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FORUM / RUGBY /  Time for some realism

Time for some realism

Started by Mozart39 REPLIES472 VIEWS· 27 May 2014, 09:27
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 May 2014, 09:27
#1
27 May 2014, 09:27#1

This happens every year.....posters decide perfectly ordinary players like Coetzee should be Boks. It won't work, test rugby is much more physical and frenetic. Many of the guys will fade even in next years S15....like Rhule, Lappies, Coetzee and JJ have faded this S 15.


So don't be surprised if Mvovo isn't the fullback, Reinach isn't the scrum half and Lood isn't the 4 lock. Test experience counts for a lot.....for every successful international coach.



The damnable thing is .....we need new blood. Every team does, to get the right balance of experience and enthusiasm. 


Right now we need new wings and centres, new props and replacements for guys like Schalk and Brussouw who struggle to stay healthy. The irony is, to use Schalk as an example...we simply don't have another flank with half his sense of play and ability to link forwards and backs.



The problem is finding new players who make the kind of case that Schalk made at RWC03. That Jean and Habana made in their first tests. That Etzebeth made in 2012. These are the great players....they look the part from the start....the kind of players who become incumbents.


Only at lock can one see a new cadre of possible incumbents.

3K
3ku1Pro2,580 posts
27 May 2014, 10:20
#2
27 May 2014, 10:20#2
 I agree with most of this, but Coetzee hardly faded, he was injured several weeks ago, so he hasent had a chance to fade away lol. I like Coetzee he hasent got much of a running game, but he runs direct, just needs to work on his skill set. Back row for me would be 6. Brussouw 7. Louew 8. Vermuleun.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 May 2014, 10:40
#3
27 May 2014, 10:40#3
 Mozasrt
You have serious realism problems and normally goes on with a tangent coming up with the wrong conclusions.  T start off Labuschagne played very well when he was available - but he has been injured and is out with an injury since about middle April.   He was and is still the best all-round 7 we have and that is a fact.
Our problem is there are more incumbents who struggled this year than in most years and  we have to find replacements for s number of players:-
*   Morne Steyn has had minimal game time because he was not considered god enough to play for Stade Francais - should never have been an incumbent since he is too one-dimensional and robotic.
*   Jannie du Plessis was desperately poor throughout the season and has developed a tendency to maintain scrumming levels throug illegal means - resulting in coutless penalties against him.  
*  Alberts veer from game to game - lazy as ever he does not enter mauls, his tackling is a mixed bag and he has shown continuation with his inability to protect breakdown ball protection and ball recovery. 
*  None of the foreign based forwards who played last year for the Springboks showed much in the club environment they are playing in.  Bakkies Botha was injured for months and when he came back he was very very average.   Steenkamp is a definite no-no and even Louw was absent from rugby for a long time as a result of injury.    
I liked very much of what I saw of Burger on his return after nearly 3 years absence from Rugby - but it is already evident that he would not last long.  His injury absences are mounting and that is not going to change.
We need reconsideration in a number of positions - starting off with center.   JJ is not shaping up as an outside center and the answer is not Fourie or JJ.    I think from his latest statements that Meyer may be looking at De Allende - but we will have to wait and see what actually happens.   
De Villiers are also becoming injury-prone - normal int he case of aging players.  It is evident that Meyer is hoping that he would carry on through to the WC.   He will have to be protected and used more carefully if that is to be achieved.   Francois Steyn is not the answer - his performances at center was dismally poor this year - so we are down to Serfontein and De Allende 0 but the latter sounds more and more a candidate for the 13 position. 
9 remains a wide open proposition - ultimately there seems to be only two candidates -  Goosen and Lambie - with some others like Pollard on the horizon.  A tricky situation.
Both the incumbent scrummies have problems as well.  Pienaar and Du Preez are both slowing down.   Whereas Du Preez is playing in Japan - where players are playing in relaxed circumstances where they do not maintain the required levels of fitness and performances - like Kaino indicated in a recent statement - you get slowness setting in and performance is a mixed bag.   Pienaar this year was also decidedly poorer in the European competitions than he was in the past.
We have had no problems at no 8 - where Vermeulen remains the only real candidate.  If he is injured we are in hot water - with only one real alternative in Van der Walt - on the horizon.
We have a problem at 7 - because Alberts is not the answer.  However, there are adequate replacement possibilities for him.   
Locks we have  no problem in this position - no problems in finding replacements either.
Props are somewhat problematic - we have to replace Jannie du Plessis - but the possible  replacements are all good enough.  It is at loosehead where we are rather thin on the ground if Beast is not available.
The critical problems remain in the following positions - where replacements before the WC will have to be considered:-
13. 10, 9. 7 and 3             
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
27 May 2014, 12:02
#4
27 May 2014, 12:02#4
 

At times one needs to push the boundaries a tad, but to do so you’d have to have an adventurist spirit. Show a little courage. Cast conservatism aside. Be a bit of a risk taker, that’s prepared to expose his chin if things go wrong.


