At Ellis Park he made more tackles than any other SA back. And the tackles he missed included extremely difficult ones like the one where Smith wrong footed him covering in space. It was no disgrace at all. As for his inability to pass....in that very test he threw well timed long passes to set up two Bok tries.Watching this moron try to interpret stats is the daily joke.
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
31 Jul 2014, 04:38
#23
31 Jul 2014, 04:38#23

 Cleverpoes-AKA Mike...

 

Has a problem with the Bulls and Alberts and Frans.Arguing with this sod is the same as having an argument with crash test dummy...

 

Go figure.I don't engage in arguments with people that can never compromise or admit when they are wrong.It one sided and frankly it creates strive.He is a fucking dumb idiot.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Jul 2014, 07:27
#24
31 Jul 2014, 07:27#24
Mozart
Ar you bloody dim or are you worst.   Lets quote the ESPN profile on Steyn again:-
"Steyn struggled with his form in the 2011 Super Rugby campaign but kept his place in the Springboks side for the end of season Tri-Nations tournament. However - after a poor performance against the Wallabies, Steyn was told he was playing for his South Africa future in the Boks' second game of the tournament against New Zealand.

And that has been the story of Steyn's international career. He oscillates between Man of the Match performances and then costing his side valuable points with erratic kicking a week later. During 2010 he was the Boks' undisputed first choice No.10 and he kept that mantle during the 2011 World Cup but when Heineke Meyer took charge of the Boks then eventually he opted for Johan Goosen at No.10 towards the end of 2012."


Nobody is interrested in what happened in 20011 - what is pertiinent is what happened oer the past year.   Morne's tacxkling has been poor in the tests since Ells Park last year he made 26 tackles and missed 8.    That equates to a missed tackle ratio of 23,53%.     His tackling was solid in ONE of the 4 tests played. - in the other four games he was pathetic.   In any event - Morne has never been a sound flyhalf  - but he has gone backwards badly and that is not recognized by you.


Get real - the strond you publish is not only polluting this site - it is indicative of a person that has gone hysteric is trying to justify the unjustifiable.


    




CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
31 Jul 2014, 10:35
#25
31 Jul 2014, 10:35#25
 When are you ever going to wake up and smell the roses. When it suits you, you quote media articles to "support" your "facts". Just look at you, you fucking clown. You are always ready to throw your "stats" in our faces to negate whatever else is in the media. You are well-known to dispute and/or bend whatever other "media source" is used. The moment that your own "stats" backfire on you, as this "Ellis Park Test" BS that you keep on digging out, what do you do? You go running back to some piece of negative bullshit that you bumoed into at some stage. Poorly written and poorly researched by some unknown reporter. That piece was written by someone who do not even have the balls to put his name to the piece. With ten minutes of research I can find some info that could find info that would contradict every part of that load of junk.

As for the Ellis Park Test "stas", why are you running away from it now, you cowardice scumbag? Why don't you stay with that and discuss it. It it after all your forte, that set of stats. Or are you too scared that you might have to concede that the Boks followed and entirely different approach to that game?

Come on Mike, stick to the stats mate. Don't put your tail between your legs again.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Jul 2014, 11:51
#26
31 Jul 2014, 11:51#26
Mike no need complicate cerudunce windpomp life by asking him to choose between these two names. They go so well together!
Cerudunce Windpomp please your foul language is polluting the board. Please try and not get hysterical when debating rugby issues. There could be youngsters viewing or even posting here. A little maturity would go a long way.

