The Youngsters for 2013

I think that the following are going to come through in the Under 20 WC, the CC nd even in Super 15 and we may see some new faces in the Springboks as well:-

  *   Timo Swiel - the real ball sense wiz kid

  *   Jan Serfontein - top quality World class player

  *    Raymond Rhule - top future wing

 *     Pat Howard - speed and strength combined

 *     Paul Jordaan - the cleverest center in SA

 *     Damian de Allende - he has it all

 *     Jaco Reinach - this one is a future scrummie

 *     Wiaan Liebenberg - the real deal

 *     Ryno Elstadt - a hard player already - watch him in 2013 

 *     Arno Botha Watch him this year - top quality 

 *     Pieter-Steph Du Toit - combined with Etzebeth - the best future locks combination ever

 *     Steven Kitshoff - the real deal prop of the future

 *     Frans Malherbe - the one to watch

The following youngsters have already arrived:=

 *     Jaco Taute - the future miracle full back

 *     Pat Lambie - the real deal with brilliant rugby brain

 *     Johan Goosen -  Real star quality

 *     Marcell Coetzee - top player already

 *     Eben Etzebeth - the best lock in the world

As a team the above would beat most rugby teams in world rugby - so the present Springbok players must watch out - they are under serious threat from the above.   Wish they would play them in a trial match against the present Springboks and see what happens.   Without their present Juniors they may just get a whopping. 

Add JJ Engelbrecht at centre, Jantjies at flyhalf, v/Zyl at scrumhalf, Marcel v/d Merwe at prop, Paul Willemse at lock and Kolisi at flank

Saffex

You really must be kidding - Earl "Silky Hands" Jantjies and Engelbrecht - not even remotely in contention. 

I am telling you now, JJ will play for the Boks, the lad is a class act. You clearly know stuff all about backs. JJ and Taute are the best of our young outside backs

Jantjies will always be in the picture and will have you eating humble pie when he kicks arse for the Stormers

Saffex

Taute is a class act at FULL BACK.   Engelbrecht cannot even perform on CC level - so has "class act" must certainly be in how not to perform.

Jantjies caused Mitchell to have heart palpitations - when he is poor, he is wickedly so and he will not make it beyond 3 months as Stormers flyhalf.   They would soon eough realize they signed a contract with a mirage.   They should rather have contracted Morne Steyn since -

*   he plays nearer the gain line than Jantjies when standing in the pocket;;

*   he does not make as many manufactured hospital passes as Jantjies managed to do;

*   he is safer under a high ball when the opposition players are following it up;

*   he is at least defending when the opposition attacks through the channell; and

*   he messed up tests - but was never cut out by his team mates like  Jantjies was in the Soweto test.

Bet you he will not make May as Stormers starting flyhalf. 

Since 2007 we have exactly five new established Boks: Lambie, Etzebeth, Bismarck, the Beast and Alberts. That's one a year. On that basis, some of these youngsters you mention Mike will rotate in and out of the squad.....but very few will become established Boks.

Take some of your statements. Steph du toit was massively underbaked in his few S15 appearances. He looked willing but feeble....a long shot from part of the world's best lock combination. Kitshoff was at best a neutral in most scrums. Coenie, Heinke van der Merwe and other young looseheads, have looked far better in the scrums when they emerged. But they have yet to show that form at test level. Test scrumming is a hard school.

I suppose you get a warm glow running on about young talent. My advice is to wait until they look superior to the better S15 players....at that point some specualtion makes sense.

This is just a bit silly.

Mozart

I am certainly not saying that all the above woud make it - I am just saying that we must look out for the players mentioned.   In any event the period 2007 and 2011 was dominated by players from the 2007 WC winning squad - despite some of them going down massively in performances - and there was no chance for younger players coming through at all.    The result was that we were in serious trouble by 2012 - if we replaced the dinosaurs playing on reputation we would have been better off by now. 

As a result of a near to  zero replacement programme, the result was that we ended up with  some experienced players at present only in the Springbok squad on reputation - they were worse than ever before with only about 50% of the experienced players in fact making the grade insofar as performances in 2012 are concerned  I believe there are in fact more vacncies than is realized by many people.

I would much rather play a younger player showing class - than an under-performing experienced player - hence my view to watch out for the youngsters that would be the Springboks of the future.

Your take on Du Toit is on par with your original take on Etzebeth.  After the first three tests he played in - you really made some disparaging remarks on him - and only change those after he played in the more recent tests.      

