The worst flyhalf in South Africa

Just for "Clever"mike and Saffex....
I know even though the figures speak for themselves, we will still hear for the next 100 years just how poor Morne is "ball in hand", how robotic he is, about his poor "strategic" kicks, etc....
But his is basically just to show ONCE AGAIN, *sigh* how out of sync with reality your opinions are....

Stats form the worst flyhalf known to mankind (and the Stade Francais bench player) from last year's S15 (2013) in 17 matches
(per match in brackets)

Tries - 2 (0.12)
Try Assists - 5 (0.29)
Line Breaks - 4 (0.24)
Tackles - 86 (5.05)
Points - 248 (14.59)

Stats From Goosen in 14 matches this year
Tries - 1 (0.07)
Try Assists - 0 (0)
Line Breaks - 1 (0.07)
Tackles - 69 (4.92)
Points - 143 (10.2)

And that brings us to the conclusion... Johan Goosen is not only the worst flyhalf in South Africa, but he is even worse than the worst flyhalf known to mankind.

Statistics don't take anything into consideration Eg. Opposition, playing styles etc. This thread is useless. 

 Lamest excuse EVER!

It is S15 vs S15...

Not a believer of statistics, you'd have to get a 100% foolproof argument to change my mind. 

 The Trooth Fairy
The worst flyhalf in SA is by far the Stade Francais Reject and has been since 2011. Why do you compare the 2013 stats of the Reject  with the 2014 stats of Goosen - comparisons are only equal if it is comparable ie the stats from the same year.  Have a look at the 2013 stats for Goosen and not the ones for the present year.   The Cheetahs had team problems this year -and the Reject was not playing - so get real.

Poor old Trooooooooof  

 It would be intersting to see how long it takes ou Maaikie and  Safesex to discover why The_Truth hasn't bothered to include Glaasen's 2013 "stats".

 Exactly...

Added to that, this thread is about Goosen, not about Morne. Morne was just used as comparison to show what a plodder Goosen is... One (1) line break.... Zero (0) try assists...

Try assists are too vague, doesn't take into account key passes that put players into space before the final pass.

 Say ou Cheeseburger, have you figured out why Glaasen's 2013 "stats" was not included, or should I tell you tomorrow?

Trooof be told....
This is probably the biggest load of nonsense i have ever read.
Look I am not the biggest Goosen fan, but the stats shown above are the biggest load of knickers!

0 try assists??
Clearly you are not one to watch a lot of rugby.

Did you go to the clevermike school of stats?

 I am pretty neutral over Morne because those that are a thread to Morne have not played long enough to give a definitive answer.
I do however have a question you may answer. Take a few steps back to the Bulls heydays when Heyneke was their coach. Who was his preferred flyhalve?   ...... Derick Hougaard, with Morne doing bench duties. This I'd guess indicates that Meyer did not rate Morne all that much.

Actually Flash I was also sceptical. But the stats are accurate, Goosen had zero try assists for 2014. Willie and Rhule had assists against the Lions. Strauss and Pretorious had assists in the Sharks match. But Goosen got none all season.
Easiest way to corroborate this is to go to ESPN stats, go to the S15 results and dial up only the Cheetahs matches. It takes about 5 minutes....no time at all for the indolent.
All the best.  

Blikkies, I'm not sure I have your correct e mail.....could you drop me a line some time?  

 Moz, will do that in the morning.

Thanks mate.  

