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Uh-oh Hot off the press....

Started by Denny38 REPLIES718 VIEWS· 21 Nov 2016, 12:29
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DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
21 Nov 2016, 12:29
#1
21 Nov 2016, 12:29#1
Will Saru turn to White?
Even if Allister Coetzee pulls a whole warren of rabbits out of his hat and scrambles a win at the Millennium Stadium, he will be fired, writes Mike Greenaway. Photo: Siphiwe Sibeko

The silver lining to the thunderous cumulonimbus entrenched over Springbok rugby is that we now have absolute finality on certain issues.

We know with utter certainty that the Springbok management team, en masse, will be sacked after this week’s match against Wales in Cardiff, which will mercifully bring down the curtain on the annus horribilis of this country’s 125-year rugby history.

Even if Allister Coetzee pulls a whole warren of rabbits out of his hat and scrambles a win at the Millennium Stadium, he is going, going gone ...

That much was evident in a statement that came out from Saru president Mark Alexander almost before the corks had been popped on the Franciacorta sparkling wine at the Stadio Artemio Franchi, the home of illustrious soccer team Fiorentina.

In what amounted to a sentence of execution, Alexander said, just an hour after the 20-18 calamity: “The whole of South African rugby is extremely disappointed with this year’s Springbok results and deeply worrying performances. Questions will be asked and we will look at the interventions that need to be taken.”

Who will take over? Who wants it and is Alexander strong enough to stand up to sports minister Fikile Mbalula and tell him to butt out of rugby and let Saru run its own show (notably regarding the appointment of the coach and the coaching staff)?

While an obvious candidate is Lions coach Johan Ackermann, do not be surprised if Jake White makes a dramatic return to the position he was forced to vacate after winning the World Cup in 2007. White’s pedigree and repeated acknowledgement that he wants to coach the Boks again suggest he could be the leading front-runner.

White currently coaches leading French club Montpellier, and has made it clear over the years since he won the World Cup with the Boks (2007) that he wants to again coach at international level.

Ackermann would make a fine Springbok coach, but it is known he wants to continue to hone his skills at provincial level before being a candidate for the international stage. It makes sense.

White is available, he is passionate about the Springboks, he understands the South African rugby scenario better than anybody, he has a ‘rhino hide’, and he would be the perfect ambulance job with the World Cup in Japan in 2019 not that far off.

Of course there will be calls that a return to White would mean a retention of conservative South African rugby, a criticism of White when he was coach of the Sharks in 2014, but the Sharks led the Super Rugby log for most of that year and, let us be honest, SA rugby is in panic mode and fans want wins.

It would be churlish of Saru to not give White the job. He has rescued the Boks before, famously, when in 2004 he built a team from the ruins of the 2003 Rugby World Cup campaign. In 2007 John Smit was holding aloft the Webb Ellis Cup against all expectations.

If anybody can turn Springbok rugby around before the next World Cup, it is White. Yes, he is not an exponent of Barbarians-style rugby, but he gets results!

Who else can? Ackermann? Yes. But he is possibly not ready and why ruin what could be a fine future career by rushing him into the job?

Forget about a foreign coach such as Robbie Deans taking the job. For one thing, Saru probably cannot afford him and, secondly, no Kiwi would take a job that is seen as the most difficult of them all.

Do not be surprised when, after Coetzee is fired later this month, White is re-appointed as coach of the Springboks.

