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FORUM / RUGBY /  The winning WC semi try.....Allende's role

The winning WC semi try.....Allende's role

Started by Mozart63 REPLIES1,674 VIEWS· 11 Jul 2018, 00:33
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Jul 2018, 00:33
#1
11 Jul 2018, 00:33#1
So there has been some discussion of Allende's role in our WC semi loss. Here is the video, go to minute 51.00: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YCRN4QE0WtU The Boks have a scrum 5 metres out........Malherbe gets monstered, but Vermeulen miraculously rescues the ball. In the next phase Schalk is gang tackled and Carter strips the ball. The Abs run right and Nonu goes straight through Allende but is stopped. The ABs get the ball from a ruck near the Boks line.....Pollard accelerates onto Carter, who passes to Nonu who gets the ball 5 metres inside the 22. But Allende has positioned himself too far inside and fails to come up with Pollard.....leaving a big gap for Nonu to run into. Nonu makes 15 metres up field and 20 metres across field to link up with Barrett on the 5 metres line. As Allende finally closes in Nonu hesitates and stands up Allende. Finally JP has to come inside to cover Nonu who looks to go all the way. Nonu then slips the pass to Barrett unopposed who scores. So Allende allowed Nonu to run about 25 metres before making contact. If he was parallel with Pollard and positioned on Nonu.....this move goes nowhere assuming unlike the prior time, he can make his tackle. This try happened because he was too timid, too slow to come up and certainly not committed to tackling Nonu. Check it out for yourself and see if you agree.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
11 Jul 2018, 01:25
#2
11 Jul 2018, 01:25#2

I will check it out Mozart, but I can't help think of this image




Will CleverMike take the bait?

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Jul 2018, 01:54
#3
11 Jul 2018, 01:54#3
I have been accused of lying about this try....so rather than debate the point, I have simply reproduced the sequence of events.....again. Posters can make up there own minds.
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
11 Jul 2018, 02:04
#4
11 Jul 2018, 02:04#4

Mozart, I'll be harassed for saying it but you are right. No teaming up or hate against Allende, it's just the truth. There are times when interpretations can be made where both sides are right, this is not that kind of case. But Clever Mike says Allende wipes the floor with "Bobu". I was thinking of having another look at the Rugby Championship game in 2015 between these two teams, I got a copy from PirateBay. It's pretty extreme to have to do that but here we go. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 07:05
#5
11 Jul 2018, 07:05#5

This BS is a repeat of a constant previous 50 lies by Mozart on the issue ands has been proven as a lie repeatedly.   The standard BS by a liar ej clam he is a mathematicians who apparently missed out on geometry.

Also supported as expected by another liar.    The BS is a slight change from the first lie - but even worse since it is based entirely on crooked imagination,   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Jul 2018, 07:31
#6
11 Jul 2018, 07:31#6
Not surprising you should say that....but here are the mathematics..... Root(15 squared+20 squared) = 25 Amazing hey, every word, every casual observation fits exactly. Now that we have dispensed with that, which statement is wrong 1 Nonu broke Allende's tackle in the prior move. 2 Pollard led the defensive line forward aggressively 3 Nonu was Allende's man 4 Nonu got the ball about 5 metres into the 22 5 Allende was well inside Nonu and lagged behind Pollard on the way forward. 6 Nonu made about 25 metres to the 5 metre line before he passed 7 Allende bought Nonu's slight hesitation forcing JP to come off his marker 8 Barrett scored what proved to be the winning try. Name the wrong statements and explain how they are wrong. There I've made it so easy for you skattebol.
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
11 Jul 2018, 08:25
#7
11 Jul 2018, 08:25#7

Lurker, see my summary of Damien's possessions in the 2015 RC game in the thread about Mike's new home. Might save you some time.

