Toeties Boks - who will remain in Erasmus plans

The following from news24:-

"They say a new broom sweeps clean.

What remains to be seen is just how much Rassie Erasmus, the new Springbok mastermind, will strip down the team favoured by predecessor Allister Coetzee at the back end of his troubled two-year tenure.

There have already been strong hints that he will introduce a few new faces - inevitable as these come to light during a fresh Super Rugby season, for example - and possibly re-empower certain stalwarts overlooked by Coetzee.

He is also highly likely to seek a greater representation from abroad (SARU seems willing to bend their 30-caps rule for overseas-based players), and again these may include some Boks either overlooked completely or used to a spartan extent by “Toetie”.

For at least some indication of how much the Bok team may change for the June Tests against Wales (once-off, Washington DC) and then a series against England (home), it is worth reminding of the final match-day 23 selected by Coetzee.

That was for the 2017 season-ender against a severely under-strength Wales in Cardiff on December 2, a game the Boks lost 24-22 to only confirm their general suffering at the time.

It is worth mentioning that some high-profile players missed that Euro tour through injury or unavailability, including Jean-Luc Du Preez, Warren Whiteley, Jaco Kriel, Frans Malherbe, Jan Serfontein and Ruan Combrinck.

Here are the starting players deployed at the Principality Stadium then, and our speculation on where they may stand under the “Rassie regime” in 2018:

15 Andries Coetzee

Probably only a dark horse for the Erasmus nod after too many innocuous Tests last year, although he was excellent in the Lions’ thumping of the Stormers last Saturday. All of Curwin Bosch, Warrick Gelant and overseas-based Frans Steyn and Pat Lambie may be ahead of him in the fullback plans of the new coach. Psst, wunderkind Damian Willemse a thought at fifteen, too?

14 Dillyn Leyds

Falling off the radar fast, it seems? The utility back-three man was overlooked for a Bok “camp” list issued by Erasmus recently, and hasn’t shown much of his attacking X-factor for the Stormers. The new coach may seek for a more muscular hallmark among his wings, too.

13 Jesse Kriel

A resurgent, more slippery and cerebral character this year, clearly benefitting from the new dimensions brought to the Bulls’ Super Rugby campaign under John Mitchell. There will be challengers, but expect Kriel to be thereabouts, at very least.

12 Francois Venter

Has played a murderous amount of rugby over the past year or more, and that hardly helps any Bok aspirations for June. The inside-centre berth will also be sought by the likes of Frans Steyn, Damian de Allende, Serfontein and Andre Esterhuizen.

11 Warrick Gelant

The exciting Bulls runner made his first start for the Boks against the Welsh … but at wing rather than preferred fullback. It is possible Erasmus will still consider him versatile, though a return to No 15 seems likelier. There are other, more specialist “gas men” to consider out wide.

10 Handre Pollard

Playing with enough assuredness for the Bulls to be considered, arguably, still front-runner for No 10 by South Africa. That said, he faces strong rival claims from Elton Jantjies, Robert du Preez and perhaps Lambie.

9 Ross Cronje

Expected to return to fitness on the looming Lions tour of Australasia. But he could also be a casualty of an Erasmus bag-shake at No 9, even if the various alternative options aren’t exactly Joost van der Westhuizen-like for proven Test quality …

8 Dan du Preez

Hampered by a shoulder injury in recent months, though the sturdy 22-year-old is just back and potentially still a candidate as Bok eighth-man this year. Nevertheless, much will depend on whether Erasmus wants Whiteley as his captain … and his thoughts on a certain, gnarly Duane Vermeulen.

7 Pieter-Steph du Toit

There’s an appealing battle looming for the Bok blind-side job, with at least two real powerhouses among the contenders … sometimes lock Du Toit and the Sharks’ in-form Jean-Luc du Preez. Du Toit was like a man possessed for the Stormers in a losing cause at Ellis Park last Saturday, as if to indicate that he’d really quite like to keep the SA No 7 jersey if the second row isn’t immediately an option, thank you …

6 Siya Kolisi

A (self-acknowledged) below-standard spell by franchise skipper Kolisi on the Stormers’ open side means the door may just be creaking open a tad for rival contenders. Still, there’s no Jaco Kriel to turn up real heat on him, regrettably, and Kolisi still has a few weeks to come good again.