Meyer is the exact opposite. He doesn’t have the cahones. No confidence in chancing his arm.


The only times he selects differently is when his hand is forced. That way if things go wrong he’s not to blame.


I agree that test experience is very important. Fielding an entire match 23 of newbies is madness.


Getting a mix of young blood in with the experienced players is the only way to move forward. That way you build momentum and self confidence


Some of the posters on this board don’t seem to understand that. It’s beyond me!!


Meyer’s team will probably look something like this.


1.   Beast

2.   Bismarck

3.   Jannie

4.   Flip

5.   Victor

6.   Kolisi

7.   Alberts

8.   Vermeulen

9.   Du Preez

10. Goosen (Morne if he was available)

11. Basson

12. De Allende

13. JJ

14. JP

15. Willie

16. Strauss

17. Nyakane

18. Coennie

19. De Jager

20. Kankowski

21. HouGat

22. Serfontein

23. Fat Fransie


 How he expects to take this team forward to the WC and b e competitive is beyond me.




CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 May 2014, 12:37
#5
27 May 2014, 12:37#5
Cleancut
With respect - while I agree with most that you have written - I think that Meyer is on the hunt for at least one change and that is the no 13 position.   I think he will try and panel beat De Allende to play at 13 and in the absence of De Villiers - use Serfontein at 12.  At least that is hat I can gather from his latest comments - but as said earlier there are at times a difference between what he says and what he does.
Be it as it may - we have a serious problem at 13 - neither of the attack-deficient Fourie and JJ is the answer.   Maybe Meyer would come up with something.   The player he constantly ignores - Jordaan - may ultimately the answer - but Meyer likes size - not competence.
Th other problem is Jannie - the penalty machine who managed to achieve the record in giving away 7 penalties in two games and collecting two yellow cards in the process.   I think we may yest see Malherbe in the starting line up.
Basson is a no-no - Meyer is bound to go with Habana and Pietersen as the wings with Mvovo on the bench.
I think by now Meyer must realize that after his Japan stint Kanklwski is a no-no and he may yet be out.   
Fat Fransie is unlikely to feature in anything.  I think Fatso is going off to japan and come back with a stomach thee size of the arc - same as the case was after his return from France - even slower than he is at present (though that is hard to imagine).   S oft rugby in Japan has a seriously detrimental affect on players.     .    
                  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
27 May 2014, 14:21
#6
27 May 2014, 14:21#6
 
Mike - the above team is not one I would select.

I have very different views on who our best are.

HouGat, JJ and Fat Fransie would be the first I send to Robin Island.

Jannie and Kolisi are not prospects I would entertain - EVER.

Basson, De Jager and Kankowski would all be shot at dawn.

Du Preez would be incarcerated in an old age home under armed surveillance. 

I would include the likes of Faff, Reinach, Whiteley, Jordaan, Juan Smith, Kockett, Schalk Brits, Bekker, Redelinghuys and Boom Prinsloo.

I would definitely use this opportunity to blood a few youngsters and my very first pick would be Marnitz Boshoff at 10.

9. Faff 10. Marnitz 11. Mvovo 12. De Allende 13 Jordaan 14. JP 15. Le Roux.

I know it's a very young and inexperienced backline but certain health issues with a few out of form players forces it upon us.

I don't rate Goosen at all. Patrick is out injured. Marnitz is the next best option and besides he has oodles of talent waiting to be tapped.

We don't want to play JJ. He is in desperate need of replacement. Jordaan is on fire and should have had his shot already. Best 13 in the country.

Jean is out injured so we need to bring in another and let's face it Serfontein hasn't exactly put his hand up. De Allende is the only option there

Faff and Reinach are hands down our best scrummies and fully deserve to be rewarded for an excellent season. You know how I feel about Kockett.

Juan is a man I rate highly. Better than Schalk at 7 and superior to Alberts in my opinion. He would walk my starting 15.

Schalk would be in contention for the 6 jersey ... even though I don't regard him as a 6... he's a lot better than that useless quota Kolisi. Brussow would be an option as well.

Lappies is a very mobile blindsider but doesn't have the mongrel needed in contact.


BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
27 May 2014, 15:03
#7
27 May 2014, 15:03#7
 Post your complete team..You have your backs..Whats your pack look like? Take injuries into account in one pack and then a pack you would like to see in a WC final if all were fit...Same with backs..
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
27 May 2014, 15:21
#8
27 May 2014, 15:21#8
 
What??? No "Clown Cunt" today??

