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FORUM / RUGBY /  To Kick or Not to Kick

To Kick or Not to Kick

Started by Gonzo the Great26 REPLIES315 VIEWS· 31 Jul 2014, 12:38
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GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
31 Jul 2014, 12:38
#1
31 Jul 2014, 12:38#1

I hate to say it, but most of you guys really don't have a clue about what is really happening on the field. Mozart correctly mentioned this as people blindly follow whatever they read by journos that really are pathetic idiots at times and ridiculously deceitful the rest of it. So the argument is that we don't kick and we need to "run it" more. Shezza the not so bright big mouth said that the attacking team has the advantage so kicking becomes an archaic liability. I say bulldust! Any attacking stats will show that after four phases the defence gets stronger and starts to maintain it's shape and the attackers lose momentum. Even the lower ranked teams are much better at organizing their defensive patterns than ever before. Kicking is CRUCIAL to playing modern rugby. So much so that New Zealand annually kick more than us.

I think South Africans are stuck in a time lock in the 80s and can't get out. Everything I read from almost everyone talks 80s style rugby where any individual can grab the ball and run it. And thats exactly the problem, the game style the fans are calling for is completely individualistic. I even hear our coaches talking like that. they expect individuals are going to magic the problem away. Well it hasn't happened and isn't going to happen. Now kicking is the problem. What, are we going t resurrect Viljoen's policy of anyone who kicks gets dropped? Some lessons are apparently never learned at all and that's really sad.

Here's something to think about. In 2009 we had New Zealand on the ropes and belted them. But they responded. They were weak under the high ball and lost the territory battle running constantly from deep only to be turned over and penalized. They overtook from 2010 and beat us at our own game. New Zealand are winning the aerial battle time and again and the Ellis Park test was a total disaster because we went back to the model of 2009 that New Zealand abandoned! Remember Dagg, the guy who couldn't catch and was only a runner. He has probably been New Zealand's best back over the past few years, but not because of his attacking ability but because of his total domination of the air and his massive racking boot that sends opponents from one 22 to the other. Add to that that they have bettered us at the lineouts the past two years and you start to see why we are not beating them.

Now I understand that you have to attack but you must not attack only and from everywhere. Last year at Ellis Park we ran everything and despite what Shezza would have you all believe we continually lost the ball a few phases after every attack either by turn over or by running out of steam and errors that follow down that blind ally. Yes we need to be smarter on attack or maybe I should say more functional. It's one more tool in your tool box, not the only tool. Right now we have almost the entire game put together. We have the best scrum any Bok side has had in almost 16 years and a strong presence at the breakdowns for once. With the veterans returning we have lineout dominance, a maul that is truly feared and speed to burn. We just need those small tweaks to balance it out. But it's not going to come from a messiah 10, but by better play as a team. Defensive systems defend as a team, you need to beat them on attack as a team. That's modern rugby. I thought you all learned this when the Highlanders showed up the Sharks.

Oh and lastly, kicking is not ten man rugby. It takes 15 men to pull off a tactical kicking game. If you are playing anything like 10 man rugby when kicking then you are doing it all wrong. Another myth blown for today. Peace out