5 Lood de Jager

A yeoman factor for the Bulls in 2018, carrying and tackling diligently and consistently, and looking a force at lineout time, into the bargain. At this point, seems a near shoe-in to keep the Bok No 5 shirt.

4 Eben Etzebeth

The big enforcer is in a race against time to be fit for the first part of the 2018 Test season, considering his inactivity throughout Super Rugby so far as he rehabs from a shoulder injury. But if he is back playing even a small dose of Super Rugby before the June obligations, expect him also to march straight back into his SA enforcer role.

3 Wilco Louw

Talk of Erasmus wooing back Saracens’ Vincent Koch into the Test picture should go a long way to keeping emerging tighthead prospect Louw right on his toes. I still fancy that the incumbent, 23, will remain the go-to guy as scrum anchor.

2 Malcolm Marx

Simply “no contest” for first-choice hooker. If Marx stays fit, he starts. It will be interesting to see whether Erasmus presses veteran Bismarck du Plessis back into service as back-up. After all, you lose very little in grunt.

1 Steven Kitshoff

Another Stormers pack member who has just slid a little off best known levels recently, though perhaps there’s been some over-use to consider. Still, Kitshoff is almost certain to remain among the top two Bok looseheads, with yeoman-serving Tendai Mtawarira (only two caps shy of his 100, remember).

* The forward substitutes that day in Cardiff included Bongi Mbonambi (absent for the Stormers for several weeks recently due to appendix problems), Trevor Nyakane (still a versatile prop candidate), Ruan Dreyer (slipping a bit in the tighthead pecking order?) and loosies Oupa Mohoje and Uzair Cassiem, both of whom may pay a price for being PRO14 rather than Super Rugby-visible of late.

Coetzee’s backline replacements in Cardiff were scrumhalf Louis Schreuder (playing decent rugby for the Sharks at times), Elton Jantjies (similarly in much more assertive form for the Lions again) and Lukhanyo Am (likely to fairly front-of-mind by Erasmus for the Bok No 13 jersey).

There is a serious deficiency here as well.  Another player with serious performance problems on test level.   I think that Rassie would rather start looking for a potential scrummy he will develop for the WC and that may mean Cronje may survive to play in the June tests – but there will be new blood brought in as from the Rugby Championship with the candidates being Schreuder, Van Zyl and Papier

Dan du Preez

He may feature in the longer run – but I think that the real candidates will be Whiteley, Jean-Luc du Preez or even Du Toit – that is if Rassie decides on the captaincy and wants Whiteley for that purpose.   However, Whiteley has been injury prone  this year and he may not feature in the June tests.    Vermeulen is  a definite NO-NO,  He is already over-the-hill and his performance is questionable.

Pieter-Steph du Toit     

Du Toit was by some distance the best performing lock and blindside flank this year.   He will be in the team – the question is in what position.   He is a useful selection since he can move to lock during matches if he is selected at 7.   If Whiteley is picked by Rassie – then Du Preez may be the 7 with Du Toit on the bench to cover both the lock and loosie positions.

Kolisi  

This one is not performing and represents a serious “political” problem for Rassie.    Other than Kwagga Smith -who should have continued to play sevens – there is no real loosie to replace him – but I do not think that situation would continue for long.

De Jager

No real competition here.  Will certainly remain as lock

Etzebeth

The fact that he played no rugby this year may result on him being benched in the June tests should the present situation continues until late May.   However, in the longer term he can be assured o selection provided there is no deterioration ion his performances.

Louw

There are only three real candidates for this position and those are Louw himself, Malherbe and  Du Toit    

Marx

No change – the question will be who would be on the bench and who would be the third hooker selected.