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
21 Nov 2016, 12:46
#2
21 Nov 2016, 12:46#2
Jake White may not be the most popular choice, but if it is a toss-up between him and Coetzee....bring on Jake White! Jake white may be conservative, but he at least had the vision to bring somebody like Eddie Jones in to help in an area of the game where he was lacking. As I have mentioned, Deans is not an option, he is out in the wilderness for a reason. 
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
21 Nov 2016, 15:10
#3
21 Nov 2016, 15:10#3
I don't think it's a stretch to say that SARU's main priority is transformation, not winning or honoring the pride of the Bok brand. Until the fans start voting with their absence and hit the entire system where it hurts - in the financial solar plexus - little is going to change. I don't think that any international coach will want to touch the politically manipulated environment that a Springbok coach has to function in. 
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
21 Nov 2016, 16:01
#4
21 Nov 2016, 16:01#4
 Geez louise when  fans of the old enemy like me hope you guys get better things are at an all time low .Hope the new coach puts some pride back into the jersey ,high morale ,unit cohesion ,leadership and pride in the uniform can make up for many deficiencies .Even those evil arseholes in the SS when forced to press unwilling men into their units found that being part of an elite unit made even crappy materiale perform wonders.
MO
MO(NH)Club Pro426 posts
21 Nov 2016, 16:07
#5
21 Nov 2016, 16:07#5
 I am not loving the idea of Jake taking (if asked) the Bok Job. If a coach picks his squad for a game on the Saturday in London and Saturday morning his team sheet is changed by others and other players put in in their place what is a coach going to do when the fans go mad about the selection of the team?I have been there and seen it done, you may or may not believe this but until the interference stops I think he would be on a fools errand,  but hey I could be wrong.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,262 posts
21 Nov 2016, 16:10
#6
21 Nov 2016, 16:10#6
I agree with Pakie- the primary goal is to make sure that at least 50% of the team is of colour- of which more than 25% have to be black, and less than 50% white.
This is why Meyer stepped down. 
There Hoskins made it clear that whoever comes in as new coach will have transformation as his most important task, with SARU aiming for the Springbok team to be made up of 50% black players by 2019.
"Whoever wants to apply for the job needs to know that transformation is going to be on top of his agenda, or else he shouldn’t apply," Hoskins emphasised.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Nov 2016, 16:16
#7
21 Nov 2016, 16:16#7
 My guess is new sponsorshio money will not be flowing after the debacle this year....that's a form of voting with the feet. Appointing White is remarkably obvious. He was a young man when we won the WC and has improved every team he has coached since then.
MO
MO(NH)Club Pro426 posts
21 Nov 2016, 16:19
#8
21 Nov 2016, 16:19#8
 Well I for one hope he gives it a very wide birth.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Nov 2016, 20:02
#9
21 Nov 2016, 20:02#9
 Mozart
If White is appointed will he not continue with the game plan his pupil Coetzee tried and failed with.   Remember he was fired by the Sharks for very good reason and his contract with Montpellier is not being renewed for basically the same reasons.    
 
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
21 Nov 2016, 20:34
#10
21 Nov 2016, 20:34#10
 I think that Jake is the man for the Job, we simply don't have the time or luxury, nor do we have the players within the country to be trying out new coaches. Jake has been there before. I don't like the style his team plays, but he gets a result with average players. He know what he can get out of them and would be way smarter than what he was 10 years ago. 
He can get us back to the top 3 and hopefully do the ground work for the next coach. 
Here is my list what I think Saru should do
  1. Get Jake in and let him choose his coaches
  2. Bring back competition in the squad, stop relying on past glories
  3. Create a panel and policies to regulate all super rugby coaches and assistants
  4. Start the process for centralise contracts for all Super rugby teams. The kings players are already centralise and the Stormers has gone bankrupt. NZ takes gives $260mil from the $280mill broadcast deal over 3 years to the players association for wages. With the weak Rand, we should be able to offer our players a really good quality of living
  5. Team salary caps at Super Rugby and Currie Cup
  6. Minimise professional currie cup teams and make the 1st devision semi-pro
  7. Incentivise players for springbok camps and tours
  8. Allow unions to pay players for their image rights for advertising with business