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
31 Jul 2014, 13:38
#2
31 Jul 2014, 13:38#2
 Good post! Good example was the Stormers/Sharks game at Newlands. Stormers ran everything, but the sharks knew they were coming and were waiting for them time and again. You need to vary your game and keep the defense guessing. SA rugby neglects the chip kick over the defending back-line and we almost never see the little grubbers that Cruden does so well. Our kicking game is either up and unders, punting it down field as far as possible or kicking for touch. 
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
31 Jul 2014, 14:53
#3
31 Jul 2014, 14:53#3
What is it with people and manipulating what I say? I feel as if I'm in some sort of parliament where the politicians will try any dirty trick to make you sound/look stupid...
What I said was 'Kicking has become less effective now that the laws favour the attacking team'. That doesn't mean stop kicking altogether, the message I was trying to get across was that kicking everything is useless as that is gifting possession. I believe I then went on to say (either in the same thread or a different one) HM is getting the right balance between kicking and running the ball. 
How about you read my posts for what they are and not lie about them, yeah? Dickhead.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Jul 2014, 15:29
#4
31 Jul 2014, 15:29#4
Bozo, let me guess, you know what you are talking about.......the man that said de Wet Barry was a better centre than Jean.......no more needs to be said - case closed  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Jul 2014, 15:32
#5
31 Jul 2014, 15:32#5
 There is one clear issue here - and that is kicking will always be part of the game of rugby.   What is required in kicking is that it -
*   must always have a specific goal in mind - either relieving pressure in own 22 by launching relieving kicks - even here distance is important - but equally important is to ensure that the opposing team cannot make quick throw-ins and counter-attack;
*   making strategic kicks to gain territory as a basis for further attacks = long kicks down teh center of the field is not strategic - it has to many chances for counter-attacks and for possession losses;
*   kicking high up-and-unders to put the opposition recipient under pressure - accuracy in doing so is essential  - if not it can lead to disaster through counter-attacks;   
*   kicks near the try line - normally dribble kicks - to allow for follow-up and scoring of tries.
The problem with some of our players are that therir kicking is widely erratic and aimless.   For instance I have seen  where their is a take in a line-out on opposition through-in  on the halfway line and the best the flyhalf can do is to kick the ball over the tryline for an easy dotting down by an opposition player.   
Kicking aimlessly while in the opposition half of the field is an abomination - it merely represents handover of ball possession.   This happens far too often by our half backs.
The kicking game should be the result of proper reading of the game situation and this is where we come short in the main - plus of course accuracy.   Some players can launch extremely long kicks, but still be accurate gaining massive territory - for others it is a lottery ticket with no real aim or achievement.  
However, the main problem is that some players really do not know when to kcik and when not to.
There are players who give the kicking game a bad name because they really cannot execute a proper and accurate kick to save their lives.         
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
31 Jul 2014, 15:32
#6
31 Jul 2014, 15:32#6
 Shez, people tend to run with only the bits and pieces that suit them. I think all of us are fed up with aimless kicking. General stats does not reflect the effects of those kicks, so comparing just kicking figures is meaningless.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 Jul 2014, 16:00
#7
31 Jul 2014, 16:00#7

I think it's fair to say the Saders won in part because the Sharks never recovered a tactical kick, and the Saders had a chance at every tactical kick they made. So even if by chance we recovered a tactical kick, the receiver was immediately swamped. Where as they were often able to launch effective attacks from our tactical kicking. That difference gifted the Saders vast amounts of territory and possession.

 

And several Sharks  kicks, starting with the Jordaan duff into midfield, led almost directly to Saders points.

 

 

The Saders at times looked like the Bools at their best in the kicking game. Imagine that, NZ learning from us....whereas our would be coaches are trying to dump that skill. Could we be any more stupid?

 

 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Jul 2014, 16:05
#8
31 Jul 2014, 16:05#8

Good one Moffie, you are so far off the mark its laughable - do you actually think you know what you are talking about?

 

Saders learning from the Bulls......fuck me, can it get more stupid than this.....pack it in old man, have a lie down  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 Jul 2014, 22:05
#9
31 Jul 2014, 22:05#9

Well since 2007 the Bools have won 3 times, the Crusaders once. I know winning isn't your thing....but I guarantee you the Saders learned their lessons from the Bools in 2009 Semi .

 

23 May 2009Bulls 36–23 Crusaders
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2014, 01:28
#10
01 Aug 2014, 01:28#10
 Mozart
Why do you not look at the scenario pertaining to kicking - the need for accuracy - the ned to kick strtegically to put the recipient under pressure - the need to read the game and know when to kick and when not to kick and learn something in the interim.  
Carter and Slade, as well as Barrett and Cruden -  always kicked as many times as the SA players did - the difference is that their kicks are strategic and accurate and meets all requirements pertaining to a  top kickbng game.   They did not need to learn anything from the Bulls - other than to make sure they do not kick as aimlessly as the Bulls kickers kicked  - that is to avouid at all costs the pathetic kicking game of the Bulls kickers.
One thing is for sure - they do not kick other than to get a direct benefit from the kick - not the rubbish players like the Steyns dish up regularly.   