Goosen is in danger of quickly becoming forgotten for the Boks. 
Now with a full season of Super 15 under his belt, he has failed to make a convincing case like he did in 2012 for the flyhalf spot. His form has improved from the beginning of this season but is still nowhere near the confident game-breaking flyhalf we saw in 2012. With Goosen's move overseas imminent it will make it easy for Meyer to allow Pollard to fill the "future project" role. Out of sight, out of mind.
Should Lambie perform well for the Sharks in the playoffs and demonstrate good health he will most likely find himself starting the Argie tests. There is no way Meyer is at a place where he would trust Pollard over a healthy Lambie and with Morne apparently out for those first two RC tests with club commitments (correct me If I'm wrong) Lambie again finds himself, much like after the EOYT 2012, with the inside track to be the incumbent Bok flyhalf. Should he play well in those two games it will create a legitimate competition with Steyn and a selection poser for Meyer, which is a very good thing for the Boks.
Either way, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Your logic is pretty compelling Matey. But while I think Lambie can produce a decent game or two, I doubt he can sustain it over time. He is really pretty bankrupt in general play. 

 Mozart
Just a question - who is worse in general play than Morne Steyn?   Lambie may be "pretty bankrupt:  in general play - Morne is virtually "totally bankrupt" in general play.  
As to th Goosen issue - did Goosen score a try in 2014?  Yes or no.  Did  Francois Steyn score a try in 2014?  Yes or no..
With your statistical selection being so bloody selective - why don't yopu want to accept the full statistical impact of  Francois Steyn's performances and keep on praising the unacceptable?   For once be honest and consistent and do a full analysis of the statistical performances of Francois Steyn and Johan Goosen in detail - or otherwise shut up.   

@Matey.

"There is no way Meyer is at a place where he would trust Pollard over a healthy Lambie and with Morne apparently out for those first two RC tests with club commitments (correct me If I'm wrong)"

It is actually the other way round. Morne will only be available for the first two games. The international window ends at the end  of August.

 Ceradyne
You are wrong - the Clubs have no option - but to releaqse club players for the RC - so dear Morne will be available.  
However, Meyer will be foolish to select the Stade Francais Reject in any event.  He had a shocker in the second Welsh test and it is clear already that he would not meet requirements - Stade Francais should keep him to warn their bench in the upcoming Club games.
I think the problem will largely center around who Meyer will select - he has three potential candidates - all better than Morne - to choose from, namely Lambie, Goosen and Pollard.  My quess is that it may be one of the three to start and the other two tor to be on the bench - covering both the flyhalf and full back positions.    If a wng has to be to be replaced - one would take over the full back position and Willie le Roux would move to the wing.    Pollard is likely to be on the bench - to slowly phase him into the team as a potentials starting flyhalf later on in the series, should the ened for such a move arises. 
The above arragement would be feasible since De Allende can play in either the 11, 12, 13 or 14 positions as well.
I guess the backline starting line up and bench against the Argentinians would be as follows:-
15  Willie le Roux14  JP Pietersen13  Damien de Allende12  Jean de Vlliiers11  Bryan Habana10  Johan Goosen 9  Cobus Reinach
21  Francois Hougaard22  Patrick Lambie23  Handre Pollard
Out of the tten playrs involved three would be inexperienced.  It would be better to phase them in against Argentina than later in the series.   
   

 Luister ou knopdoos, do you really want to revisit IRB Regulation 9 like the last time?

There. This is the part explaining when the SH release period is. Read it slowly and carefully and try to remember it this time.

 (b) Southern Hemisphere Release Period
(i) The Right to Release for Matches shall apply to Players
who are eligible pursuant to Regulation 8 to represent the
senior, the next senior National Representative Team or
the Under 20 National Representative Team of a Southern
Hemisphere Union in a Southern Hemisphere International
Match, International Tour or International Tournament
during the Southern Hemisphere Release Period.
(ii) Unless Council approves otherwise the Southern
Hemisphere Release Period shall operate each year.
It shall commence on or around July 1 and shall conclude on
or around August 31. Players shall be released prior to the
Southern Hemisphere Release Period in accordance with
the provisions of Regulation 9.9.

