BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
20 Apr 2014, 17:15#2
Go easy on Sweil Boklog he is hugely talented and I really cant see why you are complaining so much.
He was also instrumental in a try. Great accelaration and vision. Of course he is a bit green how could he not be but the talent is there.
Jordaan coming back is a must.
sharkbok
Captain23,295 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
20 Apr 2014, 17:25#3
I disagree, that break he made yesterday led to the only try. He was very close to scoring it himself. In both games he has played, it is also the worst the Sharks forwards have played.
I would like to see him playing a few games behind a dominant pack to get his confidence up.
Yesterday was a crap game and he is of the few players that did anything
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
20 Apr 2014, 17:53#4
Sharks test will be overseas. Only hope for once they get a fair deal from refs.Hope to Frans is not injured.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Apr 2014, 18:02#5
They were playing the Cheetahs for heaven sake, the worst defending team in the competition. If this kid starts in NZ we are set for a disaster. By the time the last 20 minutes arrived, Fran's had in effect taken over.
This is a very quick, accelerative youngster....but he is slight. He missed 40 per cent of his tackles.....his channel will be a highway. He will need to bulk up to play top rugby....a sort of Goosen clone without the boot.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Apr 2014, 20:20#6
Balls Mozart
He missed one tackle while following up a kicked ball - the other one was in defense. Unlike Francois Steyn - when "for heavens sake" was playing at flyhalf against the Lions - who missed 50% of his defensive tackles.
In any event Swiel made some good line breaks and he will make the same in New Zealand. Your assumption that you must play a baby elephant at 10 is absolute BS.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2014, 02:28#7
Your assumption that one can play a butterfly at number 10 is absolute bs. But don't take my word for it....let's wait and see.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2014, 03:18#8
Mozart
A new word has emerged from the fertile mind of Mozart "butterfly", You cannot play a butterfly no 10 - but you can play a butterfly at 13.
Problem is that Swiel has ball sense and can read games. So he has done something that Steyn has never done in the past 7 games. He made 2 clean breaks and beat 3 defenders in the process and made 66 meters territory gain in one match (more than Steyn did in 7 matches) and he set up a try for the Sharks while Steyn gifted one to the Cheetahs..
I prefer a thinking player at 10 - not a dead head like Steyn. So in this case the bs is what you have in mind.
21 Apr 2014, 03:39#9
Steyn has been bloody awful this season, he started with a bang and had a decent match at flyhalf against the Lions in Durban but from then on he has been nothing but a big boot. On attack he's been ineffective, completely and utterly useless. I really do hope that he isn't picked for the Boks, there are so many better options E.g. Serfontein and De Allende.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2014, 04:33#10
It's going to be amusing to hear all the howls when HM chooses an experienced squad. Serfontein is no better than Wynand Olivier, who at least had a decent pass.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2014, 04:50#11
Mozert
Nobody says that Swiel is a candidate for Springbok selection at this stage. What we have said he had a good game on Saturday. He is definitely not ready for Springbok selection as yet - but you had to be vicious even before he has had more match experience.
The only hope for the Springboks is that Meyer selects players based on performance and not only experience. Experienced players who do not perform satisfactorily do not belong in the Springbok team.
Problem is you go on about "decent pace" in respect of some players - but not for others. Start looking at all aspects and players comprehensively and a discussion is possible - for instance if pace is a requirement for Serfontein - it is also a requirement for Steyn.
Incidentally I am not happy about Serfontein's present performances as well - even though he is better than Steyn by a considerable margin. .
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2014, 04:50#12
Mozert
Nobody says that Swiel is a candidate for Springbok selection at this stage. What we have said he had a good game on Saturday. He is definitely not ready for Springbok selection as yet - but you had to be vicious even before he has had more match experience.
The only hope for the Springboks is that Meyer selects players based on performance and not only experience. Experienced players who do not perform satisfactorily do not belong in the Springbok team.