  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Aug 2014, 01:42
#11
01 Aug 2014, 01:42#11
Read my post you boring fool....what does it say? Huh? Yes it says the Sharks kicks didn't put the Saders under pressure....whereas the Saders kicks did create pressure. What an absolute ass you are. And if you think Slade is a more accurate tactical kicker than Morne you need your head read. Belay that....you need your head read period.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2014, 02:21
#12
01 Aug 2014, 02:21#12
 Mozart
Wake up - we are not dealing here with one match - even less so with one incident.   Do you realize we are dealing here with the wider issue "to kick or not to kick" - not what happened in a single match.  Can you never stop being a one-match or one-incident jerk?    
If you are too dumb to realize what in general should be the general principles pertaining to kicking - you are on par with the Steynss - to dumb to realize that they reguularly get it all wrong.   They do not even know when to kick and when not to kick as well as the nature of the kick to be launched.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Aug 2014, 02:55
#13
01 Aug 2014, 02:55#13

I was providing an example to illustrate the point that kicking can be effective. An example that's fresh in everybody's memory. That's how it pertained to the general point. I would not have to explain that to a kid with a primary school education, but apparently I have to explain it to you.

 

Look we get the fact you dont like Victor, Alberts, Morne and Frans. It's your right. Just stop polluting every string with it......there's a good old coot.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
01 Aug 2014, 04:13
#14
01 Aug 2014, 04:13#14
I doubt that anyone thinks that kicking is not an effective tactic. It not a case or run or kick!!. It is about option taking... which is the ability to think with equal or better ability- than a primate.  
Nick Mallett made a good comment recently about kicking- "Rarely does kicking from 1st phase possession ever result in a good kick...... (unless in your own 22 which is a routine clearance kick to relieve pressure). 
When outside your own 22- a kick can't go directly into touch..... Therefore it must go into space, otherwise the opposition back three will just catch it and run or kick it back (What ever is the best option). When kicking from 1st phase, or when the opposition back three is in a perfect position to field the kick- it is a waist of time. 
In the Super XV, and watching the Boks vs the All Blacks, we routinely see quality possession won by the Boks forwards aimlessly kicked away (Scrummie, flyhalf and even sometimes anyone if the team). This is first phase possession, or phase play where the opposition back three is in position to catch the ball without pressure. This is just giving the ball away, piss poor
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2014, 10:52
#15
01 Aug 2014, 10:52#15
 Mozart
I got the point you were trying to make - but I also share the point of view expressed by Sharkbok when he quoted Mallett as well   
However, the worst cases of poor kicking was definitely not what happened on Saturday.   There are even more shocking examples and unfortunately Frans Steyn was involved in a lot of such kicks.   Two examples are the following:-
*   In the Highlanders game there was a line out on the halfway line with a Highlanders throw in.  The Sharks won the line out and the ball was passed to Steyn.   He kicked the ball over the tryline and Ben Smith dotted it down with ease as a follow up was just not possible.     22 kick-in followed.   That was wore than a school boy error and was really a senseless usage of hard won ball.
*    In the Brumbies game last year the Sharks made a real attack from theiir own half of the field and ended up within the Brumbies 22.   The Sharks player was tackled - but the ball came back and Steyn kicked it straight into the hands of the Brumby full back who called a mark.   End of attack and that was it.   Incidentally it as after that incident that Plumtree dropped Steyn and said he is no center.  
Lambie's kicking game on Saturday was weak, but it never got the the low level of the above 2 examples.   Those really were the pits insofar as a kicking game is concerned.
The other issue I have a problem with is Morne Steyn - he has a new gimmick and that relates to not finding touch when he has to kick penalty kicks from hand.   In most recent games it happened twice in games - and if not twice - it is guaranteed to happen once.   
That is why I referred to the Steyns.   Their kicks are normally inaccurate and ill-conceived game after game.  It is not that I dislike them - it is a fact that they are bad news in respect of the kicking out of hand scenario.              
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
01 Aug 2014, 18:30
#16
01 Aug 2014, 18:30#16
 Mozart yet again you are the only one that getd it! Man you are a diamond in the rough and looking at Mike, BasketCase and Cheezer thats a lota rough. 
Cheezer I didnt read that post of yours so you prematurely ejactivated that nonsense im referring to your other outbursts against any kicking and all other kinds of fabrications about whst happens from you. Juzz keepin id realz homey.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
01 Aug 2014, 19:09
#17
01 Aug 2014, 19:09#17
Pathetic, childish and a liar.    
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
01 Aug 2014, 21:06
#18
01 Aug 2014, 21:06#18
 Goeie Fok, Mike, can you not forget about Frans Steyn for one day?