Kitshoff

A thoughtful post but obviously we don't know how he will put it together...there are some obvious choices and some less obvious...I still believe we have great talent which ever way one sees ones favourites...it's HOW it's put together as a team and coached accordingly to the individual strengths of players...it will be a mammoth task for any coach...I don't think we can have any confidence in Rassie until we see positive results...but there are the bankers, Marx, Kitshoff, Etzebeth,PSDT and maybe Gelant and Pollard but that depends because Robert Du Preez, Willie Le Roux (who is really performing at his Club in England) and Whiteley will be considerations too and the the other 2 Du Preez twins...

The question is, is Rassie good enough, maybe he is and will surprise us, except some who are more positive...the thing is is that it will take a mammoth effort of positive direction that can guide and tutor to get a side to click and gel  together that works extremely well...it has got to start well too and there is little room for error and excuses...this is not easy and we must be realistic...I don't think that wonder results will happen overnight and we must be patient...AC's fault was he could not lead , had no intelligent vision and was a panic mechanic...he was weak at inspiring confidence in young men...this is a key element of all successful coaches.

One thing that I believe though is that we have got to play aggressive 15 man attacking rugby...that is my belief. and we must select players that can do this.

I like your full backs, especially with Pat Lambie in the mix.

I think it's a no-brainer with Francois Venter coming in at center. He's an intelligent rugby player and the only real option to run the defensive line. Having said that, it would mean that the useless Kriel may well be left out altogether. I can only hope.

We all know what we have in De Allende. A pathetic defender who lacks the ability to get his outside man into the gap. He is not one who plays thinking man's rugby, probably due to his limited brain capacity. He's a power house, a brainless crash baller and not much else. I hope Rassie sees though all the hype and leaves him back in the change room ... in Cape Town.

Esterhuizen has put up his hand. He intimidates with his physicality and has developed a good off loading game. He must surely be a contender. That is if Rassie selects on merit.

Am is as average as can be. If he makes the team it will be because of his skin colour. Right now we have better options in Odendaal, Venter and Vorster at 13 ... and besides that ... Venter is surely to take up his spot at 13 as he hales from Rassies old stomping ground ... the Free State.

Ross Cronje isn't as poor as you're trying to make out. It's your usual bias stepping in here, Mike. Try to get a grip. However, we do have better options in Faf, Papier and possibly Shaun Venter from the Cheetahs. I don't rate Van Zyl all that highly. He's been totally out played by Papier.

I have no issues with your 10's. It would be good to see the last of Jantjies in a Bok jersey.

Dan Du Preez in my opinion is the less impressive of the two Du Preez brothers. He wouldn't make my squad. I would look abroad and bring Ruan Ackermann back into the mix. He's hard like his father and the perfect candidate to take up the Bok 8 jersey.

Right now I would like to see a loose trio of Kwagga, Jean-Luc and Ackermann. We can always make a few changes when Jaco Kriel and Whiteley return to health. I would also have Chris Cloete brought into the mix. Roelof Smit is also a natural opensider and must surely be a conterder.

Kolisi is useless. He should never have been allowed to don the Bok jersey.

Locks ... PSDT, Eben, Lood, Mostert, Snyman and Paul Willemse should all be in the mix to fight it out. My choices would go to Eben, PSDT and Willemse. Lood is a weed. 

Your tighthead choices are really poor. Tank Du Toit is not a tighthead's backside. He doesn't have the technique ... nor the power. It's laughable that he's even mentioned as a possibility. Dreyer is a much better scrummager ... and a plus in his favour is that he already has the technique down pat. There is no need to teach him how to scrum at 3.

Tank and Coenie are both retreaded loosehead props. Never going to work.

Malherbe is a penalty machine. He spends more time flat on his belly than anything else. Besides that ... he's injury prone. There is absolutely nothing special about him. He's useless in the tight loose as well.

My choices at 3 would be Louw, Dreyer and Koch.

Our looseheads stocks have improved over the last while. Schoeman must surely be a candidate. We also have Dylan Smith and Van Rooyen ... not to mention Kitshoff.