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
11 Jul 2018, 08:49
#8
11 Jul 2018, 08:49#8
Okay, I watched that try now about 15 times in a row and I have my own conclusion. In a two on two situation like that, in that much space, NZ are going to score 19 out of 20 times. No matter who the opposition defenders are. Look, I do believe De Allende has defensive issues, as can clearly be seen in the Brown try in the recent English series, but this NZ try is not a good example of his defensive frailties. If he had run at Nonu more aggressively Nonu would probably just have stepped him and gone on to score himself. Could he have started his run toward Nonu earlier? Yes, that would possibly have cut Nonu off somewhat and forced him to pass to Barrett earlier, or to step and try and go himself, but there are just too many variables for this try to be blamed only on De Allende. The long and the short of it remains, with that much space and with players of Nonu and Barrett's caliber on the outside, that try is basically going to be scored no matter what.   
I call it like I see it. Not taking any sides.   
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
11 Jul 2018, 09:21
#9
11 Jul 2018, 09:21#9

I have to disagree Bluebok. There is a simple premise here: Damian needs to force Nonu to pass to give JP a chance on Barrett. That is all. Instead, he lets his man get away from him and allows him to turn a two on two into an overlap.

First, Damian is too far back. The defensive line is fractured. What's he doing there?

Below, note where Pollard is, note where JP is. Damian should at least have been where the X is, or even further up in Nonu's face by now. Vermeulen is coming across in cover for the inside break, with Pollard also still in a viable position to defend against that. What happens now is Nonu is allowed to run away from the cover and attack all that space outside at will.

Below,  Damian should be pressuring Nonu into a pass (yellow). Instead he is just continuing to drift towards the tryline (red), giving Nonu a free and unopposed run.

All over. Nonu can now pin JP by attacking his inside and Barrett is open.

This was not an easy situation to defend, but it was hardly impossible. It was a one on one with his opposite number. He failed to shut him down.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 10:26
#10
11 Jul 2018, 10:26#10

 So Mozart wrote about a mysterious run through De Allende ending five meters out and then suddenly it was 2 meters outside the 22 meters line.  Mozart added a clip after he said De Allene missed a tackle on Nonu - which proved he lied about it.   He then changed the story to get around his lie.

Now Pakie got some pics not showing what actually happened and obviously not showing the tackle made.  Total BS obviously.since none of the photos actually showed that Nonu ran across the field and not straight at any defender.

So what do we have here -

*   a liar wo concocted the story in the first instance - posted a clip and then realized he lied and change the description to get around the lie;

*   a pretender thinking he knows more about rugby then anybody else - and then quote from the coaches guidelines to give the impression that he knows better than Hansen why he replaced Nonu early and came up with a weird game plan of Meyer - and when questioned about it could only come came up with the rushed defense story - in fact initiated by White;  and

*   the photo specialist who concoct photos to justify false statements - like making a tackle 4 meters out when everyone knows a tackle is completed only where the ball carrier falls with the ball.   He loved posting selected photos - not the crucial ones and use angles to "prove" that  Mozart and he are correct.

What a collection of "rugby liars" we have here.  They all dream up a story they believe should have happened.  Nobody else - no journalist - no expect - came up with the BS the above three came up with in this case  - so what can one expect from them.  Pure fabrication as per normal.

Mozart used to write Morzoscopes - but it was such a concoction of misrepresentations and outright lies that he stopped doing it in 2013.   Now he just write BS to try and discredit his pet hate players. 

This is my final response.   In future the response will be "BS".          

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
11 Jul 2018, 10:31
#11
11 Jul 2018, 10:31#11

I see what happened ,Salvador Allende was either too old or dead to make the tackle .Mystery solved !

Although what he was doing playing for the boks instead of being nice and dead or whatever hes doing these days eludes me.