These are the fixtures for the RC.
August:
Sat 16     South Africa v Argentina, Loftus Versfeld Stadium, Pretoria
Sat 23     Argentina v South Africa, Ernesto Maltearena, Salta

September:
Sat 6     Australia v South Africa, Subiaco Oval, Perth
Sat 13     New Zealand v South Africa, Westpac Stadium, Wellington
Sat 27     South Africa v Australia, Newlands Stadium, Cape Town
Sat 4     South Africa v New Zealand, Ellis Park, Johannesburg

Now please explain to us, in view of the above, how "the Clubs have no option - but to releaqse club players for the RC -...". Bear in mind this remark by the IRB:

"Under Regulation 9, clubs are obliged to facilitate release during specific and clearly defined competition windows during the calendar year without financial or contractual impediment. However, during a highly positive discussion, all representatives agreed that more can be done to ensure that the pre-eminence of the international Game is observed by ensuring the best players are available for national selection. "

Glad I could help............. again.

Oh, and BTW. Goosen is way kakker than Morne. He is too shit sca red to tackle and runs away with his back turned towards the opposition and he is a walking yellow card.

 Glaasen is kak. Only just ahead of that other useless idol of  yours, who is in his way to Japan. And I mean he is ahead by a very very small margin. Live with it.

 Once again. This thread is not about Morne, it is about Goosen.

I merely used your conclusion that Morne is the worst flyhalf in South Africa ever, compared the stats between the two players and made a logical deduction. Nothing more than that!

Which means Goosen is worse than the worst!

But let's go on with a few other inconvenient facts. Seeing that you want make this about Morne

2013:
Bulls: 2nd (With Morne)
Cheetahs: 6th (Without Goosen)

2014:
Bulls: 9th (without Morne)
Cheetahs: 14th (with Goosen)

2013:
Bulls: one of the best attacks in the S15 in terms of tries scored
2014:
Bulls: one of the worst attacks in the S15 in terms of tries scored

2013:
Serfontein and Engelbrecht perform so well in the S15, that they get called up to the Bok squad/team
2014:
Serfontein becomes the fourth choice after de Villiers/de Allende/Steyn et all and only get a start due to injuries or withdrawals
JJ loses his spot to a re-treaded wing

"when he has proved ages ago that he is our best." - Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!

"other than that, the rugby world thinks he is shit, much like his present French club do" - So you also fell for Mike's fantasy world, where he imagines he knows what is going on at the club. Are you referring to the club where they rotated the two flyhalfs on a continuous basis right through the season and even in the last two matches?

I also don't get your continual reference to the Afrikaans speaking population as "dutch". But, yeah it is that type of divisions and classifications that "apartheid" was built on... Probably why you left when the "swart gevaar" came into power...

 Safesex, it is not Morne who is  under discussion. It is your hero Glaasen. He is as crap as they come. 

 Any topic on here will turn into a Frans/Morne Steyn, Willem Alberts, discussion....

I actually believe a guy named Willem Steyn gave Saffex's an Mike's girlfriend (note the singular) "plenty happiness"... So any link to those names is like a red flag!