Actually no Mike. During the S15 I said Etzebeth and Bekker should be our locks. Then when we hit the tests I pointed out that his performances were being overrated. I never made any "disparaging" remarks......I simply said he was still under baked. But with the 4N series he started to assert himself and show his full potential. I noted that.

I don't believe in imagining good performances.....if a player performs I give him credit. You and Sapp have favourites and players you always pan regardless of what they do. If you are simply honest about what happens on the field.......you wouldn't have to lie about Steenkamp's performance against the Poms, which was excellent. And Saff wouldn't have to lie about Taute's disaster against the ABs.

Stop playing favourites is my advice. Both you and Sapp are already primed to lie through your teeth about Steph du Toit in 2013....I will call it like it is.

Mozart

Thanks for the advice.   Insofar as Steenkamp is concerned, I was definitely not impressed by Steebkamp in the Scotland test - he really had an iffy game and was replaced early in the second half.   I thought he was below par in that game.   Insofar as the England test is concerned - he upped his game and can at best be described as maybe average to slightly above average.  He at 31 ywaes of age is definitely not an investment for the future and I want to refer you speciically to the comments of a member from Toulouse - who wrote on this site that Steenkamp plays quite well for them - but cannot last longer than 4 games - before he needs to be rested.   He allso have repeated injury niggles.    

Insofar as the experienced players at present in the Springbok set up are concerned I remain of the opinion that there are too much reliance on under-performing or barely satisfactory players amongst them.   Take for instance Jean De Villiers - to my mind the best SA Center - but he is the best amongst a very poor lot.   He may make 5.5 out of 10 and as such is an average performer.

I beg to differ from you on the issue of favourite players.  I am critical of under-performers whomsover they are.   I for instance am most critical of Taute and other of Saffex's favourites.   If players are under-performing I am their worst critic.   I beleive that Du Toit is a good prospect - but he better proves that he qualifies for higher honours  - I will not give him undue credit. 

I am not satisfied with the Springbok performances in 2012 and hope they will do sigificantly better this year and that cannot be achieved with under-performing  players - irrespective of whether  rhey are expereienced players or new selections.   Matter of fact I believe the experienced players must set an example for new players and am afraid the example last year was not really satisfactory - they better do significantly better this year. 

Very reasonable Mike.

The hypocrisy stinks - here we have Moffie telling us I have favourites and he does not? Wow

Thing is Moffie you have your favourites Jean, Adi, BJ, Schalk etc but more pertinent is your predictable dislike or anti of hell, the majority of our players, the list is endless...Kirchner, Ludik, Taute, JJ, Mvovo, Frans, Fourie, Olivier, Jantjies, Hougaard, Jannie, CJ, Steph du Toit, Flip, Greyling, Burden, Spies, Coetzee, Daniel, D.Potgieter, Elstadt, Kolisi etc......for the rest you probably dont even know who the youngsters are......its just anti all the way.

For me, its simple, I look on most our players favourably - I dont see place for small players at international level and voice as much and I also know when players are done like Jean, Steenkamp and co - all class acts in their day.

I don't dislike these chaps. The only player I really disliked was the sleeze Luke Watson. But I try to look at them realistically. Let me show you how that works using your list:

Kirchner a player you punted strongly up to the middle of the year....average at best and he can't tackle.

Ludik a good energetic provincial player.

Taute....the guy who lost the NZ test....maybe at fullback, never at centre.

Mvovo...bottled out against the Bargies, never to be seen against the better wings.

Frans....absolute dead wood this year, has never done much at centre, almost lost the RWC by missing Tait.

Olivier something like 40 tests with one lonely try....say no more.

Fourie.....a great opportunist, a very ordinary centre....tends to pile up the tries against weak oponents.

Jantjies so small he disappeared against the ABs and from  Bok selection.

Hougaard a good test wing, not a scrumhalf.

Jannie has evolved into a decent tighthead.

CJ was much better on the loosehead, as a tighthead he was mauled by the likes of Woodcock. Very injury prone.

Steph du Toit looked feeble in his first outings, but he is young.

Flip a dull lock who tends to give away tests with missed tackles on the fringes and with stupid penalties.

Greyling a bully who scrums only marginally better than your other long time pick,  Werner Kruger.

Burden your pick for Bok outside centre, but his pace suited hooker better.

Spies a gutless player, with a dubious RWC exit, who can't tackle.

Coetzee a very hard trier who showed well in the S15, but ended up as mainly a tackler. At best an average international prospect....this is not the next Schalk.