Problem is you go on about "decent pace" in respect of some players - but not for others. Start looking at all aspects and players comprehensively and a discussion is possible - for instance if pace is a requirement for Serfontein - it is also a requirement for Steyn.
Incidentally I am not happy about Serfontein's present performances as well - even though he is better than Steyn by a considerable margin. .
21 Apr 2014, 04:57#13
He certainly has a better pass than De Jong, think I've seen him pass twice in my lifetime ! Serfontein has the best pass out of all the South African centers.
21 Apr 2014, 05:32#14
Nah guys..I cant hold my tongue for this bullshit some of you okes speak. The Cheetahs have had 304 points scored against them in 8 games prior to this game against the Sharks. Sharks have scored 207 in 7 games prior to the Cheetahs. This means the Sharks are averaging just under 30 points a game whilst the Cheetahs are conceding 38 points a game. Fuck me but if a team is conceding 38 points a game, how will they ever win. This is proof that the Cheetahs have by far the worst defence of the comp.
Sharks are second only to the Hurricanes on points scored and leading the rest in least points scored against proving we have the most miserly defence.
So what we had in the Sharks v Cheetahs game is basically the best attack vs the worst defence. Couple that with the Cheetahs up against the best defence in the comp. How is it that we are only worth 1 "grind' of a try against this shit defence?
Are you guys gona sit back and tell me that this would have happened with Fred or Pat at 10?All season long we have seen guys like Mvovo and Sithole featuring heavily on attack. What has changed now in a game where these guys would relish. Its by far the worst defence in the comp for fuck sakes.
Dont try and over analyse this. I am telling you that Swiel was piss poor (2 from 2 now) and it was due to him that our backs never got going.
I am not saying he is a bad player. I am saying that he is not ready for this level YET and he needs a couple more seasons in Vodacom cup level. He is still young enough to afford him this. We are making a big mistake if we take him on tour.
Jake will know this. He might have his hand forced due to injuries but I would look at a loan player from somewhere. Swiel has a lot of talent but it needs to be nurtured. His confidence must be low right now and a harsh tour could really fuck this kid up. He is not ready. Not close!
All you okes talking about his one break get over yourselves. It was the fucken Cheetahs. He should have made 6 breaks like that before the half was up!
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2014, 05:33#15
Fat lot of good it's done the Bools
21 Apr 2014, 05:42#16
Rugby is a team sport, not played by individuals Mozart. The Bulls are going through some tough times, it's remarkable how many players they have lost and are still competing.
Boklogic, no opposing flyhalf has made 6 linebreaks against the Cheetahs. Barrett caused the most havok of all the flyhalf's. Swiel is going to improve, just the hype about him has been greatly magnified by those videos we've all watched. He's a good player and will prove himself, only his second game and he set up a try, onwards and upwards.
21 Apr 2014, 07:55#17
No doubt Swiel has the goods. Just not at this level YET. I realise he had a hand in setting up a try but it was against the Cheetahs at the back end of a game. It always opens up against the Cheetahs then and its not uncommon for the Cheetahs to concede 3 tries in the last 20 mins. They are not a good team and Swiel made it look way tougher than it needed to be out there. Sharks should have won this one and won it well. Bonus point no doubt. Guys like Mvovo and Sithole should have had a field day.
Sharks normally grind opposing teams down with structured rugby and that allows our backs to play woth good ball. Swiel got some good ball but way too much kicking as we saw against the Bulls. We never saw any of Sithole and Mvovo.
All I am saying is that if Swiel is at 10, our season will de-rail very quickly overseas. He is not ready. Not now. Come again in 2016 and have a look at him. Let him put on a good 3-5kg's of muscle too!
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2014, 11:39#19
Boklogic
You blame Swiel for the malfunctioning of the Sharks backline on Saturday - yet you ignore the fact that the player partly responsible for that malfunctioning was in fact Francois Steyn.
What worries me is that the Sharks played at home mostly - they lost one away game in Pretoria. They blunder along winning games by penalties and they cannot score tries. Most people worry about that one. Will it work on their Australasian tour? Nobody knows.