 " You can't hold Goosen soley responsible for why the Cheetahs didn't qualify for the playoffs. I mean it is a team sport after all, their are way too many varaibles to consider."
Ahaaa and therein lies a lot of truths that a few clowns around here just never get. When it comes to Morne Steyn, he becomes the sole reason when we lose. Hell, he even gets crapped on when it goes well.
That is, of course until the forwards come under discussion. Then the blame shifts from Morne and lands squarely on Alberts' shoulders.
The same thing happens when Frans Steyn come under discussion.
The role of the team  just never plays a part.
In 2012, when Meyer started - on very short notice one might add - there was a hell of a vacuum. He had to get a group of players together and gel them into a team in 6 days. Things didn't go as well as many would  like. We struggled up front, which put Hougaardt under pressure, which put Steyn under pressure and then we had JDV who hardly ever made any progress with the ball  any either. To add to that Steyn suddenly developed a kicking issue and he became the sole cancer in the team.
The "whole nation" called for Steyn to be axed and they got their way in NZ. Frankly, I do not buy into it that Goosen had such a great game in that test. That was coincidentally what led to  Ou Maaikie's hate for me. He said that Goosen almost saved us the game and when I said that we were in with a shout when Morne was taken off, he blew a  gasket and didn't believe me. I then produced the fact that, despite Morne's dismal kicking in that game the scores were level and after Goosen came on, it went to pot. My friend couldn't handle it and the hate campaign began.
Fact is that just like a good win requires a team effort, our woes in 2012 was also a team effort due to a lot of circumstances.
Let me just get back to Steyn's 2012 kicking for a little while. He had an almost perfect kicking record until the 2011 RWC. In fact, IIRC, he missed his first kick in quite a number of games early in the championship. Now I might be 100% wrong with this but I have a theory. Some would hear me out and debate about it, and some clowns would call me a stupid prick and attack my background but so be it. In any case, as far as his kicking was concerned, Steyn was coached by Vlok Cilliers for ages and suddenly his kicking coach became Percy. Now don't get me wrong, I have respect for Percy's kicking abilities but he has managed to achieve that despite having a flaw in his technique as far as I am concerned. I am by no means an expert on kicking but logic tells me that you should not be able to accurately kick from  distance with a two/three meter run-up. I personally think that the kicking coaching of Percy had an influence on Morne's kicking and it took almost a year with Vlok Cilliers to fix it again. 
I saw an interview with Vlok during the latter stages of the RWC where he discussed what has started to go wrong with his kicking and what was needed to fix it.

Ceradyne - thanks for the clarification. Makes things even more interesting and challenging if we do not have Morne, Pienaar, Habana, Louw.
Is there no chance the clubs will allow the NH players to play for the Boks, regardless of whether the are required to ?

 Ceradyne
When Goosen came in there were also other players who came in - one real monkey was Greyling - who gave away a penalty and next time round got carded for another penalty and lastly spilled an excellent try scoring opportunity in a line out.  
Morne was shown up every year he played for the Springboks - let me quote the ESPN profile again for you:-
"His fly-half rival Ruan Pienaar was handed the Springboks' No.10 shirt for their 2009 Tri-Nations opener but Steyn still made a telling contribution in the win over the All Blacks. As a result he started the second Test and scored all his side's points in a 31-19 victory - a record against their old rivals. He followed up that display with another 24-point haul in their win against Australia in Cape Town.

Steyn struggled with his form in the 2011 Super Rugby campaign but kept his place in the Springboks side for the end of season Tri-Nations tournament. However - after a poor performance against the Wallabies, Steyn was told he was playing for his South Africa future in the Boks' second game of the tournament against New Zealand.