If Beast makes the squad then it's purely because of his skin colour.

Where Rassie's going to find his 50% black representation is beyond me. His only choice is to bring the usual useless quotas in and if he does that, I will be against him and everything he does from that day forward.

CC

There are points we would agree and others where we will disagree,   One of those were about Dreyer- he was shockingly poor in the tests insofar as scrumming is concerned and I do not rate players unable to take the step up from  Super Rugby level to test level.

I also differ from you insofar as Jean-Luc du Preez  and Ackerman are concerned,  Du Preez is a much better loosie than Ackerman - so he will in my opinion not make the squad.   I would prefer Whiteley at 8 and Du Preez at 7.   Since Kriel is injured and Kwagga really a sevens player the no 6 position is where I have problems.   

As said I think that you maybe wrong about Van Zyl and Papier as well.   Van Zyl only started  for the first time in the game on Saturday - he was off with an injury for the whole season till then.   I think Mitchell prefers him as starting scrummie - but I see Papier and Van Zyl in the longer term as the test scrummies and said that at the start of the season..   Insofar as Coetzee is concerned he was sub-standard in the tests last year and I would prefer a player who can take the step up to test rugby and Cronje failed in that regard - not as badly as Jantjies did, but he still failed.

Y think you accuse me of prejudice in the case of Cronje - bu t are you not prejudiced against De Allende?          

CC

There are points we would agree and others where we will disagree,   One of those were about Dreyer- he was shockingly poor in the tests insofar as scrumming is concerned and I do not rate players unable to take the step up from  Super Rugby level to test level.

I also differ from you insofar as Jean-Luc du Preez  and Ackerman are concerned,  Du Preez is a much better loosie than Ackerman - so he will in my opinion not make the squad.   I would prefer Whiteley at 8 and Du Preez at 7.   Since Kriel is injured and Kwagga really a sevens player the no 6 position is where I have problems.   

As said I think that you maybe wrong about Van Zyl and Papier as well.   Van Zyl only started  for the first time in the game on Saturday - he was off with an injury for the whole season till then.   I think Mitchell prefers him as starting scrummie - but I see Papier and Van Zyl in the longer term as the test scrummies and said that at the start of the season..   Insofar as Cronje is concerned he was sub-standard in the tests last year and I would prefer a player who can take the step up to test rugby and Cronje failed in that regard - not as badly as Jantjies did, but he still failed.

Y ou accuse me of prejudice in the case of Cronje - but are you not prejudiced against De Allende?          

Mike ... you are a well known fabricator ... a twister of facts. We have seen that over the years with your little tiff against Mozart. You tend to exaggerate things. The good players in your eyes become rugby gods ... and the useless in your eyes become even more so.

Merely look at your latest blindside favourite, Wiese. Totally blown out of proportion. 

I on the other hand am prepared to change my opinion on a player if he produces the necessary goods. De Allende has too many things he needs to work on to make him a viable option as a test 12. He does his thing at the Stormers and I guess that's good enough for them ... but a test 12 requires much more. Look at Nonu and make the comparisons. There isn't any. This one season hot and the next cold doesn't work for me at all. He's unreliable ... has no consistency ... is totally predictable ... and is an easy read. If you've seen one match of his, you've seen em all. It's easy to put a strategy together against him.

I'm glad for you that he ticks all your boxes. He most certainly doesn't tick any of mine.

Van Zyl has started most of the matches with Papier coming on in the second half. He will again tomorrow as is usual. Not sure where you think van Zyl's been injured all season long.

Compare apples with apples, Mike. What has Cronje, Jantjies and Coetzee got to with each other. They play in totally different positions. Try to make a little more sense please.

Are you suggesting we play Jean-Luc at 8? Once again, Mike ... you seem to be confusing yourself ... and me in the process.

I want Ackermann at 8 ... as in EIGHT ... and when Whiteley comes back from injury he should be made to forcibly take the 8 jersey back ... if he can.