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
11 Jul 2018, 10:35
#12
11 Jul 2018, 10:35#12
Pakie, I take your point, and it was not impossible to defend against that try, but i still maintain that with Nonu and Barrett in that amount of space, two on two, the try is always going to be the likely result. 
It comes down to a decision made by De Allende. Do you push the player out towards the touch line and force him to run out of space, which I assume he was attempting to do, or do you rush and cut him off and risk being stepped? Look, De Allande probably chose the wrong option, but there was some merit to what he was trying to do. Ultimately they scored a try, but again, the try was probably going to be scored either way.  
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
11 Jul 2018, 11:02
#13
11 Jul 2018, 11:02#13

Now Pakie got some pics not showing what actually happened and obviously not showing the tackle made.

The tackle was made after the pass had already gone. In other words, of no consequence.

Bluebok: that's fine, you have a right to your opinion and it's not an unreasonable one. I just feel a better and bolder effort should have been made. Damian's handling of this situation almost amounted to spectating: Let him come...let him come...let him come...whoops, too late.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 11:11
#14
11 Jul 2018, 11:11#14

Why did Pietersen not cover Barrett - he was not involved in the tackle of Nonu?  

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
11 Jul 2018, 11:24
#15
11 Jul 2018, 11:24#15

Because Nonu was not being taken care of and threatened the space on his inside. That's why this whole argument is about Damian taking care of Nonu sooner, forcing a pass sooner.

If you don't get that, too bad.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 11:41
#16
11 Jul 2018, 11:41#16

BS as per normal from another biased tripe writer.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 11:41
#17
11 Jul 2018, 11:41#17

BS as per normal from another biased tripe writer.

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
11 Jul 2018, 11:51
#18
11 Jul 2018, 11:51#18

Clever Mike doesn't know that defensive systems are based on how each defender supports the primary defender. The defender inside the primary defender is the hustle channel, the one outside is the jam channel. Defenders do not work in isolation, so if a man cannot do his job it affects the defenders either side of him and has a chain reaction throughout the rest of the defensive line. By nature it is easier to defend than attack, because defence is all about shape and positioning and maintaining structure. Attack is about creating movement to disrupt that shape and structure so it needs more movement and thought to make happen. A poor defender makes it very easy because the attackers don't have to be sophisticated, they can go for one weak defender and disrupt an entire defensive line. Here Damian is so poor that JP needs to condense inwards to deal with Nonu. Damian makes Nonu an immense threat so if he doesn't get brought down he could score a try himself. But Clever Mike asks why JP was so lazy and not doing his job. 

Now do you know why my questions are important? Because you don't know if a miss tackle was because of poor defending or because someone else screwed up. There's a lot more of course. 

Nice work Pakie. 

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
11 Jul 2018, 11:56
#19
11 Jul 2018, 11:56#19

Did you notice that I am communicating with you in a civil way? That's my effort for the day, in the interest of improving the level of discussion on the board.

This is what you've come up with in return:

Total BS obviously
the photo specialist who concoct photos to justify false statements
rugby liars
BSter
BS as per normal from another biased tripe writer

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 12:48
#20
11 Jul 2018, 12:48#20

OK - I will not answer any of you ludicrous statements in future and it applies to both you and Lurker and especially the despicable liar Mozart.   Will read your prejudiced rubbish and just laugh my ass off.    

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 12:48
#21
11 Jul 2018, 12:48#21

OK - I will not answer any of you ludicrous statements in future and it applies to both you and Lurker and especially the despicable liar Mozart.   Will read your prejudiced rubbish and just laugh my ass off.    

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
11 Jul 2018, 12:58
#22
11 Jul 2018, 12:58#22

And to think, you accuse Mozart of chasing members away. Unprovoked insults, lying about members, threatening to boycott members. Encouraging others to do the same. You need to take a step back and think about what you are actually doing. I only see you doing these things, noone else. I'd say other members are very patient with you. They take a lot of kak from you. I wonder how you'd feel if they gave you a dose of your own medicine. 