I think that Swiel showed enough against the Cheetahs to make him a future investment. He did not have a game as bad as you made it out to be. What would have happened on Saturday if Cheetah players like Coenie, Labuschagne, Van der Walt and Goosen was available and if De jager was not injured before halftime? I shudder to think what could have happened.
The Sharks away lost against the Bulls - who buggered up badly in Australasia - and they struggled to beat an injury plagued Cheetah and Lions team - and now suddenly there is only one problem in the team - Swiel. I do not think that really is the case. I think there are deeper rooted causes here.
KMKa Mate
Club Pro246 posts
21 Apr 2014, 12:09#20
Get Smallcock, he reckons the Sharks have the best attack in the comp!
Newsflash bro, the sterile Sharks don't have an attack to speak of and if they ever score tries its off opposition mistakes.
Thanks for the laugh Smallcock. Stick to making threats and ducking meetings to back up your big talk, you little weed.
21 Apr 2014, 13:37#21
Ducking meetings?? Your'e the little cunt that didn't show..You obviously didn't save any of your benefit money from Thursday morning to make the trip over. Probably gave it to you hillbilly mom to get a box of cody's!Not sure why you didn't keep just 5 bucks. I mean, a car as unmanly as a Hyundai i30 doesn't take much gas but I suppose you need that 5bucks to hit the local smorgasbord to get a 5 dollar pack to feed the whanau!
How is the best attack and best defence rated you dumb son of a bitch? It can only be rated by the points scored for and points scored against.
Sharks have scored 17 tries this year. Only team above them in terms of points scored is the Hurricanes who have scored 25 tries but please take into account the massive 9 tries they scored in one game as they put 60 points against the Cheetahs in Wellington. take that game out the equation and a team as great on attack as the Hurricanes sit on only 16 tries.
Cheetahs is a lottery. One day they will beat you comfortably, the next they will draw with you and the next they will concede 10 tries..You never know what you will get ith them.
Take the Sharks and Hurricanes minus the Cheetahs game for both teams and work out the points for..
Personally, I know that the Sharks do not have the best attack in the comp but we can only go by what figures tell us and thats why I said that. I mean, for a team as "sterile" as you say, we have given a few teams a nice klap this year.
ps..If only your father was sterile..NZL would be a much smarter place hey Ka Mate..Hows the i30 going by the way?? Has it won you any dick lately??
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2014, 14:21#22
boklogic
Your stats are seriously flawed insofar as try scoring is concerned. The leading SA side in scoring tries is not the Sharks - it is by some distance the Cheetahs. Their bac kline players scored as many tries as the Sharks did in total.
The Sharks did score 17 tries - but of those only 8 came from backline play, Of the 8 two were scored by Jordaan. one by Reinach and one by Lambie. With those three absent - the tryscoring by backline players dried up and is now a serious joke. Of the 4 remaining tries one resulted from an intercept and one from a ball loss in possession - so the tryscoring ability of the Sharks dried up completely.
The key Sharks backline player according to many is Francois Steyn - but he never made a line break and never made a contribution to scoring of tries and he lost possession and gave away penalties more than any other SA Center or flyhalf. His passing game was at times seriously problematic as well.
It is clear that there is something seriously amiss in the Sharks backline. I think that with Lambie out the only real option for the Sharks is to play Swiel at flyhalf. Zeilinga did not produce anything of note in the games he played in - he can kick at goal - but so can Swiel. At least Swiel showed some attacking and thinking skills - which neither Steyn or Zeilinga showed.
The general opinion is that the Sharks are going to struggle against Australasian teams unless they can up their backline play and the question remains - will it happen?
21 Apr 2014, 14:58#23
Mike, every post of yours these days makes mention of Frans Steyn..What is your issue with the oke? It can not just be about rugby now. You are obsessed with hating him. Its personal.
