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FORUM / RUGBY /  Two small points from the Cheetahs game

Two small points from the Cheetahs game

Started by Mozart30 REPLIES325 VIEWS· 13 Jul 2014, 00:22
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jul 2014, 00:22
#1
13 Jul 2014, 00:22#1

Anybody else see Tecklenberg toss Lood back like a feather.  I thought this guy is our enforcer.


And is there any poster except Dave and she's za who still thinks Coenie could be a tighthead test success. Van der Merwe dominated him.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Jul 2014, 00:34
#2
13 Jul 2014, 00:34#2
 I read that Coenie was a disaster at scrum time. Time to ditch him until his scrumming improves.All things been equal Tecklenburg will obviously not manhandle the 125 kg Loodt. I take that as a troll post and with a big pinch of salt Dr Moz.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jul 2014, 00:35
#3
13 Jul 2014, 00:35#3
 What was more interesting was to see Coenie battling in the scrums despite having Lood behind him.......
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Jul 2014, 00:39
#4
13 Jul 2014, 00:39#4
 Bwahahahhaha ou dof doos windpomp is becomeing Dr Moz's little echo!

Windpom I have still to watch the tape of the game but please oak dont try and equate wee victor 106 kg to Loodt at 125 kg. Bwahahhahahahaha talk about boneheaded behaviour!
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jul 2014, 00:50
#5
13 Jul 2014, 00:50#5
 Who said anything about Victor? Do you have a phobia or something. You are like ou Maaikie with Morne, Frans and Alberts. He seems to be having constant nightmares about the three of them.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Jul 2014, 00:52
#6
13 Jul 2014, 00:52#6
Oh so wee matfiled scrumming behind the loosehaed has not come up for debate.Man what a dof doos ou windpomp is! Bh ahahahahhahaha
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jul 2014, 01:05
#7
13 Jul 2014, 01:05#7
 I checked twice now and I am 100% that I was not the first one to mention Victor. I was just wondering why Coenie was  suffering in the scrums despite having a 125 kg youngster behind him in the scrums.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jul 2014, 02:12
#8
13 Jul 2014, 02:12#8
Lood was handled with ease today...there was little evidence of an enforcer lock. Is this guy the real deal...I am still not convinced. Coenie needs to find another profession and preserve his health. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jul 2014, 04:16
#9
13 Jul 2014, 04:16#9
 Mozart
You are right about one thing - Oosthuizen sxrumming has worried me for a long time now and I have for instance never really supported his selection as a prop.  I have stuck with Malherbe and  Du Plessis - mos of the time - even though the latter is erratic and a penalty machine at times.
Your hatred of De Jager is getting the better of you - and that is a fact.  During the game De Jager was praised for his strong ball carries and the fact that he prouides the Cheetahs with going forward balls.  If handling with ease in your distorted mind  means that as a rule it takes only three players to bring him down every time he carries a ball - than sure he was handled with ease.  
 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jul 2014, 07:02
#10
13 Jul 2014, 07:02#10
Lots of hype, granted. I don't hate this chap....but nor do I really rate him. Time will tell. He was bog ordinary and quite lazy today.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jul 2014, 11:41
#11
13 Jul 2014, 11:41#11
 Mozart
The problem is that nobody disputes your ratings of players - and everyone has players they rate and others they do not rate.    However, my personal opinion is that it is better to justify your ratings by positively deal with players you rate and not by  denigrating players you do not rate - especially since the grounds on which you base your denigrating arguments are then disputable.
It also remove the issue of prejudice against some players based on whether they pose a threat to your favourites insofar as Springbok selection is concerned.  Other members then have the right to differ from you on those players and can dispute your assertions or support them.
However, to try and denigrate players - you constantly make assertions without any real base and where you are in fact correct - you spoil your arguments by adding in inappropriate info that actually favour the player you criticize.   
The RC series is cioming up and Meyer will have a hard task ahead of him.   He has tos elect a squad of 30 players and I am pretty sure De Jager will be in the squad.  However, Meyer will have to be very careful and if he selects players  with clear shortcomings he is going to find it a mountain too high to climb.
I agree that Coenie is a dubious squad selection and that he should be replaced.   The question remains which props  should be in the squad and which ones should not be.    I would say the best selection would be Mtawarire and Sarel van der Merwe (of the Lions) at loose head - he was the best loosehead scrummaging prop this year in Super 15.  On the tighthead side to my mind there are really only two candidates - namely Malherbe and Jannie du Plessis    They will have to have another prop in teh squad and that selection is wide open.
The other position I have erious doubts about is the number 13 position.  Pietersen has too many defense deficiencies in that position and I think that Meyer ultimately will go with De Allende in that position - basically in the first instance to see how he goes against Argentina.  
.    .         