And that has been the story of Steyn's international career. He oscillates between Man of the Match performances and then costing his side valuable points with erratic kicking a week later. During 2010 he was the Boks' undisputed first choice No.10 and he kept that mantle during the 2011 World Cup but when Heineke Meyer took charge of the Boks then eventually he opted for Johan Goosen at No.10 towards the end of 2012."
Steyn did not only bugger up the kicks at goal in the Dunedin test - the rest of his performance was dismal as well.  His constant aimless kicks were called bullshit by the commentators on two occasions - and that on the air.   That after a series of games earlier in the season - where his performance was really bullshit.   He destroyed the chances of the Springboks having a deserved lead in the second half and he did bugger-all positive all day long - a real disaster insofar as the team is concerned.    It was not the public that caused him to be dropped it was his dismal performances that caused it.  The public was sick of it by then.   Hi successful goal kicking in 2013 was a dismal 40%  
In 2013 Morne also buggered up badly in both the Eden Park and Ellis Park tests and that is factual as well.  If a flyhalf cannot find touch when he has to kick penalty kicks - does it tell you nothing at all?   In 2013 that was his stock in trade in the Eden Park tests when two such kicks let to AB tries.
The best SA can do is top get rid of the Stade Francais Reject.  It took them a month to find out that Steyn is useless at flyhalf - how much longer does it take to sink into the empty brain cavities of some players.   
So Percy gets blamed for the BS goal kicking by Steyn - what a joke.   Steyn has had up and downs in goal kicking ever since he started playing rugby.  In the Under 21 WC final in 2002 in Argentina in the final he missed every goal kick and was thoroughly disgraced by his performance.   Ever since he was erratic - he kicks well when not under pressure - but in pressure games he buggered up completely.   In the Ellis Park game last year he had a success record kicking at goal of 60% - so what else is new?                
he excuses you dream up to justify the Stde Francais Reject is really all based on BS - he never was a functional flyhalf that contributed to anything at all other than his sporadic goal kicking.   His poor game and inability to read the game and exrcute plays accordingly is what makes up Morne Steyn.
Lets just look at your comments:-
"I saw an interview with Vlok during the latter stages of the RWC where he discussed what has started to go wrong with his kicking and what was needed to fix it."   
Morne never fixed it in 2012 and was never really on song in RC tests in 2013 as well.  Two examples were the Mendoza test and the Ellis Park one.   
Morne was with the possible exception of Braam ban Straaten the worst flyhalf SA had over the las t 50 years.  His chronic inability to do anything positive in games was the root cause of most problems SA had in recent years.          

 
oimatey

Status: Bok regular 
Posts: 1158RE: The worst flyhalf in South Africa
July 15, 2014, 16:16:16Ceradyne - thanks for the clarification. Makes things even more interesting and challenging if we do not have Morne, Pienaar, Habana, Louw.
Is there no chance the clubs will allow the NH players to play for the Boks, regardless of whether the are required to?

It all depends on what SARU can negotiate with the clubs. Last year they agreed for a few players to go back to their clubs a day or two prior to the end of the release period but than the clubs again released them for the remainder of the S15. Morne and Habana come to mind. Thing is that last year they were new to the clubs but this time they will already have been fully integrated in their  clubs, so it might be a different kettle of fish. However ou CleverTrevor would like to believe that Morne is surplus at SF.

Ag ou Maaikie, we have been down this road already and just like all the other tripe that you regularly soil  this board with, you have mentioned these arguments of yours ad nauseam. 
And then you still have this little comprehension problem of yours. I have no doubt that you can read. Your problem is understanding what you are reading. Let me repeat what I said and then I will see if  I could make it any simpler and with a  little luck you just might be able to  keep up.
"I personally think that the kicking coachingof Percy had an influence on Morne's kicking and it took almost a year with Vlok Cilliers to fix it again. "
Should  I repeat that. Just so that there is no confusion. "....it took almost a year ....".
Now take the end of the 2011 RWC, and  then you add 12 months and see where it gets you. The end of the 2012 season. Right? When the 2013 season started, Steyn was on target again. After Vlok has  worked  with him  again. 

 Ceradyne
He was so on target - he only got 60% conversions in the Ellis Park test. 
Lets get this straight - goal coversions are not the only function of a flyhalf.    If it is it could be real motivation to select a dud like Morne Steyn at flyhalf.   It is not - Morne failed in all other requirements - and failed badly.   Ask Stade Francais for clarification in the relevant regard - they will tell you why he failed with them.  

 And there we go again. The one person on this board who never uses one game/incident as a yardstick and who get so pissed off when others do that. What about the test against Argentina last year when he only missed 1 out of 13 and had a 92% success rate? Or 100% against Wales in Durban,this year? Or 83% in  Nelspruit with 1 missed kick?

 Ceradyne
I am in a civil mood - I asked a serious question - if we want a flyhalf that  has only one acceptable ability - namely kicking at goal - is that what we look at for a flyhalf?   I have no real problem  with Morne's kicking at goal - for the rest he remains a poor flyhalf.  Get the message?