I never said anything about the Sharks scoring more tries than the Cheetahs. Nothing wrong with the Sharks attack when we are handing out some decent hidings this year.Ka Mate just likes to talk shit with no back up of evidence. He needs to get a job.
ps Mike. Give up your hate of Frans Steyn. The boys are 7 from 8 with him on the field. If not for Swiel, possibly 8 from 8!
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2014, 15:40#24
Boklogic
I have no problem with Francois Steyn as a person - what I do have a problem with is that he is not producing the goods for the Sharks, other than a few long distance penalties. He is the only SA center who never made a line break in 8 games and the only center who never scored a try. That coupled to the possession losses and the penalties he gave away does not make for nice reading,
What exactly did Swiel do wrong in the Bulls game that cost the Sharks the loss of the game, In the absence of the game itself I had a look at his stats and they are as follows:-
Swiel0/029/3/62800004/02/000/0
Their is nothing indicating a poor game on his part. He could have perhaps pass the ball more - but would that have changed the game? With the performance record of the rest of the Sharks backline, I doubt it very very much,
Looking purely at the stats of Steyn - he is more likely to have lost the game for the Sharks -despite his three penalty conversions:-
Steyn0/0126/3/4000029/30/010/0 He showed zero in attack - lost possession of the ball twice - missed too many tackles and that penalty he gave away in front of the Bulls posts was criminal to say the least.
Look the same deficiencies in play plagued the Sharks backline starting with the second match. The Sharks scored 4 tries in their first game and in the 7 succeeding games a total of 13 tries.
Where I do agree with you is the fact that they gave away fewer tries than other sides - so their defense is very good. However, in 2012 the Stormers achieved the same distinction in all their round robin matches and then went to pieces in the semi-final. A team cannot rely on defense only to get to the top in Super 15 - so unless the Sharks shows improvement in the tryscoring scenario of the game they are definitely not going to make the grade ultimately.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Apr 2014, 21:57#26
Mozart
Lets look at the quote again:-
"To be fair and not putting pressure on him, it was always going to be difficult to get some rhythm and some continuity going when you got a number 10 making his first start."
As per normal you have interpretation issues here that only you would interpret in the relevant way you did. Swiiel plays a different style of play from Dead Head Steyn and the latter could also have to do with the lack of rhythm. Thus is particularly clear when you look at Dead Head's stats.
The allocation of blame is not entirely laid at the door of Swiel - as you try and imply - purely because it was his first start - he was mentioned.
AJArthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJArthur JohnPro1,748 posts
21 Apr 2014, 22:11#27
Don't know about you guys but as I see it the NZ and Aussie teams are way ahead of our SA teams.
Just check out the mauls etc we have more players at the play than most of their teams yet they win the ball mostly while our guys look on.
To much kicking away possession by SA teams and more often than not no game plan.
You have to control possession and have a plan to win....the days of up and under are gone from what I see each week.
Really concerned about SA rugby in general.
Poor showings week after week...cannot be allowed to continue if we desire to be winning force in rugby.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Apr 2014, 23:53#28
We have the weakest crop of young backs in living memory, but there are still some decent tight forwards coming through.
GEgeneraltit
Pro3,164 posts
22 Apr 2014, 02:20#29
AJ commented..."To much kicking away possession by SA teams and more often than not no game plan.
You have to control possession and have a plan to win....the days of up and under are gone from what I see each week".
You're right AJ...it's as simple as that...cannot understand why we are suckers for punishment...we keep repeating the same old mistakes over,again and again.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Apr 2014, 04:07#30
You can't retain possession if you don't beat tackles...otherwise it simply becomes a stalemate most likely to result in a turnover. When teams sense that risk they kick. It starts with training our chaps to beat tackles, either through clever passing or penetrative running. You have to earn the right to retain possession.
22 Apr 2014, 04:12#31
Smartest thing I've ever read from you Moz.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2014, 06:11#33
Mozart
As per normal you are clueless. The problem is not the fact that we are kicking, but because of the fact that tackled ball recovery is a problem. Sure backline players gets tackled - it happened to all franchises - but where are our loosies when there is a need for tackled ball protection and recovery? The answer is nowhere - they arrive way too late to ensure quick recovery.