KM
Ka MateClub Pro246 posts
11 Jul 2018, 12:58
#23
11 Jul 2018, 12:58#23
Notsoclevermike, I really wish I could believe that. This forum would be a much nicer place to visit if you could stick to that promise. Unfortunately I don't think you're capable of keeping your word but let's wait and see.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 13:14
#24
11 Jul 2018, 13:14#24

I will do that Ka Mate.   I do criticize players - also De Allebde - but do not go down to the level the three did - ie lies and deception - so it is no use discussing rugby issues with them.

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
11 Jul 2018, 13:18
#25
11 Jul 2018, 13:18#25

There have been no lies. Zero. At least, the lies have been on your part. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 13:20
#26
11 Jul 2018, 13:20#26

BS

KM
Ka MateClub Pro246 posts
11 Jul 2018, 13:35
#27
11 Jul 2018, 13:35#27
Notsoclevermike's promise ("I will not answer any of you ludicrous statements in future and it applies to both you and Lurker and especially the despicable liar Mozart ") lasted a grand total of 36 minutes.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Jul 2018, 14:40
#28
11 Jul 2018, 14:40#28
Pakie describes it perfectly......if Allende is lined up on Nonu at the point of the x.....it becomes a simple one on one tackle. There is lots of space, but in fact too much space to make a pass with JP hovering in between. This is schoolboy centre play 101......you come up in a line. Unlike most Allende defensive mistakes, this one is not about a missed tackle.....it's about not being in the right place to support the defensive system and the complete lack of urgency to correct that. But it tilted the WC semi firmly to NZ.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 14:46
#29
11 Jul 2018, 14:46#29

BS

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 14:46
#30
11 Jul 2018, 14:46#30

BS

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Jul 2018, 15:08
#31
11 Jul 2018, 15:08#31
Think about it this way Bloo....there wasn't even a decision to be made, the tryline defined where the defensive line stood. Even with that prop, Allende failed to position himself opposite Nonu laterally. Then how can he be two paces behind Pollard as Pollard reaches Carter....they started from the same try line. He positioned too far inside, reacted slowly off the line, never accelerated to get to Nonu......then got stood up by Nonu's stutter step, look at his body angle in Pakie's clip. The red arrow shows why JP ultimately had to step in.....Allende's angle only meets Nonu 2 metres from the try line. Why is the point of contact 7 metres behind where Allende is and 10 metres ahead of Nonu in Pakie's second image....when they are only a metre apart laterally. Because Allende was effectively running away from the tackle.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jul 2018, 15:11
#32
11 Jul 2018, 15:11#32

BS

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
12 Jul 2018, 08:24
#33
12 Jul 2018, 08:24#33
Mike, please act your age. Can you see how Moz and Pakie and I are not agreeing on this incident, but we are putting forth our perspectives without calling one another names and acting like petulant children?
Moz, as I said to Pakie, I do take the point and on watching the video yet again, and reading the analysis above, I'll concede De Allende probably chose the wrong defensive option. I still maintain, that the try was probably going to be scored anyway. Out of interest sake, I wonder what percentage of the time, against any opposition, the AB's would score in a similar position two on two?    
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jul 2018, 08:46
#34
12 Jul 2018, 08:46#34

Bluebok

The fact that Nonu ran across the field in the way he did make it physically impossible for any player to cut him off as implied by Mozart and co.   It may in theory be possible - but in practice it is impossible 

What is amazing is that no real rugby analyst ever came up with the story Mozart has punted since 2015.   It was really what was possible some real expert  would have caught on and dealt wih the issue - but it never happened.   He started off with the lie that De Allende missed the tackle on Nonu and even posted a clip proving that he was correct.  However, the clip showed that De Allende did not miss the tackle - so the cut-off theory came to the fore.    

You should know by now that Mozart has a continuous hate campaign against certain players and that his opinion on them is only echoed by him and a few of his minions on site.  There rarely is a week when he does not start a thread on P-S du Toit and De Allende and most of his allegations are about as impossible as me breaking the world high jump record.   