"However, the worst cases of poor kicking was definitely not what happened on Saturday.   There are even more shocking examples and unfortunately Frans Steyn was involved in a lot of such kicks. "

The Sharks kicked the ball 26 times and Frans Steyn kick it once...... one time only....... 1 kick...... Fuck is there any other way to put it for you. Have you even considered the fact that there were more players than Frans Steyn who were kicking the ball? Lambie's kicking game was anything but weak. It was as kak as can be and Reinach was not too far behind. Between the two of them they were responsible for 57% of all the Sharks' kicks out of hand. If there was a major balls-up with the Sharks' kicking game then the only logical place to start looking has to be those two.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2014, 22:55
#19
01 Aug 2014, 22:55#19
 Doffies
Can you read or are you too dim for that?   I did not deal with the last match - I dealt with the kicking throughout test and the  Super 15 season.   My problem is with the quality of kicks - which was poor by most players at flyhalf over the last two years.   The only kicking player who did better strategically than the rest - and twice as good as Morne - was Johan Goosen.   His kicks often enough caught the opposition out of position and scrambling to get to the ball - something players like Carter acheve regularly.   .          
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
01 Aug 2014, 23:36
#20
01 Aug 2014, 23:36#20
 Then why don't you say so, or did you deliberately leave a back door open again?

"However, the worst cases of poor kicking was definitely not what happened on Saturday.   There are even more shocking examples and unfortunately Frans Steyn was involved in a lot of such kicks. "

Having said that, I will repeat the following question in any case:

"Goeie Fok, Mike, can you not forget about Frans Steyn for one day?"
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Aug 2014, 03:48
#21
02 Aug 2014, 03:48#21
 Ceradunce
Why should I forget about Steyn when Mozart single him out for good play on Saturday - while he did bugger all in the game in question?   Mozart went for Lambie and has been promoting Steyn as the Springbok flyhalf for months now.   The message wa suin response to his constant harping about certain players.
There is no way that you have any sense and you are suffering from that dreaded disease of shit on the brain - meaning your one malfunctioning brain cell is smothered in shit.    
Now bugger off before I start quoting examples of BS kicks by your favourite - the below par Morne Steyn - you ignotant dropping o f snake shit.  
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
02 Aug 2014, 15:27
#22
02 Aug 2014, 15:27#22
 frans had no ball to play with you ding bat. now why didnt frans get any ball? because lambie was cocking everything up you ding bat. so why wont you come out and say that frans is better than lambie and that you were wrong praising lambie all along?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Aug 2014, 15:48
#23
02 Aug 2014, 15:48#23
 Gonzo
Frankly he was never in a position to get balls - for instance when there were two breakaways he was so far behind the runners that the forwards turned up before him.   
The above statement is confirmed also by the fact that Lambie passed the ball 9 times amd Fransie only received 5 balls.  You cannot pass a ball to somebody 10 meters behind you now can you?
Carthorse speed does not help a backline player.   
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
02 Aug 2014, 15:57
#24
02 Aug 2014, 15:57#24
 frans is as fast as anything other 12 in the game and he is definitely faster than lambie who has poor top speed and the acceleration of an oil tanker doing a u-turn. Face the facts, lambie was worse than frans has ever played at 10. lambie is a vodacom cup player.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Aug 2014, 16:31
#25
02 Aug 2014, 16:31#25
 WAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
FAT FRANS should go to Japan and PLAY RUGBY THERE.  He is nto good enough for Vodacom Cup Rugby.   Throughout Super 12 Frans buggered up the Sharks backline in every match he played  at 10 and every one he played in at 12 as well.
Pluntree was right - he is not a centers arse and he is a flyhalf's arse.      
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
02 Aug 2014, 16:53
#26
02 Aug 2014, 16:53#26
 Aww dont be so glum mikey, i know it hurts that nobody one planet earth believes you.


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
02 Aug 2014, 20:21
#27
02 Aug 2014, 20:21#27
 Skidzo, Mike may be wrong about a lot of things, but Fransie is not and hasn't been the player you make him out to be in a long while. Still good, but not nearly the best...by a long mile. 
— END OF THREAD —

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