Even if they get to the breakdown points they make no efforts to involve themselves in recovery - others have to do it. How many times do you find them standing around at the back of the breakdown points or mauls and hope somebody else will do the work. Watch out next time around when players like Kolisi, Carr, Deysel, Alberts and Hattingh play - they never do any work insofar as breakdown ball recovery is concerned.
The reason why balls are kicked away has less to do with the tackle issue as you claim it has. It is because of a variety of factors - mostly to do with unthinking rugby and deficient ball handling skills. The problem is not with the younger players - it has more to do with the so-called experienced ones.
I have seen many bugger-ups over the series. Cases where players are hogging balls they should have passed. where wrong and poor passes are executed - where overlaps take place and are eliminated by wrong plays by the more experienced players. Look again at the games over the past two weekends and you would find the experienced players running straight at defenders - when overlaps are outside of them. De Villiers buggered up badly in the case where he was injured on Saturday, Steyn is an habitual offender, the question arises can De Jongh in fact pass balls, etc,
The Cheetahs are weak in defense - but they score more tries than any other SA outfit and the question is why? The answer is they rarely kick away balls, they never run straight at the first defenders, they try and draw in defenders before off-loading the balls, their loosies are part of the ball handling strategy and they do proper ball protection and recovery at breakdown situations. Their main problem is when players like Goosen, Van der Walt and Labuschagne is not available or replaced - then their game starts to stutter and breakdown ball recovery goes down the drain.
Looking at the stats - who does the wrong things insofar as backline play is concerned (inclusive of kicking balls away aimlessly and running straight at the first defenders) and the same names come up regularly and those are not the names of the inexperienced players - it is the names of the experienced ones.
Incidentally you get foolish cases like players kicking balls away when in space in attack situations - Skinstad referred to two cases where De Jongh kicked balls away under such circumstances - one straight out and the other one straight into the hands of the full back.
Lastly - it is not the kicking issue here at all - it is the question of aimless kicking resulting in ball handovers to the opposition. Some kicks can be effective in attack situations - but those should be used as a variation of play and not regularly. The mindless kicking away balls for the sake of kicking is absolute rubbish - and those are done by clueless mostly experienced players.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Apr 2014, 07:02#34
Brevity is the soul of wit.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2014, 07:40#35
Mozart
OK lets summarize as to what is wrong in SA backline play:-
* Running straight at first defenders while hogging balls.* Minimal breakdown ball protection and slow recovery* Poor decision making* Poor. ineffective or even non-existent passing game* Defici ent ball handling skills* Aimless kicking
You can put names to the above and the same names pop up every time.
Incidentally I saw a pass by Malherbe on Saturday that was better than any backline player made for ages and De Allende drew in two defenders and passed the ball to a player with minimal space and the player scored a try. Why is it impossible for most of our senior players to do that?
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Apr 2014, 15:33#36
Just shows how stupid Boglogic is, Swiel had a solid game highlighted by his great break....wake up you idiot
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2014, 16:34#38
Denny
You are 100% correct here. I saw a much improved player in Potgieter playing for the Waratahs.
What he said is correct as well. People shout and scream about Alberts - but he cannot and does not pass balls to save his life. Vermeulen and Louw barely can = they virtually never pass balls in any event. The only loosies in SA that shows positive signs of ball skill is Labuschagne and Van der Walt - the rest is piss poor in the relevant regard,
However, the same can be said about our backkline players - they are absolutely clueless. They cannot read the game and do weird things like skip passing and destroy an overlap situation, making a line break and then kicking the ball away - you name it and they have done it. Most cannot throw a decent pass if they are paid extra to do it and recipients miss catches like anything. And then their running lines - they think they can run over opponents - the poor buggers never do.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
22 Apr 2014, 16:48#39
Moffie: "Brevity is the soul of wit"
That would explain why Moffie's dick gets so many laughs!