The person who caused the original rift between him and me has been Mozart himself with his pervert and other attacks.   Ask Saffex (Dave) and Rooinek about him.   I met Saffex in London in 2004  and in 2013 I got an e-mail from Mozart asking me about the Fatness allegations against Saffex which he was punting on site in a continuous attack on Saffex.   I declined to become involved..   That is the way Mozart always tried to do with other members differing from him and  he has been at me for years trying to get me off-site. 

I have at last decided to  give up and ignore his postings and will be very blunt when he posts BS on site.

      .


KM
Ka MateClub Pro246 posts
12 Jul 2018, 08:53
#35
12 Jul 2018, 08:53#35
"I have at last decided to  give up and ignore his postings"
Like the last time, which lasted 36 minutes?
Stop fooling yourself StupidMike, you and Walter Mitty will both continue acting like a pair of little kids. You can't help yourselves. Funny part of it is you both like to make out the other one is so different from you but you're exactly the same. Like two peas in a pod.
Let's see how long this latest ignore lasts. Hope it's more than 36 minutes!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jul 2018, 13:03
#36
12 Jul 2018, 13:03#36

Ka Mate

The initials BS is not really a posting - it is merely a reminder not to take the previous posting seriously and regard it as "bull shit".  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Jul 2018, 13:59
#37
12 Jul 2018, 13:59#37
Bloo the point is the space shouldn't have been there. Look at a few tapes of JdV defending these situations. He was very quick off the line, and if anything angling outside in.....forcing the play back inside. Allende was hopelessly out of position, which should have elicited an aggressive response....instead he looked like a man who had just missed a tackle on Nonu and didn't want to try again.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jul 2018, 14:32
#38
12 Jul 2018, 14:32#38

Total BS

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
12 Jul 2018, 15:41
#39
12 Jul 2018, 15:41#39

Jean was smarter. He was unchallenged for so long at 12 because he was tactically aware. He was also tough. Not perfect hands but he could hurt you in many different ways. I suppose a lack of a boot is the biggest thing I can hold against him. With Jean and Fourie we had very intelligent players. Bluebok, go back to the home test of 2011 against New Zealand. The All Blacks had a very strong 20 minutes to open the game. Maybe a bit more. Fourie, cut off from the rest of the back line made a few interceptions and disruptions to directly cut out at least 4 guaranteed tries. The Boks would go on to win that game 18-5, we nearly nulled them. That's the kind of game changing ability we lack. Heroes that can make a difference. Allende is a body in a jersey nothing more. He repeatedly makes bad reads, repeatedly is caught out of position and generally doing the wrong thing. I downloaded the All Black test Clever Mike is talking about the past few days, I checked to see if it came out okay, and right off the bat the "worthless Bobu" sent a perfect kick in the opening minutes from his own half to setup a lineout on the Boks 22. It's already looking very bad for him. And making it worse, "Bobu" pulled one over on Allende in a World Cup to get to the final and win it. Embarrassing. 

Allende has 3 tries in 30 tests. Fourie had 15 in 30. Jean had 12 in 30. They've both had big moments, winning big games or mounting fightbacks. Jean's intercept sealing a Tri Nations against New Zealand, scoring a winning try against France to seal the Boks first series win over them in ages. Fourie turning around a Lions series from the brink, his double against New Zealand in 2006 to get back into the game, winning tries against Scotland in 2010, and a key pass with great vision to release Du Preez for a game winning try in 2013 against Wales. These guys have big moments right from the beginning of their careers. Fourie even played fullback and showed promise. Jean on the wing. What has Damian got in 4.5 years? Almost nothing. He conceded three tries against Australia, conceded World Cup destroying try against New Zealand. This player is not a winner. He gives you no competitive edge. Ricky Januarie wasn't the best technical 9 but he had heart and fought like a pit bull for the Bok jersey. Damian doesn't have that. None of the new Boks have that. This isn't hate, its just the stone cold truth. 

XA
XaviPro1,924 posts
12 Jul 2018, 16:42
#40
12 Jul 2018, 16:42#40

Preach!!

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