Must be having a good day, huh?!!
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
27 May 2014, 15:24
#9
27 May 2014, 15:24#9
 Nah, you talking rugby now! Seriously interested to see what your team vs Wales (injuries) would be and what it would be without injuries if you could select. Not the conservative Meyer!
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
27 May 2014, 15:44
#10
27 May 2014, 15:44#10
 
Cool ... a little civility is welcome.

Injuries

1. Beast
2. Bismarck
3. Malherbe
4. Willemse
5. Matfield
6. Schalk
7. Juan (cpt)
8. Vermeulen
9. Kockett
10. Marnitz
11. Mvovo
12. De Allende
13. Jordaan
14. JP
15. Willie

16. Schalk Brits
17. Nyakane (loosehead cover)
18. Marcell
19. Flip (cover for both 4 & 5)
20. Louw
21. Faff
22. Morne (cause there's no other)
23. Taute

Without Injuries

1. Beast
2. Bismarck
3. Malherbe
4. Etsebeth
5. Bekker
6. Schalk
7. Juan
8. Vermeulen
9. Kockett
10. Marnitz
11. Mvovo
12. De Villiers (cpt)
13. Jordaan
14. JP
15. Willie

16. Schalk Brits
17. Nyakane (loosehead cover)
18. Marcell
19. PSDT
20. Louw
21. Faff
22. Lambie
23. De Allende

Yours??


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 May 2014, 15:50
#11
27 May 2014, 15:50#11
 boklogic
My team against Wales would be as follows - taking into account injuries:-
15  Le Roux,  15 Pietersen, 13  De Allende. 13 Serfontein,  11 Habana.  10 Goosen,  9 Du Preez,  8  Vermeulen,  7  Du Plessis.  6  Louw,  5  Flippie.  4  Etzebeth *. 3  Malherbe, 2 Bismarck,  1 Beast
16  Rallepele,  17  Van der Merwe, 18 Oosthuizen,  19 De Jager/Lewies,  20 Brussow, 21 Hougaard,  22 Boshoff,  23  Jordaan ** 
*  Etzebeth will be back for the test series** I pick Jordaan because he can cover 11, 12, 13 and 14 and Boshoff can cover 10 and 15

   
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
27 May 2014, 15:55
#12
27 May 2014, 15:55#12
 
Logic ... I was tempted to include Volminck but then knew you'd give me endless lip.

Mike ... and if there was no Etsebeth??

BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
27 May 2014, 16:26
#13
27 May 2014, 16:26#13
 I think Faf's skill is both a blessing and a curse for him. He definitely gets the Lions moving but Meyer will not like that from scrumhalf. He wants a programmed robot with a good boot. He hates unpredictability and thats what Faf is. He is also way too small and the way Skelton disposed of him was a scary foresight into what he can expect at international level. Faf is a damn good player but we need to see how he goes in the dreaded year 2 (second year syndrome) of top flight rugby. I doubt he will be as good as he was this year in his second year..
1. Beast2. Bismarck3. Malherbe4. Etzebeth (I heard he was back. If not Flip)5. Lewies6. Brussouw7. Alberts8. Vermuelen9. Kockett10. Frans11. Mvovo12. De Allende13. Jordaan14. JJ Engelbrecht15. JP
16. Cooper17. Coenie18. Marcell vd Merwe19. Matfield20. Mtembu21. Du Preez22. Marnitz23. Le Roux
This would be the team I would look at if I could pick the squad with injuries taken into account. I want to see what it was that ppl saw in JJ. I hear a lot about how great he was on the wing. If thats the case, we must have a look at him in the position that got him noticed. I just dont feel he has any attacking clout though but we need to know for sure. I have always wanted to see JP at 15. He is big, fast and has a good boot. He should have been one of the Bok greats at 15. I prefer Willie in the line, coming off his wing looking to be a nuisance so I would disgard him as a full back and start him at wing unless JP didnt work out. Then they would switch 14 and 15.Alberts "wins" us a lot of games with the hard work upfront. I cant chuck him aside although Juan Smith, if he is anything like he was, will have to be taken very seriously for the 7 jersey. He was the most underrated and unsung Bok of Jakes tenure. More important than Schalk in a lot of ways.The team above, I basically just want to see guys like Brussouw can recapture the form that made them Boks and if he can, he will have to play. I wana see Frans at 10 for the Boks.
Team in a WC final if all fit
1. Beast2. Bismarck3. Malherbe4. Etzebeth5. PSDT (Bekker very close but PSDT can command lineouts just as well)6. Schalk7. Alberts/Juan8. Vermuelen9. Kockett10. Lambie11. Habana12. JDV13. Jordaan14. Le Roux15. JP
16. Strauss17. Coenie18. Du Plessis19. Bekker20. Juan/Alberts21. Du Preez22. Frans23. De Allende
I dont know hey..That just how I feel now but it took me ages to write this as I had to change my mind countless times. Way too many good players. I mean, I know how good guys like Bekker, Juan Smith, Brussouw and co are and to put them in means guys like Lewies, Willemse, Flip, Matfield and co miss out..Its way too tough. Also, Marnitz is proving to be more than just a kicking flyhalf these days and he tackles pretty well. I thought he hated the physical stuff but he seems to be making some good hits these days...Funnily enough, number 9 is the one position I am sure about..All coaches have missed a big trick there. I know they say Kockett is "hard to manage" but I am sure he would have matured by now??
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
27 May 2014, 16:26
#14
27 May 2014, 16:26#14
Nah, I am not sure about Serfontein..Not at the expense of De Allende at least??
Ha ha Volmink ;-) He is actually not that bad and is often one of the best for the Lions but too far off the pace when you think of some of the guys we have around.
Mike, you are a little confusing bro..Where did you put Frans Steyn and Willem Alberts? I think you have forgotten about them ;-)Is that your team if you could select the squad but taking into account current injuries Mike?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 May 2014, 17:08
#15
27 May 2014, 17:08#15
 boklogic
Nowhere - that is where I will put them.  Steyn is not the player he used to eb and he is not a natural flyhalf as well.  He is off to Japan and if the other players coming back from japan is any yardstick - he will be unfit and overweight as well.   
Alberts can be brought in if he start to play a loosie game - stop loafing around behind mauls and start ball protection and recovery as well - plus learn how to pass balls and when.    A whole lot to learn for a  player nearing the end of his career - at 30 he is past his prime playing years already.    
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 May 2014, 20:40
#16
27 May 2014, 20:40#16

