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FORUM / RUGBY /  The utility prop...differences between tighthead and loosehead prop for the morons who debate fruitlessly

The utility prop...differences between tighthead and loosehead prop for the morons who debate fruitlessly

Started by generaltit16 REPLIES2,285 VIEWS· 11 Jul 2016, 19:21
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GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
11 Jul 2016, 19:21
#1
11 Jul 2016, 19:21#1
A former Irish prop explains just how different tighthead prop is from loosehead

Court tells The42 why the utility prop is becoming extinct.

EVEN AS LITTLE as four years ago in the lead up to the 2011 World Cup, Tom Court was as dual a prop as a dual prop could be. His appearances for Ulster invariably came with a number one on his back, while his role as the Irish impact sub tended to be shoring up the tighthead.

However, by this stage, the days of the utility prop were already numbered. While it would be another 12 months before test rugby required three front row substitutes, the 23-man squad – and the front row requirements that came with it – had become the norm at the club game.

With that, the scrum became all about specialists. Natural looseheads who were trained and capable as a tighthead focused more and more on their natural positions and vice versa, safe in the knowledge that they no longer had to be a jack of all trades.

And so it came together in 2015, in the first World Cup where six front row players had to be in every matchday squad, coaches had to take a chance.

Joe Schmidt’s options were plentiful. He could had Michael Bent, a strong loosehead with a chequered history at tight. He could have taken out-and-out loosehead Dave Kilcoyne given his fitness worries over Cian Healy, or he could have taken Leinster’s young tighthead Tadhg Furlong.

In the end, Furlong got the nod, with Schmidt opting for the powerful tighthead with limited loosehead experience, despite the continuous doubts over Healy’s fitness.

As a player who’s played at the highest level in both positions, Court explains just why Schmidt got it right with Furlong.

“I think selecting Tadhg Furlong is a great choice compared to somebody maybe like Michael Bent. He’s a young guy, he’s a local guy that’s come through. He’s probably not going to play a great deal but it’ll give him a taste of what’s to come.

“You’re always going to be better having a tighthead covering loose, than a loosehead covering tight. It’s one of those things where you really have to be playing in either position regularly to cover it properly.”

The problem for Bent was that while he is trained as a tighthead, his gametime in the position just hasn’t been enough. Last season, he had his best campaign since arriving in Ireland, but with just two starts for Leinster as a tighthead, Schmidt and Greg Feek had to establish which side of their scrum needed the most protection.

While Tadhg Furlong will potentially plug a hole at loosehead for Ireland, his selection isn’t likely to be the beginning a long and fruitful career as a utility man in the front row. It’s going to be one or the other.

“Obviously you can throw guys at a pinch if you need to cover a certain position but realistically it’s a specialist position and probably should have been for a while. It’s just one of those things where you can’t effectively play one or the other unless you’ve been playing a consistent amount of games or a good amount of match minutes at those positions.

 “There are a lot of props these days that say they’re a loosehead that covers tight or a tighthead that covers loose, but to be honest it’s a bit of a myth because there’s not really anyone out there anymore that can convincingly play both sides at an International level,” he adds.

The reason for this is the mechanics of each position. While both a tight and loosehead are ultimately using their right side to generate power, the specifics of each position differ greatly. For example, while plenty of looseheads will try to angle into the scrum to gain an advantage, doing that as a tighthead is disastrous, playing into your opponent’s hands.

With so much to go wrong at tighthead prop, the position has become rugby’s equivalent of a left tackle in American Football; unglamorous, yet structurally critical. The nuances of the position make the brain more powerful than brawn.

It certainly helps to be a big man with a number three on your back mind you, but if the technique isn’t inch perfect, you’re in for trouble. When Ireland played France during the Six Nations in February Mike Ross had more than 10kg on France’s Eddy Ben Arous, but struggled, with the French loosehead exposing him on a rare off-day.

“It’s one of those positions where if you can do well there and cement your position, you look at all these top teams around the world – Owen Franks, Dan Cole, Mike Ross, Castrogiovanni, all starting tightheads for their country for years now – it seems to be if you can get a guy who can lock that scrum down well and offer at least something outside of the scrum, they can pretty much monopolise that position.