Wha't I'm saying is that we should have full control over our professional players and make sure that the coaches come together and give all our best players the best chance to develop and not sit on the bench just because the money is better.
The bulls had 22 springboks at one stage. How is that possible? 
We should be able to play players in position and like New Zealand in the final when they ran out flyhalfs, they didn't retreat a full back or winger or even centre to play fly half but went back to Luke Donald, who by the way was fishing and got him to play in the final.
It worked because he was part of the system and it was easy for him to slot in. 
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
21 Nov 2016, 20:43
#11
21 Nov 2016, 20:43#11
Forgot to say that all players would be based local and no more picking players from abroad. Once you gone, you're gone
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Nov 2016, 21:13
#12
21 Nov 2016, 21:13#12
 Nice post Corn....best an.alysis of the coaching/ selection situation I have read yet.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
21 Nov 2016, 23:53
#13
21 Nov 2016, 23:53#13
 KingCorn is certainly right on selecting only local players ,the ABs have made some tough decisions but overall it has worked well for them.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Nov 2016, 06:31
#14
22 Nov 2016, 06:31#14
 Well ... the English appointed an interim coach, a caretaker so to speak after the fiasco in New Zealand.
They thought it best to look after the squad until a more permanent appointment was decided upon. 
I think that that would be the way to go. Fire the quota and his misfits and bring Jake in as a caretaker. Put him on probation with the hopes of appointing him permanently ... based on his performance. 
It'll give us a little time to screen top international candidates and make comparisons with the caretaker
Like him or not ... he is streets ahead of the current fool and we need someone to take care of the boys properly ... unlike last year where everything was left till further notice.




 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Nov 2016, 08:03
#15
22 Nov 2016, 08:03#15
 I am not sure at all about White - especially bearing in mind his recent history.  
He went to the Brumbies and did well - but he had a very good backline coach in Larkham.   Like in 2007 he had to get backline coaching support - his one poor part of his coaching. 
He wanted the Aussie coaching job and when that did not materialize - he broke his contract with the Brumbies.
He then went to the Sharks and had no real backline support coach and stuck everything on Fat Fransie.   He was terminated at the Sharks because of his style of play representing 10 man rugby - a very limited approach.   The players refused to renew their contracts with the Sharks because of Jake  White and that is a major problem as well.  
His next real venture is Montpellier where his contract is also not being renewed because of the same problems he had at the Sharks, 
Maybe they should get White - but make sure he has a top backline coach and force him to listen to that coach like he did in the case of Larkham.     However - White and Coetzee basically have the same game plan - and I am not convinced he will be able to be much better than Coetzee was with the very limited game plan he espouses.     
   
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Nov 2016, 08:25
#16
22 Nov 2016, 08:25#16
 He's not a favourite of mine either, Mike. I don't like his arrogance and the limitations he brings to a side.  
Hopefully the nightmare with Coetzee is now a thing of the past. If that be the case then I would much prefer that an interim coach be put in place immediately. We cannot afford to let the team just drift aimlessly along without leadership.
The question is ... who?
They should have put a plan of action in place 3 months back. We all foresaw the struggling quota coach leaving us in a desperate situation by years end. 
Guys like Plum should have already been approached. 
I guess that's a little too much to ask from these buffoons. 






WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
22 Nov 2016, 14:27
#17
22 Nov 2016, 14:27#17
 So if a Kiwi coa ch were to put his hand up how would you chaps react ? Would the average Bok fan be amenable ? Your players are much like ours in their respect for the coach unlike your Aussie player who thinks he should have to argue the toss at all times.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Nov 2016, 14:45
#18
22 Nov 2016, 14:45#18
Give the job to Ackerman and Swys de Bruin.......last thing we want is Jake White with his conservative brand of rugby......he has bored Montpellier fans to death......with his Coetzee/Meyer style of play......bash it up and kick for territory  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Nov 2016, 16:38
#19
22 Nov 2016, 16:38#19
After flopping with the A side....nope. The Lions are Leicester City, an accident. That was totally clear from the CC for starters. White is the only candidate with gravitas.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Nov 2016, 17:38
#20
22 Nov 2016, 17:38#20
 And with a hopelessly out of date game plan that nobody else bar Coetzee is still using? 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Nov 2016, 18:18
#21
22 Nov 2016, 18:18#21
 Nope England, Ireland and Italy are all playing Jake rugby. In fact Eddie was so compatible with Jake's vision he chose him to help the Boks in RWC07. It was painful watching Ireland beat the All Blacks playing the style we pioneered and then watching the clueless Boks lose to Italy trying to play what they think is AB rugby.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Nov 2016, 19:29
#22
22 Nov 2016, 19:29#22

Oh wow he flopped with the A side did he.....bwhaaahaaaaa........a side he had no say in the selection of and which actually played a great brand of rugby but were sold hopelessly short by the utterly useless April at 10.