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jul 2014, 13:07
#12
13 Jul 2014, 13:07#12
Jaaa ou Maaikie. Do as I say and don't do as I do.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jul 2014, 13:23
#13
13 Jul 2014, 13:23#13
 Ceradyne
Top rugby contribution - that last one of yours.  I can assure you I am not a candidate for  Springbok selection  - so please concentrate on the issue of squad selection if you do not mind.  
Your comments on that issue will be a joke beyond believe - I would like to have a real god laugh about that one.
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
13 Jul 2014, 14:04
#14
13 Jul 2014, 14:04#14
 "The problem is that nobody disputes your ratings of players - and everyone has players they rate and others they do not rate.    However, my personal opinion is that it is better to justify your ratings by positively deal with players you rate and not by  denigrating players you do not rate - especially since the grounds on which you base your denigrating arguments are then disputable."

Awww Mikey, you made me spit my cheerios all over the screen. That was quite a laugh! I'll need a minute to catch my breath @ _x
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
13 Jul 2014, 14:07
#15
13 Jul 2014, 14:07#15
 So we ditch Coenie. Who then do we bring in? And who fits the dynamics. I'm no scrumming expert, but you can't just chop and change players just like that. Various factors like height and other dimensions affect the combinations regardless of the individuals technique, but then who is their that is a technical scrummager? Shall we bring back BJ Botha? Better the devil you know is my advice. I can't see any of the others doing better for the Boks and they certainly don't offer half as much in general play.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jul 2014, 14:49
#16
13 Jul 2014, 14:49#16
 Suin Tzu
There are two requirements for a prop.  The primary one is scrumming - the secondary one to produce the goods outside of the scrum.  
Coeni certainly produce the goods outside of the scrum - but he fails to meet the primary requirement - namely scrumming.   
The only real alternative - and an alternative obviously preferred by Meyer - is to play Malherbe - he is solid in scrumming and is good in the  secondary requirement of performance outside of the scrumming as well.   That is why Meyer started with malherbe  in the first two EOYT matches last year and Coenie was on the bench and only brought into the starting line up  when Malherbe was injured..  
Jannie remains a problem - he sometimes is good enough in scrumming - sometimes bad.  He also play the same way outside of scrumming - a real head ache to say the least.   
  
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
13 Jul 2014, 14:51
#17
13 Jul 2014, 14:51#17
 FYI weasel my last post that regarded Coenie questioned his scrummaging, dick head lying again. 
Lood thrown back? Guess you missed his other big carries where it he took three defenders and still got over the advantage line.
Goosen has picked himself up, one of the few top performers for the Cheetahs yesterday.
Meyer's best option regarding the scrum is to pick the Lion props, Schalk Van Der Merve and Julian Redlinghuys. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jul 2014, 14:52
#18
13 Jul 2014, 14:52#18
 


Edit post clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11706 RE: Two small points from the Cheetahs game
July 13, 2014, 11:23:21  Ceradyne
Top rugby contribution - that last one of yours.  I can assure you I am not a candidate for  Springbok selection  - so please concentrate on the issue of squad selection if you do not mind.  
Your comments on that issue will be a joke beyond believe - I would like to have a real god laugh about that one.



And then you are probably wondering why Sun spit his Cheerios over the screen.

You are accusing Mozart of exactly everything that you do thread after thread after thread. You have actually painted an exact image of yourself in that reply to  Mozart. If we would start listing examples, we would create the longest thread in the history of this board.


CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jul 2014, 15:06
#19
13 Jul 2014, 15:06#19
 Goosen is becoming a disciplinary liability. He has had his  second  yellow card in as many games and he was invisible yesterday.

He shied away from defence again. He did not miss any tackles but he only attempted three. He beat two defenders for his only two runs of the game and managed to gain exactly 5 metres in the process. All he did was mostly pass the ball on to the next players. Nothing came of his so-called creativity. Zip. Niks.

If that was what picking himself up looks like, then I am afraid, I do not want to see him when he has an off-day.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jul 2014, 16:34
#20
13 Jul 2014, 16:34#20

So here's my problem with these player debates, and it's beautifully illustrated on this string.

 

Firstly I havent fully bought into the Lood hype. Not that I'm an atheist on this one....more of an agnostic. Watching him yesterday being comfortably handled by the Lions pack, I just can't see the raw horsepower that will have him succeed at top level. But he played well against two beaten NH packs. So I observe....but because I'm not chanting "Peron , Peron, Peron", I apparently 'hate" the lad.

 

 

Then there is the She's Za rant and this time I'm a weasel. Not that I mind that particularly, heaven knows I have been called worse:

 

"Weasels are bold and aggressive predators. They generally hunt alone, feeding principally on mice, voles, rats, and rabbits, but they also take frogs, birds, and bird eggs"

 

I kind of like that, but substitute a nice bit of salmon for the frog....I never was one who much went for the frog's legs.

 

Still what is the cause of the hissyfit....my claiming She'za is a Coenie supporter. Nope says cheezer I denounced him thrice. Sure. But how many, many posts did he make with Coenie as his pick. And how often wasn't I denounced for saying Coenie can't scrum. Insulted in fact.