I'm very much afraid Serfontein is the new Wynand. JJ will never make it. Jordaan is too small to batter through tight RWC spaces, no matter what his stats say. Lambie likewise will not be on a par with Sexton, Barrett, Farrell and other RWC players. Seriously, how  is a small, slow chap without a step going to crack defences. Goosen has shied away from contact in most of his games....against the Stormers for example. he has the talent, but does he have the durability and is his competitive heart ever going to return?

 

 

There are far too many players here who wont be as good as their counterparts. The challenge is to find players who will outplay NZ, Oz, Pom opposition.

 

I like the idea of Kockett.....a competitor....let's say that again.....a competitor.

 

De Allende has the physical presence to outplay most of the big centres....but he needs a lot more centre software. If we want him to be an influence we have to make a commitment this year.

 

This kid Willemse is another very promising player....and we are lucky he is playing with Victor....getting a tutorial in every game.

 

 

But honestly many of these guys I see listed above aren't competitors and aren't physically dominating. That's a sure path to defeat.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 May 2014, 21:00
#17
27 May 2014, 21:00#17
 Mozart
Some serious questions for you - how is a slower bigger chap going to batter his way through northern defenses.   In all the games he played Steyn made 2 line breaks this year - none at center.   That while the smaller faster players made numerous such breaks.
This idea about physically dominating players reminds me at the same time of physically stupid players.  Most of the backline players are smallish and not physically as dominating as you try to make them out to be.  Most are also one-dimensional and not as good as you would make us believe.  
The smaller players need to play clever rugby to prevail and if they do that the "baby elephants" you always preach about  stands no chance against them.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 May 2014, 23:30
#18
27 May 2014, 23:30#18
I remember back  in about 2001 when an Aussie backline comprised of guys like Tune, Herbert and Mortlock just ran right over our chaps. Every time a player was tackled he simply offloaded to the next big man. We couldn't stop them short of the advantage line....now think of a backline composed of Frans, Jean and de Allende. The opposition has the problem.
But I'm guessing this is another dig at Frans....so find me a South African flyhalf who has gained more than 206  metres in the last four games.....or any consecutive 4 games. He is making big yardage, kicking points , stopping the big guys in 10 channel and shaping up as an effective fetcher. Those who are missing all this should check their powers of observation.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 May 2014, 00:41
#19
28 May 2014, 00:41#19
 Mozart
Big verbal garbage again.  Steyn has the worst record in defense of any flyhalf in Super 15 and also at center - though De Jongh is catching up fast.   That makes me wonder seriously about  him "stopping the big guys in 10 channel".   He has bigger problems with speedier players and made a proper mess of tackling Slade in the Crusaders game.   
Sorry Mozart you quote stats selectively again.    Qute all of them and add the ones on possession turnovers caused by Steyn.   Those in itself makes him impossible to consider at flyhalf.  At venter he made less meterage than even JJ Engelbrecht made.  His problem is that he is way too slow to be in that position. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 May 2014, 02:56
#20
28 May 2014, 02:56#20
 Translation.....No, I can't find any South African 10 that made anywhere near 206 metres in any four consecutive games, so I will rely on obfuscation and insults to cover my embarrassment. That about right?
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
28 May 2014, 05:28
#21
28 May 2014, 05:28#21
Moz - to your original point - I see De Allende as one of those players that can make an immediate impact.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 May 2014, 05:47
#22
28 May 2014, 05:47#22
 Mozart
Translation :  No, I can't find any South African 10 that made anywhere near 27 ball possession handovers  to the opposing team so I will rely on obfuscation and insults to cover my embarrassment. That about right?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 May 2014, 05:58
#23
28 May 2014, 05:58#23