Thanks
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Jul 2014, 11:56
#27
31 Jul 2014, 11:56#27
 Ceradyne
So lets look at wondeful Morne's Ellis Park stats:-
Steyn0/175/32/31501007/40/000/0
So what have we got here.   
*  One penalty kick and two try conversions - missed to try conversions - 60% success rate
*   Made 5 kicks - at least two aimless ones.  Did not know when to kick and when to pass.   One pass instead of a kick let to an AB try (Messam)   
*   Made 7 tackles and missed 4 (2 of which let to AB tries) -  35,4% missed tackle ratio.
Is the above is top stats for a flyhalf?   Definitely not - it is BS of the first order.  Why should anyone run away from dealing with the rubbish performance of Steyn - Dof Doos?
Why is Steyn not the front line flyhalf of Stade Francais if he is that good?    It is because he is clueless and useless - that it the real answer.   Morne has nevr been an international quality flyhalf and that is a fact.  He buggered up three of the last four tests against the AB's and that is a fact too.
You are constantly harping on about Steyn, Kirchner,  Bakkies Botha and Matfield -all Bulls and way past their sell-by date.   That is a fact too.   
Get over your Bulls mania - rather support the be st players in SA - not those that you like as a member of the Blue Bulls Idiot Support Club.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
31 Jul 2014, 13:34
#28
31 Jul 2014, 13:34#28
 Listen you stupid fucking fool. Why can't you stick to the one single issue that you have been harping on for ages. Geez, talk about harping on. I am sure that you have harped more about Morne Steyn alone than what I have done on Morne, Frans, Alberts, Victor and Bakkies all together. FFS, even if the conversation has fuck all to do with Morne Steyn, you find a way of dragging him into it.

Now, you have once again pulled in your most favourite Morne Steyn topic of all times, i.e. his defence in the infamous Ellis Park game. Despite putting the entire back-line defence of the Boks, in that particular game, in perspective for you, you still (for the umpteenth time) pulls out your little string of stats and you once again come up with your immature pathetic little "he has missed four out of eleven tackles" bullshit. Fuck it, can't you see the light? He has made 7 tackles in the game. The rest of the backline only fucking made 8 tackles between the lot of them. That is 8 (eight) successful tackles between seven players. On average it boils down to just more than one successful tackle per back-line player!!!!!!!!!!!! How does that compare with the seven that Morne made on his own? Explain that without trying to bullshit your way out of it again.

Once again, you are using one lousy little string of "stats" to prove how kak he is. I can produce numerous strings to "prove" how great he is, which is something that I have never said, BTW. How about this one:

FH M Steyn 1/0 31 14/6/5 39 2 1 2 3 3/0 0/0 0 0/0
or this one:

FH M Steyn 0/0 13 7/5/4 17 1 0 0 0 11/1 1/0 1 0/0
Yes, you wouldn't use them because they do not fit your underhanded little agenda, you fucking scumbag.

Do you really want to go to the "SF bench" story again, or can I just give you the link to the thread where it was discussed? I think I might still have it somewhere.

You should perhaps start to really compare players and approach them all on equal footing, instead of through your biased glasses. When so-called "great flyhalves" come under discussion there are always sighs like "Oh, to have a flyhalf like Henry Honniball again.......". Have you ever compared the two of them statistically? Allow me to show you something, and before you say decide that I am saying that Morne is the better flyhalf, forget it. That is not what I a saying. Just have a look and decide for yourself.

Matches played:
HH. 35
MS. 56

Matches started:
HH. 28
MS. 50
HH has started in just more than half the numbers of games than Morne Steyn. It is a very crude way of comparing but for for this exercise I am going from the assumption that Steyn should have achieved about double the figures that HH has done. Let's see where we end up.

Subbed:
HH.7
MS.6

Points
HH. 156
MS. 660. Not double but indeed 4.2 times that of Honnibal

Tries:
HH. 1
MS. 8
. (Remember the other day when you talked about Goosen scoring a try that MS would never have been able to make? That was on another thread that you disappeared from when I showed you a clip of MS scoring an identical try against none other than the All Blacks). Again....not double but indeed 8 times that of Honnibal

Conversions:
HH. 38
MS.79. Double HH's figure, which brings them on par for conversions. You have to remember, though, that conversions are also related to the number of tries scored by the team.

Penalties:
HH. 25
MS. 134. . Not double but indeed 5.4 times that of Honnibal.

Drop Goals:
HH. 0
MS. 8. Do I need to calculate the ratio between the two on this one as well?