Daniel, not much bigger than the backs you think are too small. Great competitor, but not for test rugby.

Elstadt....too short for a dominating test lock, maybe an Alberts alternative.

Kolisi fast enough to take JJ Engelbrecht through the outside gap, but probably not a test player.

That's the kind of realistic view that a professional coach has to adopt. Rose coloured glasses don't prevail against All Black ferocity. But it's nice that you look on youngsters favourably, unfortunately you haven't got any of them right apart from Etzebeth, an obvious pick.

Moffie you call that bullshit realistic - its complete and utter biased crap no more so than your pathetic take on Fourie, which in fact is coupled with your usual lies. Go check the stats on Fourie's tries and you will see what lies you have come up with here.

As for Kirchner, I rate him but has NEVER been my starter and in fact has always been bloody good.

Ludik this year proved he should have got a squad call up, everyone will testify to that unless they were as prejudicial and full of bull as you are.

Taute never lost the test, he missed the impressive Dagg and was the best Bok 13 in 2012 by some distance. He is a centre or fullback but is needed at centre

Mvovo had one of the best S15 records this year and has always been good for the Boks, his try against England was pure class.

Olivier at times was better than Jean, but always the obvious back-up to Jean. Perspective on Olivier will tell you that he never had an extended run at 12 at test level played many of his tests off the bench or out of position on the wing or at 13 - but you are too prejudiced to acknowledge this true context.

Steyn was the best centre in that whole WC and along with JP last year rated higher than any other Bok back, better than useless Jean in every game. Frans was spot on this year, your take is complete bullshit. Frans is a proven test star as was Fourie and Jean in his day.

Jantjies got favourable mention in that AB test, go check the ratings. He was on the bench in the last test of the year, so what you on about?

Hougaard is by far our best 9 has always been and has done squat at wing which just goes to show how much you know.

Jannie has always been good and CJ the same as a tighthead, never got bent by anyone. Far better than your hero BJ who was useless

Greyling is a good player, great at scrum time and heavily involved but too stupid for test rugby, although as a coach it would be foolish to discard him on those grounds - however better youngsters are about.

How did Steph du Toit look feeble, let me guess that will have been him being driven back by two players together but you do not have the balls to admit that. Fact is Steph du Toit was the best lock on the field that day and got injured taking a kick off where no player touched him - but your pathetic conclusion to this was that he was not man enough for top flight rugby. I am going to so enjoy rubbing your nose in it when it comes to Steph du Toit in years to come.

Flip has always been good and very good this year, far better than the likes of Johan Muller or Jeandre Kruger

Coetzee strength is ball in hand and a far better prospect than Schalk same age. Poor call by Meyer dropping him to the bench. Coetzee will be a test great, far better than Schalk as he actually has ball skills.

Daniel at 100kg is the perfect size for an openside flanker and would have made it had the stupid coach not played him out of position at 8

Spies in his day was the best 8 in the game.

Burden went on to prove that he had never lost any of his pace, no slower than a Jean, Olivier, Frans or Fourie.

Elstadt is 1.98m you fool, the same height as Jeandre Kruger

Kolisi will play many tests and also better than Schalk at the same age. Meyer kocked up totally by not selecting him against England

Realistic view a coach has to adopt is it and from that view deliver a chest beating 57% - good one Moffie, try again. Problem is, our Meyer has the same views as you and thats why he cocked it up so. Both of you are clueless when it comes to players credentials and the results substantiate that.

Until our records prove me wrong, I'll stand by my view on the players and discard your for the rubbish they are - look no further than your lonely take of Fourie, further reduced by your high opinion of the pathetic Adi at the same time - it was a complete joke, much like your take on every player above.

As for my calls, they cannot have failed as the stupid coach never selected them in the first place. Had he selected more of my calls there is no way in hell we would have only won 57%, it would have been 75% plus

Keep that list and let's see at the end of the season how many of those players really make it in test rugby.....ie solidify a regular position in the Bok team. My guess....zero other than guys like Jannie who are already regulars.

 Mozart I do agree with some of your statements about players such as greyling, however some things you have said about other is blindly stupid! Kolisi would make a fine springbok however I doubt due to his size he won get a shot under HM also you say J fourie scores most his try's against a lower teams well in fact he has only scores 11 of his 32 tries against lower rank trams with the country he has scored most against being New Zealand I believe I can not remember right of the top of my head now.

as for Stephan du he ahowed some great skill in the juniors World Cup where I believe his run of the back of the line out showed pace skill and was one of the changing moments in the game, however as I live in the uk now I don't get much SS and have to make due with missing a few games what I saw of him this year was a boy struggling to get to grips with the adults however hats of he didn't give up and did show great determination. But tbh I so not rate taute as a centre it's just not him the same I don't rate hougie as a wing he is a scrumy as taute is fullback. 