Not to mention only having the side a few days before the game


England and Ireland play the Jake style do they......maybe 5 years ago yes


Ackerman is the man, his record with the Lions proves that - twice the coach Joke ever was



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Nov 2016, 19:59
#23
22 Nov 2016, 19:59#23
 Mozart
Did you actually watch the England - Springbok match?   I cannot see how you can say that England and Ireland played Jake-ball and neither does any other team.
White's contract with Montpellier was not extended because he played his own dated unique  game plan - with limited potential to produce positive results in the final stages of series,    This may have worked 10  years ago - nobody else uses it anymore. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Nov 2016, 19:59
#24
22 Nov 2016, 19:59#24
 Mozart
Did you actually watch the England - Springbok match?   I cannot see how you can say that England and Ireland played Jake-ball and neither does any other team.
White's contract with Montpellier was not extended because he played his own dated unique  game plan - with limited potential to produce positive results in the final stages of series,    This may have worked 10  years ago - nobody else uses it anymore. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Nov 2016, 21:29
#25
22 Nov 2016, 21:29#25
Jake never played Jake ball. Second most tries at RWC 07....4 of the 13 top try scorers were Boks. Second best try scored vs try conceded ratio in the Super 15. Beat the Bulls at home in the playoffs, narrowly lost the finals away to the Chiefs. Coached the Brumbies to a win over the British Lions. The obvious choice to bring back the Boks.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Nov 2016, 22:36
#26
22 Nov 2016, 22:36#26
 Remember in 2007 White brought in Eddy Jones - that was why - and I was there  and saw the matches they scored tries.   And his backline coach at the Brumbes was Larkham.   Remember.
Still his coaching at the Sharks and Montpellier - with poor backline coaches and players meant Jake-ball was played.   That was the main reason for his effective firing by both.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Nov 2016, 22:48
#27
22 Nov 2016, 22:48#27
When he was with the Sharks and had the 4th best try scored/conceded differential in the Super competition and the best in the South African conference? When they beat the Highlanders in the Quarters scoring 3 tries.....none in the semi, but in that hame Frans was replaced at 10 by Lambie. Get real man comparing Jake to other RSA coaches is comparing a legend with pygmies.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
23 Nov 2016, 06:35
#28
23 Nov 2016, 06:35#28
 Ackerman is the man, his record with the Lions proves that - twice the coach Joke ever was
Really?? You can't be serious. There is no comparison.
Look, I have no problem with the option of Ackerman and Swys being national coaches but I think it wise for Ackerman to stay with the Lions until the next cycle.
The Bok job is the toughest and hardest in the business and the same people who shriek Ackerman right now will be baying for his blood when the wheels fall off. It took Ackerman a while to get the Lions to be a force.......Bok fans aren't renown for their patience.
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
23 Nov 2016, 07:05
#29
23 Nov 2016, 07:05#29
As long as the ANC persists with their transformation policy no top class coach will be able to rescue the Goats at this stage.
So I suggest that the SARU continues with signing up these so called coaches from the Cape Town area to coach the Goats while the top coaches stay with the Super Rugby teams.
Pity but politics and sport never ever go together.
  