 

So these young player groupies see some kid they like hype them to the heavens and lord help you if you don't agree. But then suddenly one day they abandon ship without so much as a by your leave.

 

When you see a youngster with potential next time....look at their weaknesses as well as their strengths. Because in 95% of cases, those flaws contain a fatal flaw that prevents them from being successful in tests.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jul 2014, 17:43
#21
13 Jul 2014, 17:43#21
Mozart 
Just your quote:-
"When you see a youngster with potential next time....look at their weaknesses as well as their strengths. Because in 95% of cases, those flaws contain a fatal flaw that prevents them from being successful in tests."

I agree with what you said here and share your point of view.  That is why I am not sold on the issue of young players - only when real merit comes though I support their selection.
However  will add to that by the following:-

When you see any player - experienced or otherwise - watch out for deficiencies that came into his game and could become serious flaws in tests.  Serious and continuous evaluation could potentially correct negative tendencies - but failure to attend to those can impact badly in the test environment.
I am afraid tre horse has bolted insofar as your attitude as to De Jager is concerned - he is already firmly in the Springbok squad and will remain there despite your rather one-eyed view on the guy.   
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
13 Jul 2014, 20:06
#22
13 Jul 2014, 20:06#22
 Listen weasel, I've supported Coenie because there was no real option otherwise this year, you must also remember that his 2013 season was stellar. Jannie apart from one match this year has been awful and for the past 2 seasons he hasn't dominated a scrum as well as being a yellow card liability. 
Ceradyne, you do realise why Goosen got a yellow card against the Sharks? Kicking a ball away is hardly a discipline problem. What Goosen did against the Lions was cynical but any player in the same position would do it, hence why it get's referred to as a professional foul. If you're calling him indisciplined then you're wrong. His kicking game was on point, kicking for territory and poles.  The two runs he did make were industrious, something the stats don't tell you is that both of those runs he managed to put another player into a bit of space. Defence isn't a priority for a flyhalf, it only becomes an issue if the flyhalf misses his tackles eg Morne Steyn.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jul 2014, 21:01
#23
13 Jul 2014, 21:01#23
 @Shezza. Kicking the ball away is also cynical ou Beesblaas. It is exactly a discipline problem. Do you know which law deals  with "kicking the ball away"? 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jul 2014, 22:27
#24
13 Jul 2014, 22:27#24
His 2013  season was stellar? Gosh, I missed that. 
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
13 Jul 2014, 22:55
#25
13 Jul 2014, 22:55#25
What I class as ill-discipline is illegal tackles and stomping, eye gouging, biting, ball squeezing and other such things of the nature. Kicking the ball away (Goosen's example could have also been classed as clearing the ball as the Cheetahs were on their try line, so nothing cynical about that probably too focused to take notice of the whistle). Grasping at the air with this one Ceradyne, you're the only one who think's he's indisciplined. 
Fantastic response weasel, duck and dive. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jul 2014, 23:00
#26
13 Jul 2014, 23:00#26
Kak man. Do you also  want a link to where the Laws of the Game can be downloaded. That particular law is under Foul play. it is  unsporting behaviour. Being too focused to  take notice of  the whistle is just another load of bullshit and a crap excuse. Glaasen is busy losing the plot and it is getting worse by the game.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
13 Jul 2014, 23:05
#27
13 Jul 2014, 23:05#27
Have you ever played a rugby match? It's never as simple as you make it out to be. You think Goosen* is losing the plot yet you continually support Morne Steyn, logical...
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jul 2014, 23:13
#28
13 Jul 2014, 23:13#28
What a lame come-back..... "Have you ever played a rugby match?". What does that have to do with understanding the laws. Goosen was looking for kak...... twice. He rightfully paid the price. At least he didn't give away three penalties as well again. 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Jul 2014, 23:32
#29
13 Jul 2014, 23:32#29
 Cheaser are you debating rugby with dof doos windpomp!!!  I also doubt windpomp ever played rugby. 
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
13 Jul 2014, 23:37
#30
13 Jul 2014, 23:37#30
 My point regarding my rhetorical question, is that had you played rugby you would know that you often ignore/don't hear the refs whistle because you're focused. Add into that the crowd screaming. 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Jul 2014, 15:38
#31
14 Jul 2014, 15:38#31

Lood had another huge game and yeah right regarding v/d Merwe dominating Coenie.......that was a classic case of the ref completely cocking up his calls......let me guess, you were able to conclude that it was Coenie who was initiating the inward scrumming when it was clear for all the see that the inwards scrumming by both props was simultaneous.......but best of all was the ref confirming what an idiot he was by penalising v/d Merwe for scrumming inwards after Coenie was replaced.

 

 

That poor ref just confirmed his ignorance with that call against v/d Merwe.......or let me guess, maybe he, like you think that Coenie's replacement dominated v/d Merwe.......bwhaaahaaaaa

 

 

Geez you lot cannot even pick up the basics of the game

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