Im just saying I hope we use the young talent we have coming up and not loss it like we lost Cj stander and I have watch that boy play live and boy has he got a high work rate sad to see him leave :(

Great selction Mike. It shows really that with the  injured players back and the other more experienced players Meyer has a very good talent pool to select from. However some of these guys will not be ready this year. One cn only hope meyer will resist picking guys who are not ready.

As I have said and also Moz, we wan tto see them making an impact at Super 15 leve lbefore shoving them into the Boks. I lik e t o see real proof.

As fo rKoliis well he startd well last season and faded badly. However at NO stage did he look remotely in the class of Deon Fourie who is the ONLY smaller flanker in the country that looked likely to make an impression at test level. The simple fact is that 100 kg loosies are struggling at top flight test level. Daniel is a classic example of this. Kolisi is young so I am not writing him off and we will see how he developes.

Any idea that guys like Coetzee or Kolisi will be better than Burger are laughable in the extreme. They are nowhere near Burgers quality at comparable stages in their careers!!!!!!! How daft do you get! I very much doubt that either will ever be IRB Rugby player of the year for one.

snapster Moz is NOT saying Du Toit wont make it he is questioning when. From what we saw briefly last year in Super 15 he looked like he needed some more time. I put it at 2014 for him but we shall see he may surprise.

Bottom line is the youngsters must prove their Bok seelction credentials firstly at Super 15 level.

snapster your harping on the 58% win record is doing you no favours it shows you have no idea of context. Meyer said he had 20 players missing. Also we had the unexpected implosion of possibly the worlds best goal kicker costing us a number of matches. Moenie kak praat asseblief snapster! You are heading for a truck load of egg this year re Meyer!  Thank goodness Meyer didnt flood the Boks with under 21 players etc. We would have had  a terrible win record then. Snapster simply has no idea! Of course these youngsters will in due course take over we ALL should know that!! The question is when will they be ready.

Keaganzulusmith

Mike you could have saved Keagan a lot of reading by simply saying that he should read Beeno for a definitive view!!

Beeno

Moz, there is a bit of an issue when the stupid coach does not select the players on that list. He cant get selections right so what are the chances of us seeing my choices in the Bok side - a big fat ZERO and another year of 57% no doubt.

 cheers for the warm welcome:) also i think meyer has got it in him to lead us to lots of victories as tbh he did improve a lot over the year. However he has this one way mind that anyone that is small cant be a springboks which is a stupid idea i think as if you look back in the past at such players like james small you can see that size does not matter at all. I for one just hope he sourts his picking of players up! 

You all are really guressing widely as to what the Stringbok team in 2011 would look like.   There are some uncertainties as to iinjured players and some prejusices on the part of Meyer that would be in evidence.   My initial team would be the following:-

 ou mike and snapster I can hardly see you for the egg! You have received a truckload of egg re Meyer and you know it.

Beeno

Dave do you still remember Johann Sadie....the JJ/Taute of 2011. As I recall you were totally and utterly convinced he was the next Bok 13.

Moz and so did most of SA. Sadie is still a baby and to be fair he never really did anything wrong at the Bulls when he played, he just did not set the world alight as he had for WP the previous year. Injuries got in the way of his progress and I get the impression the Bulls environment never suited him.

Saffex

But not me Dave, I never picked Sadie based on fresh air.....potential is not proof. JJ and Taute will go the same way.

 Clevermike....I like your selection but you have to include v d Merwe at prop, this guy is super strong and can only get better.

AJ, just shows how much you know, of the list, Marcel v/d Merwe is probably the least likely to make it.

Saffex

You should heed those words given your pathetic prejudices against Jantjies, Taute at 13, Frans at 12, Hougaard at 9, Lambie at 15 - dont preach to me when you speak a load of crap all the time.

Saffex

So if Taute was that average as a centre then how the hell did he walk straight into the Bok side at 13 post his injury huh?

Saffex

No dumbass, Meyer was spot on with that selection and it tells us that Taute is not that average at 13 as you mistakenly make him out to be - do you realise how stupid it makes you look?