Duplication

CC

You picked a very bad example in the case of Nonu.   On 25 July 2015 the two played against each other in a test and De Allende destroyed Nonu in that game.

Although you are not interested in stats I am nonetheless providing the stats iro that game:-

de Allende

0/0

0

0/6/11

46

2

6

0

0

10/2

0/0

0

0/0

Nonu

0/0

0

1/2/4

17

0

2

0

0

4/4

0/0

2

0/0

Hansen apparently agreed what what I wrote above – he replaced Nonu before the end of the first half.

The same happened a few weeks ago when De Allende did the same to SB Williams in the game between the Stormers and the Blues and the latter is regarded as one of the best centers in the world.

De Allende had to years of sub-par performances,  but this year was consistently good in the Super Rugby games he played in and I cannot see where the inconsistently comes in.    

As tio the tests he played in there was one test where he did poorlky in 2015 – in all other tests he played in he was good to excellent – so where does the inconsistency comes in?

Sorry to differ from you Van Zyl was injured and Warren started as scummie in most games and if not Papier started.   Van Zyl's firststarting game in Super Rugby was in the last game the Bulls played.

As to Cronje - sorry - but he is very average as a test scrummie and at times messed up badly - like the try resulting from a poor kick of his in the at homes test last year the AB's won by one point.   Instead of a relieving kick he kicked the ball straight into the hand of the AB full back and the AB;s scored the winning try.  That was typical of his kicking game - mostly poor and representing possession turnovers to opposing teams.

Be it as it may - I cannot see Cronje lasting at test level - so I think that other players will be evaluated as to a longer term scrummie.           

I think you read messages badly - if Whit4ley is not available I would play J-L du Preez at 8 - h e is a much better loosie than Ackerman.   In that case I will play Du Toit at 7 and play Etzebeth and De Jager as locks.  From what I have seen Ackerman is not a test standard loosie yet and he may never be playing club rugby in England..     

De Allende sure looked the goods when he started out. I was a big fan with a bit of concern with his positioning on defence. That should have been fixed by coaching right? Nope. He is still crap...and they've managed to coach his breaks and offloads out of his game. He is doing a bit better this year but would still be a desaster for the boks. We don't have centers. How the fck did that happen?

Draad

Our center situation is not ideal and one has to find the best two of  those to select for the Springbok team.     

For the past six years our defense in the channel  has been poor and I am afraid that it caused problems for the centers as well.   Lambie was the best defender of the lot - all of Pollard, Morne and Jantjies are poor defenders and our loosies were too slow to defend properly.  

Like all others I do have reservations about the centers - but I do not buy in on prejudiced statements on the site,   If members make statements they must be able to substantiate those.  

Mike ... believe it or not ... but there is most certainly life after Kriel and De Allende. They brought us nothing but shame. Enough already.

We have ample talent to take us forward ... so I once again find myself wondering about your inability to see what's right in front of you.

My suggestion, Mike ... open your eyes. It could make the world of a difference to how you see the game in the future ... AND ... we may even see some sensible postings from you for a change .

Wouldn't that be a kick in the head?

CC, an amoeba is also life. There are probably a better pair than Kriel and DdA, but we don't really have obvious world class centers. I liked what I saw from Esterhuizen in his last two matches. Was kinda surprised, as I thought he was a cart horse.

CC

Make some suggestions then of whom should be he centers and why.   I saw what happened throughout  the season and rate accordingly - but you seem to be basing your arguments on your own prejudice.

So lets have the names you suggest and then we can have a logical discussion on whomever you suggest to be in the mix.  

CC

Make some suggestions then of whom should be he centers and why.   I saw what happened throughout  the season and rate accordingly - but you seem to be basing your arguments on your own prejudice.

So lets have the names you suggest and then we can have a logical discussion on whomever you suggest to be in the mix.  

I was hoping that Dan du Plessis would be the answer. He is big enough and fast enough and he's got the right genes. Rugby pedigree as good as it comes, but he's been out injured for a year now. Same as cousin Jean-Luc.