“That’s why guys like Mike Ross can stay there as long as he has because it ends up being something where he knows where he has to get his body, he knows how he wants to feel when he’s in a scrum, and it just comes naturally, whereas younger guys are still trying to think about it and get that position right.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
12 Jul 2016, 01:37
#2
12 Jul 2016, 01:37#2
 Good read Mr Seb,highlights what a critical position tighthead is .You can have utility backs chopping and changing positions but not so the tighthead ,who is really the most important player on the field [ nothing to do with my playing only one position in both league and union of course ! ] .Any muggins who can run fast and catch a ball can be a sea-gulling wing of course .Played Rugby League for my hometown and Union for our school team and only ever as a tighthead ,when I joined the army and got to play I decided to try and pass myself off as anything other than a tighthead ,coach took one look at my ugly mug and says ' good heres my new tighthead ! " ...sigh ...
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 Jul 2016, 10:36
#3
12 Jul 2016, 10:36#3
 What does this Tom Court idiot know? It is all about the hooker. Just ask ComradeMike. Tsk
clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 23615RE: Allende 5 tackles made...3 missed
July 12, 2016, 10:19:38

 Mapoe was poor in the tests and I think he may do better on the wing.  De Jongh is definitely not a test standard player.   I still do not rate Strauss - Marx is a much better player than him and to my mind Strauss is a major part of the scrummaging problems of both the Springboks and the Bulls - whether you like it or not.    



    clevermike
     
    Status: Hall Of Fame 
    Posts: 23615An Objective look at the Springbok forward situation 
    June 20, 2016, 12:13:23

    There are two issues raised here – the most important is the issue of scrumming.   After watching the game a second time it was clear that our scrumming was defective – it was even worse when the props were  replaced  in the second half and that remains a fact.

    So why does the Bulls often have  scrumming problems  and the Lions are better at it?  Why does the Stormers have a scrumming problem at present as well.  The answer is simple – the role of the hookers.   Hookers are essential in scrumming – they must balance the scrumming effort and must contribute as much to scrumming as he props do.     Now lets go back to 2013 and look at the Cheetahs scrumming – it was poor.   So where is the scrumming problem originating?  The answer is clear – whenever Strauss is at hooker the s[removed]ming of any team he represented was poor.   The scrumming of the Stormers this year was badly affected by the fact that their hookers are not physically up to standard.

    The basic problem relates to the issue of the second shove in scrums as well – that is after the hooker has hooked the ball and when he is supposed to contribute to prevention of the second shove – it just does not happen with Strauss in the team.

    The scrumming problem will never be fixed while Strauss is the hooker.   The Lions seems never to have serious scrumming problems while Marx is the hooker –or when Van der Merwe replaces him.  I think that the problem will never be solved as long as Strauss is the hooker.   If he made a reasonable contribution on plays outside of scrumming – then he could be retained – but he does not.

    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 11:02
    #4
    12 Jul 2016, 11:02#4
     Dofdoos - ruined the thread again - stupid idiot.  This is about props and what you know about the hooker in scrumming can be summarised as being less in size that an office pin hole.   Ignorant - but always a moron.   That is an insult to moron - you have less bra in capacity than a morn can hope not to reach.   Are you stupid or don't you realize when you ruin margins of threads - dofdoos? 
    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 11:02
    #5
    12 Jul 2016, 11:02#5
     Dofdoos - ruined the thread again - stupid idiot.  This is about props and what you know about the hooker in scrumming can be summarised as being less in size that an office pin hole.   Ignorant - but always a moron.   That is an insult to moron - you have less brin capacity than a morn can hope not to reach.   Are you stupid or don't you realize when you ruin margins of threads - dof doos? 
    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 11:02
    #6
    12 Jul 2016, 11:02#6
     Dofdoos - ruined the thread again - stupid idiot.  This is about props and what you know about the hooker in scrumming can be summarised as being less in size that an office pin hole.   Ignorant - but always a moron.   That is an insult to moron - you have less brin capacity than a morn can hope not to reach.   Are you stupid or don't you realize when you ruin margins of threads - dof doos? 
    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 11:19
    #7
    12 Jul 2016, 11:19#7
     
    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 11:20
    #8
    12 Jul 2016, 11:20#8
     
    GE
    generaltitPro3,164 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 11:31
    #9
    12 Jul 2016, 11:31#9
    This is about props not hookers.