I agree matey, he is a physically superior player. Pity he couldn't start next to Jean in June though....it would have been a big help.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 May 2014, 07:20
#24
28 May 2014, 07:20#24
I just did some checkups on Mozart;s favourite player (Fransie) compared to one he was demonizing until very recently (De Allende).   So lets look at those:-
                                         Fransie     De Allende
Tries scored                             0              4Try Assists                              2               2Line breaks                              4             12Turnovers                                5              7Lost possession                       20             11Penalties given away                11              3 Yellow-carded                           1              0
Mozart is very selective in using stats.   Steyn had four longer distance carries in recent games - so that becomes all that counts.   One of those carries involves a try assist - the other try assist of Steyn came from a cross kick to Ndungane in the first Super 15 game.
Althopugh not credited as try assists a number of line breaks made by De Allende lead to tries being scored - eg the De Villiers try against the Cheetahs and two tries scored by Juan de Jongh.   
There were one game in which De Allende was poor insofar as possession losses is concerned (the Crusaders game) where he lost ball possession 4 times.   In the other 11 games he lost ball  possession 7 times.   With Steyn it is a consistent problem throughput the series.
The problem remains is that there are more negatives to the performances of Steyn than Mozart would admit.
Problem is also that De Villiers prefers to play at 13 whenever De Allende plays at center. That became evident early in the Super 14 series this year when De Allende played at 12 and De Villiers at 13.   The reason is obvious - De Allende is not only a very good ball carrier - but he is also a very good off-loader of balls - which De Villiers can use better.   So if the center pairing for the Springboks is going to be De Allend and De Villiers it is very likely that it would be the same - De Villiers at 13 and De Allende at 12.   Like was the case for the Stormers - I am sure De Villiers would be able to persuade Meyer to do just that.            
            
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 May 2014, 07:57
#25
28 May 2014, 07:57#25
 Translation translation ....the Oom still can't find a SA flyhalf that has made nearly 206 metres in four consecutive games. Is this a capitulation?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 May 2014, 08:12
#26
28 May 2014, 08:12#26
 Translation translation.
Mozart still cannot find another flyhalf that gave away so many ball possessions and penalties,  as well as missed so many tackles as did his favourite flyhalf.
I do not want to go through the stats again - have done it time and time again and then those were ignored by Mozart because they do not support his crazy idea of certain flyhalfs.    Selectivity does not help - look at all games throughout the series played by players in certain positions and then  come up with answers.
Typically Mozart is a sucker for one incident occurrences in a series of games.  That occurrence is then the norm - which obviously can never be.           
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
28 May 2014, 08:29
#27
28 May 2014, 08:29#27
I hope u don't mind but I did some number crunching myself. Steyn sits on 44 log points. De Allende 24. Steyn has won 10 games, De Allende 5. Those are the only numbers that count!
Mike, I can't believe u would rather see the Sharks lose and wish bad on them than be wrong about Frans and Alberts. You are supposed to be a Natal boy!!!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 May 2014, 11:53
#28
28 May 2014, 11:53#28
boklogic
I do not mind them in the Sharks team - although  they are mostly riding on the back of other players - but for the Springboks it is a different story.  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
28 May 2014, 12:21
#29
28 May 2014, 12:21#29
 
Like it or not ... we have a big problem at 10.

That includes Fransie Steyn. He has not impressed me at all this season. I'm not going to go down the same road as Mike and Mozart with their useless stats. They're pointless and do not tell the whole story.

The Sharks are doing well in spite of Steyn not because of him. 

He doesn't like to pass, lo ses the ball in contact, fancies a drop shot at the posts from his own 22 and turns ball over almost every time he touches it.