@Beeno, the day that th is clown stop calling me a cunt will be the day that I stop swearing at him. Now get back in your hole.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Jul 2014, 15:02
#29
31 Jul 2014, 15:02#29
 Dof Doos - Ceraqdunce - Fuck Wit
Those stats are more than 4 years ago and not over the last two years.   In his whole career Morne had probably two good matches - the rest was all bullshit.  I am not interested in what he produced fur years ago - what has he done since?   Bugger up after bugger up.  
With Morne at flyhalf we will never beat the All Blacks - he is too robotic and predictable for that and his kicks are 70% real bullshit as was so aptly mentioned by the commentators in the Dunedin game.   All that because h is clueless in reading of the game and decision making - he has to be told in advance exactly what to do in games - that is why he does not know when to kick or pass - so he passes balls when he should kick and kick balls when he should  pass.   
Hell - but you are a daft and dom Doos.   
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
31 Jul 2014, 16:01
#30
31 Jul 2014, 16:01#30
 Another pathetic bullshit opinion. Not worth the time it takes to read all of it.

The question remains. Who else but Steyn. Bear in mind that Pollard only burst onto the scene a couple of months ago, before you try and answer. Don't even try and come up with "look at me running away" Johan Glaasen.


CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
31 Jul 2014, 16:09
#31
31 Jul 2014, 16:09#31
 Hey ou CleverPoeth. Here are some "fresher" stats for you:

FH Steyn 0/0 11 8/15/7 16 0 2 0 2 8/0 0/0 0 0/0
FH Steyn 0/0 13 13/25/8 55 0 0 0 5 11/1 1/0 0 0/0

Can we now have a look at the rest of the back-line defence for the "Ellis Park" test?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Jul 2014, 16:09
#32
31 Jul 2014, 16:09#32
 Anybody able to read games and play the role of a proper pivot to initiate positive responses.    That means Morne Steyn and Francois Steybn are out of contention.   No robotic player with deficient skill set and ball sense is needed in this case.
Morne should stay at Stade Francais - he may yet learn something of flyhalf play - but that is a remote hope.

Anyone of Pollard, Goosen and Lambie are twice the flyhalf the Steyn's will ever be.   They can read games and are thinking players - something Morne is NOT.     
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Jul 2014, 16:10
#33
31 Jul 2014, 16:10#33
Any clown who would select useless Morne Steyn over Goosen, Lambie or Pollard at 10 is not fit to call himself a rugby man........Vlagsht, that goes without saying when it comes to the likes of you and Moffie  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
31 Jul 2014, 16:56
#34
31 Jul 2014, 16:56#34
 Still nothing but fucked up pathetic opinions form two clowns. Let me ask you once again. When Lambie was injured, as was Goosen and since Pollard was not in the picture yet, who would you have selected. Probably Jantjies or Peter Grant or somebody?

In any case, back in 2012 when Goosen was having a good run, I believed in him, and I have lots of posts as proof that I rated him. But he has since had a melt-down and is nowhere. He has had one good test against a dilapidated Aus side, in 2012, and that was it. At this very moment, I would not select him ahead of Morne Steyn. That is my opinion, and if you think that same of my opinion as what I think of yours then so be it.

Ou Maaikie, you keep on coming up with you vague "he cannot read the game" bullshit  that is based upon one or two incidents but you have nothing substantial to back it up. You base your entire theory of these isolated  incidents and you fail to see anything beyond it. You keep on saying that Steyn cannot defend/tackle and produce your single little string of "proof". I have just given you four different examples. Two from two years ago and two very recent ones, yet they still count for fokol. What he has forgotten about flyhalf play, you will never learn in a life-time of studying and/or practising.

Since you cannot even get yourself to reply to my remarks about his "Ellis Park" defence issues, I will not even try to remind you about thread upon thread where you were shown up and where you silently sneaked away from.