    Off the subject but yes hookers can obviously affect the scrummaging...not sure though
    if Adriaan Strauss does though

    Back to simple basics:

    Whether you believe referees blow up for crooked feeds or not, the hooker still has to strike for the ball. And this when he is under pressure from the opposition hooker and tight head (right-hand prop).

    He needs to make sure his set-up is solid and that he is in the best position to hook and then push once he has hooked the ball back. Here are a few tips for hooker positioning.

    Feet positions (your put-in)

    • Right foot in front of the left foot for the strike.
    • Hips should be slightly angled towards the ball.
    • The vast majority of weight on the left foot.
    • Unlike the props, hookers can move their feet around once the scrum has engagement. Hence some hookers will bind up and engagement in a sprint position with their feet and then bring the left foot further forward to give them a little more balance.

     


    Feet positions (their put-in)

    In the best position to push: Feet parallel and back.

    “Scrummage like a tight head” Rob Ambler, meaning, using the same foot and body position.

    Some hookers advocate putting the right leg forward to get flexibility with the type of shove. For instance if you were trying to focus on the opposition hooker or tight-head.

    The head position

    • The hooker should be in a position to see the ball to strike. Therefore, the hooker should aim at the opposition hooker’s right side, “the cup”. This is where the shoulders of the opposition tight head and hooker meet.
    • Keeping the eyes open before impact is the key to avoiding injury and maximising impact.
    • Some hookers scrunch their neck into their shoulders just before impact. It stops the head moving around and squares the shoulders.

     

    The cup , where the shoulders of the opposition tight head and hooker meet. This should be the target for the hooker’s head.

    “Hooker – keep your chin forward (head up) and right shoulder down on the back of the opposition’s neck.”  David Judd, chairman of Surrey Youth and former Harlequins hooker.

    This article is from my Secrets of the Front Row manual.



    CL
    CleanCutPro9,905 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 11:38
    #10
    12 Jul 2016, 11:38#10
     Ceradyne ... I'd have that checked if I were you ... could be contagious. 
    How did you contract the dreaded "brin capacity" ?? ... From a rabid animal perhaps? Do you think a good anti bacterial cream may help?
    Either way ... sterkte!!!!  





    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 11:51
    #11
    12 Jul 2016, 11:51#11
     The idiot ruined the thread -but that is usual with him.   He is a brainless twit suffering from Sh!t in his top storey.     
    DB
    DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 18:02
    #12
    12 Jul 2016, 18:02#12
     LOLZZZZ!!!
    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 18:08
    #13
    12 Jul 2016, 18:08#13
     "Ceradyne ... I'd have that checked if I were you ... could be contagious. "
    One of these days, ou Comrade might just really turn into that old guy. 
    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    12 Jul 2016, 19:46
    #14
    12 Jul 2016, 19:46#14
     Not because of you - dofdoos.   You are just an irritant and a minor one at that.  If you had a functioning brain-cell it would help but the one you have is malfunctioning.
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    13 Jul 2016, 07:31
    #15
    13 Jul 2016, 07:31#15

    Eish.....


    I see the Clever one forgot to put the beer down again.....  

    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    13 Jul 2016, 09:31
    #16
    13 Jul 2016, 09:31#16
     Devil's Advocate
     
    Status: Bok regular 
    Posts: 1276RE: The utility prop...differences between tighthead and loosehead prop for the morons who debate fruitlessly
    July 13, 2016, 07:31:35

    Eish.....


    I see the Clever one forgot to put the beer down again..... 






    WA
    WardadPro6,663 posts
    13 Jul 2016, 10:18
    #17
    13 Jul 2016, 10:18#17
     Mikey ,this office pinhole wots her name then ? We all know who the office pinhead around here is eh { no Mikey its not you it is of course beandip !}
    — END OF THREAD —

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