He can however be pretty solid in defense at times. The lads a big unit no doubt about it but let's be serious and not argue for the sake of arguing ... Fats Steyn is not an option for any position within the Bok squad. We need to bring someone with talent in. Steyn doesn't have any.

Goosen isn't the answer ... that much has been made abundantly clear this season ... neither is Jantjies ... nor Potgieter.

Lambie hasn't made the step up and Morne isn't exactly a world beater either.

So who do we have left. The youngsters from the Sharks ... Swiel and Zelanga and of course my lad, Marnitz.

All three have shown talent.

Meyer will ignore them all and select Morne.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 May 2014, 12:55
#30
28 May 2014, 12:55#30
 Clean Cut
There is a problem with Morne also - he had very little game time over the last five months bceause Stade Francais did not find him good enough to start for their team.  Whenever he played - even from the bench - he seems to bugger up their game and cost them log points.
So Meyer has a problem - since indications are that the following is the case at 10:-
*   A completely underdone Morne Steyn*   Francois Steyn apparently out with injury*   Lambie still out with injuury*   Pollard in NZ for the Under 20 WC
Theta leaves them with only three flyhalfs - lets face it they have al; been criticized to some extent.
*   Goosen*   Potgieter*   Boshoff*   Sias Ebersohn (Lets call him the dark horse)
Boshoff started of extremely well in Super 15 - but has shown some decline in form in recent matches.  I think Meyer wanted to have a look at him - especially since he was a Blue Bulls reject.   Potgieter had some serious form dips and showed some flaws and was at one stage replaced by the unavailable Pollard.   I do not think that Meyer would consider Ebersohn - but he may be desperate enough to do just that.
However, the only real candidate is Goosen and I think he would be Meyer's choice - unless Meyer is prepared to forget the Stade Francais problems of Morne Steyn and make the serious mistake of picking him.
In any event I think that a lot of people underrates Goosen and he would have been my first choice flyhalf in any event.           
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
28 May 2014, 14:17
#31
28 May 2014, 14:17#31
 
Goosen is afraid of being injured. He ducks and dives all forms of contact in the hopes of avoiding injury.

This season I've seen him play one decent match.

In other words he doesn't contribute to his teams defensive play when his side doesn't have the ball. He's even worse than Fats Steyn. At least Fats is trying to do something. Goosen does sweet fanny blowall.

If you consider Goosen our best option then my friend we're deeper in the dwang than first thought.

At the start of this season many of us said that we'd be watching Goosen this year. That we hoped he'd remain healthy so that we could see his caliber.

Well boet ... we're deep into the season and personally he looks more like a pellet gun to me than a 357 magnum.

Not good enough for the Bok 10 jersey I'm afraid.


BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
28 May 2014, 14:55
#32
28 May 2014, 14:55#32
 Disagree Mikey..I strongly believe Marnitz has actually been better lately than he was in the beginning. Its much easier to perform on the highveld but to go overseas and almost topple the Highlanders and put up a brave showing against the high flying Force was not easy..
My only concern with Marnitz is that he was winning games with the boot. Is all he is worth come through his boot?? Answer is no..He actually has a pretty solid defensive game and he likes to go for a run too. Whether he is the answer to Bok number 10 jersey is not clear but then again, like CC says, what are our options?
Please, just not another year of Morne Steyn! He is not an AB beater!
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
28 May 2014, 15:03
#33
28 May 2014, 15:03#33
 
And to add to that ... Meyer has the ability to boost a players self belief ... and with a powerful pack giving him front foot ball ... ??? ... not to mention the benefit of having an experienced task master in Du Preez outside him, guiding him ... Marnitz could easily learn and come away a very different man.

I have full confidence in this young lad.

Yes ... no more Morne ... please. It's time to move on.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 May 2014, 15:17
#34
28 May 2014, 15:17#34
The only bit of realism we will witness is that our coach will cock the selection of the test team up - starting with the selection of Matfield at lock. This guy is a physical liability.......we need our test locks asserting themselves physically, not running around throwing great dummies in the backline or taking his share of line-out or kick-off ball.....nor more or less than any other test standard lock out there.

As for JJ fading - what utter rubbish.......the guy has not only emphatically put the bed the pathetic notion that he cant tackle, he has firmly established himself as the best defending centre in the entire competition this year. His attacking credentials were never in question, the fact that he operates in a side that never plays it wide is hardly his fault. JJ has got very little attacking ball this year - a player can only attack with the ball, its called perspective......something Moz is completely devoid of. If JJ had cocked up attacking opportunity after opportunity this year then fair enough - point fingers at him.......fact is, he has been no more or less effective with ball in hand than Jean, de Jongh, Sadie, Frans, Jordaan, Watermeyer, Mapoe or Sithole have and thats a fact.