@Saffex.. Gaan slaap, you bumbling idiot.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Jul 2014, 19:37
#35
31 Jul 2014, 19:37#35
 Ceradunce
Not one or two incidents - but strings of those - and of a continuous nature as well.    Morne is a nice guy - but he definitely cannot read games.  His main problem is he makes aimless and inaccurate kicks in the opposition half of the field - when possession  should not be handed over to the opposition, but the ball kept in hand.   Just go and watch the Dunedin game and the two kicks the commentators described as BS.
Just go and watch the England test in PE in June 2012 - when he kicked so much that the crowd ended up booing him.  The reason was he kicked the ball when there was a clear need to keep the ball in hand.
All the tests in 2012 showed pathetically poor performances - so much so that Meyer had no option but to drop him from the side.  The pretext was his poor goal kicking - the real reason was his poor performances as a whole.
Morne came back in 2013  and the real test came in the away games against Argentina, Australia and New Zealand .   In the Mendoza test he was pathetic with a totally disorganized backline because of Morne as the pivot.   Australia was weak and was easily handled.   New Zealand was the big problem.
The Eden Park test was messed u[ by the ref and the Springboks ended up having to play with 14 men.  They would have lost the game anyway - but Morne added badly to their problems by not finding touch with two penalties.   Both resulted in a changes of possession and in both cases tries were scored.   That is a fact as well.   
Whether you like it or not Morne was poor in the Ellis Park test last year and average in the French game - but  not up to standard in the first Welsh test.   His defense was better in teh second test - but he lost the plot in that game as well.
Morne - by all accounts a very nice person - is not a top flyhalf - he is at best very average.  The fact that he really did not end up impressing the Stade Francais coach centers in the main upon his deficient decision making.   Physically he is fine - but ....     
  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
31 Jul 2014, 21:15
#36
31 Jul 2014, 21:15#36
Strings he says. Jy praat kak man. You don't know what you are talking about. I have just shown you how shit your observational abilities are. You have been trying to tell us for months now how kak Morne was on defence at Ellis Park last year. I have just shown you that you have been talking kak for close on a year. I have just shown you that, defensively, he was actually way ahead of the rest of the back-line. So how you can expect me, or anybody else, to pay any attention of any of the bullshit that you post is beyond me. Your assessment of players is worth shit.

As for SF...... unless you start watching the games and follow the news about the club, starting at their own website, your opinion about what happens at the club is also worth shit. The same goes for Toulon.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 Jul 2014, 21:54
#37
31 Jul 2014, 21:54#37
Actually I dont particularly care what the English crowd or the NZ commentators say. Morne is a reliable test flyhalf and probably the number one choice in rugby to make a kick that matters. Given teams mostly get more than half their points through kicking, having the best in the world doing that for you is not something lightly discard ed....except by the twin fools.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2014, 00:53
#38
01 Aug 2014, 00:53#38
 Mozasrt
For every point Steyn got in for instance the Ellis Park test - he dumped 2 points through poor play and rank stupidit y.    Morne - the best in the world?   Are you dumb and daft as well?  He has an average 80% success rate in goal kicking - there are plenty of other goal kickers with a similar success rate.   I was hoping from a particle of sanity on your part - but that takes the cake.  
Morne is about the worst technical flyhalf in world rugby - with one point in his favour - he maintains more or less an 80% goal kicking success rate.   To have a dud thinking player as a pivot - what a joke!!!!!   And his defense over the past two years was way below requirements.   
Anyone thinking that More Steyn is an international level flyhalf is not a fool - he is a dumb and utter fool.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2014, 01:18
#39
01 Aug 2014, 01:18#39
 Dof  Doos, Ceradunce,  Fuck Wit
Dop you understand anything you dim doos?  I pointed out the figures in defence of Morne since the Ellis Park test and bar the second Welsh test this year 0 he was pathetic.  Last year his missed tackle ratio in all tests played was 19,8% inclusive of the Ellis Park test.  Since then his ratio was as follows:-
EOYT             -    20%Welsh series    -    18,2%
Any flyhalf with a worse record than 16% is a below par defender.   To hark back three or four years to try and find excuses is not only stupid - it is lunacy.
I said I did not watch all the games of SF - but those which I did watch was no compliment to Morne.   He is an occasional starting flyhalf doe  SF - if he was any good he would start in at least half the games.  In virtually all cases he did start - the reason was that a rookie by the name of Plisson was away on national duty.   
You really are dim - if facts hid you in teh face - you still are ttoo dumb to understand anything - you are a thick plank, so fuck off and stop talking BS. 
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
01 Aug 2014, 01:27
#40
01 Aug 2014, 01:27#40

 Dof  Doos, Ceradunce,  Fuck Wit

 

anything you dim doos?

 

you are a thick plank, so fuck off

 

If any poster should be banned from this site it surely has to be CleverMike.I have been banned(or so they tried) for similar offenses.

 


Now let us see if the Editor is going to be impartial.No one has to put up with this abuse.

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