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
23 Nov 2016, 14:54
#30
23 Nov 2016, 14:54#30
 That's pretty damn original, Arthur...... anything new you'd like the board to know Hmmmm?
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
23 Nov 2016, 23:00
#31
23 Nov 2016, 23:00#31
I see everyone reason for not wanting Jake, but also remember that Alistair was forced onto jake. He was smart enough to bring Eddie in when it counted. We had the best defence in the world. Hopefully Jake won't put up with the politics and know how to put them in place
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
23 Nov 2016, 23:39
#32
23 Nov 2016, 23:39#32
 Our options are limited to the extreme and TBH Jake's pattern of play won't be to everyone's taste but the point is that he will get the results others won't. He is smart enough to cut his material to the cloth in hand and won't shoot himself in the foot playing dreamy type rugby.
MO
MO(NH)Club Pro426 posts
24 Nov 2016, 00:08
#33
24 Nov 2016, 00:08#33
 If the players at the Sharks refused to renew their contracts because of Jake it seems strange that some decided to go play with him in France.IMO the problem at Montpellier is more to do with all the SA players in the squad. Montpellier is more a football town than rugby however, the fans were very upset with their local players being replaced with South African players.I can understand in a way how they feel but remember with their own players they were in dire straights. Bringing in SA players did a lot for them last season.It will be interesting to see how things go when they have a new coach.I still hope Jake does not take the position of Springbok Coach (if asked to do so) a coach should be able to pick his side without interference from above, now this did not happen for him last time and I cannot see that it would be any different this time.I also cannot see any overseas coach putting up with this situation.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
24 Nov 2016, 00:22
#34
24 Nov 2016, 00:22#34
 Mo
As a favour, can you ask Jake if he'll stick with his previous pattern of play or would he accept that the game has changed with the emphasis on scoring tries without sacrificing the structures of defense and set play?
MO
MO(NH)Club Pro426 posts
24 Nov 2016, 00:44
#35
24 Nov 2016, 00:44#35
 Hi Denny,To be honest with you even if I did ask him I don't think he would tell me, who knows what he would do. I would imagin it's all about results with Jake so would have to wait and see.If the subject ever comes up I will ask......
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
24 Nov 2016, 00:52
#36
24 Nov 2016, 00:52#36
 Thanks
Going by the opinions expressed it's a major issue and to be fair it's an issue that's divided opinions about Jake and his pattern of play. It's also fair to say that he's had mixed results with that pattern although I must add it's been more positive than negative.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Nov 2016, 03:59
#37
24 Nov 2016, 03:59#37
 As I read the scenario - there will  just be another talk-shop and Coetzee will stay in place for another year.   Nothing will happen and the White players will be blamed for the disastrous year - the Minister will be the main guy to say the Whites is sabotaging the team because of the reformation system.
It will be nothing new - our corrupt Government is blaming the Whites and the Western Countries for the economic malaise the country is in - so why not transfer the racist  blame game to rugby as well.
After the August elections the ANC has begun a relentless attack on Whites as undermining the country - they are playing the racist drum to draw away attention from their scandals.        
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
24 Nov 2016, 12:10
#38
24 Nov 2016, 12:10#38
 When you talk about sharks players not wanting to renew then look at the players that was dissatisfied. Bismark 30, Jannie, 32, Fat Steyn 29, Paul Jorday 24. So it was no big loss. The other reason for this is that Jake is task master and he expects absolute professionalism. He wanted the guys to show up 8 and leave at 5. None of this 2 hour training on the pitch and then buggering off to do what ever you wanted. Go play golf etc. 
The same is true of some of the professional players in France. They only do the bare minimum.
Take a look at Saracens, they have instilled the same work ethic as Jake. Players stay on after training to work on individual skills. No wonder England is benefiting from the Saracens players. They have unskilled themselves. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Nov 2016, 13:42
#39
24 Nov 2016, 13:42#39
 KC
I know there was an article written by Keo to stop the criticism of White in the case of the Sharks - but I doubt whether that was the real story.   It was in fact denied by the Sharks afterwards and I think most unions have at least a 7 hours per day training programme.
And there was no confirmation that the above players you mentioned were the only dissatisfied players.   Matter of fact the contracts of 14 players were up for renewal and none of those were prepared to renew their contracts while White was the coach.   Willem Alberts was one of the players who departed - but in his case it was because the Sharks did not offer him a contract.  
Fat Fransie was never on contract of the Sharks - he had a SARU contract and allocated to the Sharks - but due to his poor performances that contract was not renewed when it ended in 2014.   He went to Japan and when the Japanese season was over he returned to play for the Sharks in 2015 - but not on a multi-year contract.   The Sharks were not prepared to offer him a contract - he was White's favourite and caused massive problems in the team while he and White were around.  
  


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