As for Coetzee, he was solid at test level when he played and has elevated his game to another level this year, the mark of a quality player. Easily one of the best loosies in the comp this year and would have thrived in the test arena had he been fit.

So back to the realism - as I said, we will see Meyer stuff our selections up with this warped idea that all these old farts are the way forward......dont be surprised to see Kirchner, Habana, Fourie, Jean, Morne, du Preez, Pienaar, Steenkamp, Bakkies, Matfield, Schalk and Smith form part of our test equation this year and with that any chance of beating Oz or NZ at all. Meyer has no idea and that will be exposed this year......mark my words.


BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
28 May 2014, 15:20
#35
28 May 2014, 15:20#35
 Problem with Morne is that he does not have age on his side. This is as good as he will ever be. In fact, I fear we have seen the best of him and frankly, it has not been consistently good enough. He will not "mature" as a guy like Lambie or Boshoff can. In terms of a rugby player, he is old! We must move on..
No use selecting guys like Boshoff and De Allende if you dont plan on playing them so yeah, I reckon Boshoff deserves a go this upcoming series. Especially if the rumours that Frans Steyn is injured are true. Not that Steyn is a better player but he is likely ahead of Boshoff as he has been winning games at 10 for the Sharks and he has plenty test experience that Meyer will no doubt favour!
Its actually a bit of a shame that Meyer (and traditionally all Bok coaches) is so conservative. I would love to see them cast "names" aside and play "form" because I want to see what guys like Mtembu, Whiteley, Jordaan, Faf and Lewies can do at test level. These are all form players! Instead, we will see the usual bore and grind of Du Preez, Bakkies and co!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 May 2014, 15:54
#36
28 May 2014, 15:54#36
 Cleancut
With respect - you try and imply that Goosen is injury-prone and try and avoid contact.   It is difficult to combat such general allegations and the only way to see whether there are  tendencies notable in players is to look at their stats over the series.
First of all the injury story this year.   Despite the melodramatic announcements  of Mozart about injuries there was only one serious injury and that was related to concussion - an injury that stems directly from contact with players and in a way detract from your statement that Goosen is afraid to make contact and by doing so avoid injuries.   Mind you there were a lot of players this year that missed games as a result of concussion - so it is not an indication of injury prone players.
Secondly lets look in more detail at Goosen's stats:-

Goosen

1/0

129

84/179/60

216

1

11

10

5

74/13

0/0

3

0/0


Goosen always was a type  flyhalf that kicks less and passes balls more than normal SA flyhalfs - in other words he plays a more balanced and less-predictable  technical game than other flyhalfs,   However - he did carry the ball 60 times for an average gain of  3.6 meters per carry.   In the process he amde 1 line break and beat 11 defenders - also not indicative of a player who tries to void contact.
A further interesting point is that he made 74 tackles and missed 13 tackles.   That represents a missed tackle ratio of 14,9% - which is entirely acceptable - bearing in mind that francois Steyn's ratio at flyhalf is over 20%.   The tackles stats does not confirm a tendency by Goosen to avoid contact.
I think that some people try and paint a picture of players which are their impression - but not really factual - so I have to state I diagree with your statement that Goosen "ducks and dives all forms of contact in the hopes of avoiding injury" - since all indicators indicate a contradictory situation.
    

 
     
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
28 May 2014, 16:55
#37
28 May 2014, 16:55#37
 
Ok Mike ... clearly he's your man. You wanna bring out meaningless stats ... be my guest. We've all read how you guys make the necessary adjustments to suit your argument.

Pointless horseshit if you ask me.

The mere fact that he's had a mediocre season tells enough of a story ... all the hype around him has no foundation ... he's not what we all had hoped for ... actually by some way ... just another average club player ... and that's enough for me to remove his name from the hat as a possible Bok 10.

Next ... !!!

 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 May 2014, 18:27
#38
28 May 2014, 18:27#38

For discussion, here's my take on the South African flyhalves:

 

Morne is a Bools style kicking flyhalf. He is not a natural runner with the ball....nor is he anything more than an adequate defender. But he is a great kicker of the ball....and as we saw at Ellis Park for Habana's two tries.....he can time and throw a good long pass. He is also an experienced/steady decision maker at 10.

 

Lambie is really not physically set to be much more than a Morne clone. He may be slightly better on the run and in the tackle....but he isn't impactful at either. And he is not as good a kicker and crucially not as mentally tough. I'd hate to see the last RWC kick being given to Lambie

 

Goosen's reputation is based on his open field runninng and huge boot. But he is not as good a tactical kicker as Morne, and his running is compromised by his flinching from contact. His decision making is still a bit of a mystery and his tackling is probably the weakest of the candidates. Then there is the effect on the team of  playing with  injury risk...a ticking time bomb.

 

We have the youngsters Pollard and Swiel. To me Pollard has a better head at this stage and looks more rugged. But time will tell....after RWC15. Perhaps Pollard has a bench shot....but it's a long one.

 

 

And so on to Marnitz ....a rugged player. I don't think he passes as well as Morne and I don't think he reads the game as well as Morne. For the rest he may be a bit better. A deadly goal kicker, solid tackler and reliable runner in tight spaces. To me this is the closest option for a straight Morne swop....but in the end, the edge where it exists is too slight to lose all Morne's experience. Then there is a nagging thought that at one stage Cat looked just like Marnitz and where did that take us?

 

So finally on to my pick Frans. Not a neat package by any means. He has been charged, lost his boot for a game, missed some tackles.....lost some balls. He obviously likes his meals. But he is a huge talent. He can run in tight spaces and offload. He smashes players when he gets hold of them....ask Beal or Shane Williams. And he had the nerve to kick the RWC winner at 20.  He is still learning the flyhalf game....but winning matches along the way.

 

The choice in essence comes down to a classical kicking flyhalf...Morne. And the kind of rugged player at 10 that seems  to ignite Bok teams. Id play Frans with Morne on the bench.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 May 2014, 18:27
#39
28 May 2014, 18:27#39

For discussion, here's my take on the South African flyhalves:

 

Morne is a Bools style kicking flyhalf. He is not a natural runner with the ball....nor is he anything more than an adequate defender. But he is a great kicker of the ball....and as we saw at Ellis Park for Habana's two tries.....he can time and throw a good long pass. He is also an experienced/steady decision maker at 10.

 

Lambie is really not physically set to be much more than a Morne clone. He may be slightly better on the run and in the tackle....but he isn't impactful at either. And he is not as good a kicker and crucially not as mentally tough. I'd hate to see the last RWC kick being given to Lambie

 

Goosen's reputation is based on his open field runninng and huge boot. But he is not as good a tactical kicker as Morne, and his running is compromised by his flinching from contact. His decision making is still a bit of a mystery and his tackling is probably the weakest of the candidates. Then there is the effect on the team of  playing with  injury risk...a ticking time bomb.

 

We have the youngsters Pollard and Swiel. To me Pollard has a better head at this stage and looks more rugged. But time will tell....after RWC15. Perhaps Pollard has a bench shot....but it's a long one.

 

 

And so on to Marnitz ....a rugged player. I don't think he passes as well as Morne and I don't think he reads the game as well as Morne. For the rest he may be a bit better. A deadly goal kicker, solid tackler and reliable runner in tight spaces. To me this is the closest option for a straight Morne swop....but in the end, the edge where it exists is too slight to lose all Morne's experience. Then there is a nagging thought that at one stage Cat looked just like Marnitz and where did that take us?

 

So finally on to my pick Frans. Not a neat package by any means. He has been charged, lost his boot for a game, missed some tackles.....lost some balls. He obviously likes his meals. But he is a huge talent. He can run in tight spaces and offload. He smashes players when he gets hold of them....ask Beal or Shane Williams. And he had the nerve to kick the RWC winner at 20.  He is still learning the flyhalf game....but winning matches along the way.

 

The choice in essence comes down to a classical kicking flyhalf...Morne. And the kind of rugged player at 10 that seems  to ignite Bok teams. Id play Frans with Morne on the bench.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 May 2014, 21:44
#40
28 May 2014, 21:44#40
 Saffex
There is no way that there is not a problem with JJ insofar as attacking play is concerned.   he is still playing like a win and not a center.  He runs straight at the fiorst defender and make no effort to even aim at the gap between the center and wing or cut inside between his direct opponent and the inside defender.   He also make no impact on off-loading of balls in tackle situations.
I am afraid that Meyer is looking for another option at 13 and that option is likely to be De Allende.   There are  various differences between the two players as is evident from the following:-
*   From a pace perspective JJ is better than De Allende
*   De Allende is a stronger ball carrier and a more effective one as well since he regularly draws in more defenders creating space for other players to run into.
*   De Allende has an excellent passing and off-loading game - something missing in JJ's game - and that makes a huge difference to players who play around him.
I am afraid that once De Allende is in the no 13 position it is going to be very hard for any players to dislodge him - something like happened in the case of Willie le Roux s bound to happen .  Maybe it would be better for JJ to switch and play in his natural position on the wing.              
— END OF THREAD —

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