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Unknowns to be cleared up on the YE Tour

Started by Mozart18 REPLIES476 VIEWS· 30 Oct 2014, 02:45
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Oct 2014, 02:45
#1
30 Oct 2014, 02:45#1

Despite a really successful 12 months since the last YE tour there are many issues still to be resolved before the RWC, presumably issues to be explored  in the next four tests.


1) Is Hendricks solid enough defensively.  He is superb on attack, but was monstered by Savea. If the answer is no, is JP still quick enough


2) Who is our outside centre...can de Allende get the mental aspects of 13 play...can Steppie defend 13 channel without switching with Jean. Is he fast enough a question that needs answering  after the Conrad Smith and AC  incidents.


3) Can Jean get back to his top form and provide his 2013 spark.


4) Will Pollard be as comfortable in wet conditions, can Lambie play a whole test and control the game vs a 10 minute cameo.


5) Can  Hougaard and Reinach deal with wet conditions....can they be effective if the game becomes tight. Is Reinach a good enough decision maker to play at test level.


6) Who is our WC starting hooker.


7) Are Nyakane and Redelinghuys  qualified subs. Where is Jannie after the Bargie embarrassment, but much stronger performance against Oz/ NZ


8) Does Victor still have it up north. Can Etzebeth step up after the RC.


9) Can Coetzee up his fetching capability, so we can choose a ball carrier at 7.


10) Is Schalk  a real starter, or more of an impact player.


11) Which of our other loosies can impact at test level. Are Kriel, Coetzee and Vermeulen the likely RWC trio....or can Carr carry his domestic form to test level.


12) Are Mvovo, JJ, Gurthro, Lomp, Coenie  and Goosen still serious considerations or there because HM doesn't want to make the cut yet.



And 13) To me the biggest question, can Willie find a balance in his game, that will suit a RWC final....are teams beginning to read his bag of tricks.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Oct 2014, 06:42
#2
30 Oct 2014, 06:42#2
 Mozart
For a change a very good set of questions and some very pertinent ones.   Some have a more serious impact than others.   
First of all - JJ is not in the squad- so he cannot clear up anything.   Your list of dubious selections (question 12)  should include Morne Steyn and Bakkies Botha.  Both were failures in the recent tests - but may with some luck get a bit of playing time.   So that would require clear thinking as well.   
You should add to question 8 whether Matfield can continue with his lack of grunt and contribution to the Tight 5 functioning,  causing problems for his lock partner and other Tight 5 players.
 Question 7 should have a caveat insofar as Jannie is concerned - to include a question as to his ability to continue scrumming satisfactory after the initial 20 minutes in each game he played in.    He does well enough in the first three or four scrums and thn caves in - hence the caveat.       
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Oct 2014, 06:58
#3
30 Oct 2014, 06:58#3
Reasonable questions Oupa, although I doubt we expect the same answers. But still I would never argue against asking tough questions.
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
30 Oct 2014, 07:12
#4
30 Oct 2014, 07:12#4
All good questions. I'm also curious to see how any of the new guys who may get game time adjusts to the test arena.

If Reinach is going to be a permanent member of the squad, he needs to play a full game on this tour. We know nothing about him as a potential test scrummie yet, except that he can cover 50m of open ground pretty quickly. He didn't impress me with his time on the field in the Ellis Park test, he looked indecisive.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
30 Oct 2014, 07:39
#5
30 Oct 2014, 07:39#5

To be fair I think there are a lot of questions that can be asked, primarily for me are the questions in regards to the "old guard"


What role do Meyer see each of these older players play in the greater scheme of things.


In particular which of these senior players are injury cover and which does Meyer see will play an integral part of the starting line up.


1. Gurthro

3. Jannie du PLessis

4. Bakkies Botha

5. Victor Matfield

9. Fourie du Preez and Ruan Pienaar

10. Morne Steyn

12. Jean de Villiers

13. Jaque Fourie


Are they all going to be part of the RWC or are they temporary substitutions?


I personally can't believe that Gurthro Steenkamp will be one of our loose head props, I hope that the youngsters at tight head can convince Meyer Jannie is at the end of his career, I just don't think Bakkies and Victor should stay till the world cup, we have enough young locks and injury permitting they should be selected.


As for Fourie du Preez and Ruan Pienaar I really believe they and Morne Steyn is holding back our evolution.


I think jean de Villiers will be there come hell or high water.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
30 Oct 2014, 07:54
#6
30 Oct 2014, 07:54#6
 Meyer has lost a lot of time by not giving younger guys a shot.He has hung on too long with older players as front line Bok. To have all these uncertainties at this point in time shows that he has been faffing about in many cases.
The questions are valid. 

 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Oct 2014, 08:02
#7
30 Oct 2014, 08:02#7
 Pakie
I tried to find some statistical prove about Reinach's inadequacies as stated by you in the AB test - but for some reason or another there is no data on ESPN on the issue of Reinachand Pietersen  about their performances..
Incidentally he beat three tackles at the end of the run of 50 meters near the end of th run and was mainly responsible for the subsequent try scored by the Springboks.   His timing of the pass to Lambie when the latter scored his try was one of the best "pass timing" incidents I have seen for years.    
I did not notice any "looking indecisive"  in the 13 minutes he was on the field of play - against the All Blacks so can you please provide further information supporting your impression .      
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
30 Oct 2014, 08:26
#8
30 Oct 2014, 08:26#8

CleverMike, I can help you out.



South Africa vs Australia Newlands


Cobus Reinach

62 meters

1 carry

1 defender beaten

1 clean break

4 passes

1 try assist


JP PIetersen

29 meters carried

10 carries

2 defenders beaten

1 pass

1 offload

3 completed tackles

1 penalty conceded


South Africa vs New Zealand Ellispark.


Cobus Reinach

15 meters

3 carries

1 defender beaten

1 clean break

17 passes

1 tackle

2 kicks


JP Pietersen

17 meters

1 carry

1 clean break

1 pass

3 completed tackles

1 missed tackle

1 penalty conceded 

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
30 Oct 2014, 09:04
#9
30 Oct 2014, 09:04#9
Mike, Reinach beat one attempted tackle in his run against Australia. I'm not saying that to discredit his effort, just want to keep the facts straight.

How will stats reveal indecisiveness? You'll need to look at his time on the field. I can't remember everything, it was my impression at the time. I didn't get the impression that he was comfortable. I won't make too much of it because it was a high pressure situation for a guy who had as little game time as he had had up to then.

What was special about the timing of the pass to Lambie? It didn't put Lambie at any sort of advantage, he had to step and create space himself.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
30 Oct 2014, 09:32
#10
30 Oct 2014, 09:32#10
Nice post Moz! All good question. Heard an interview with Heyneke Meyer this morning and it sounds like some of the guys in the squad are just there to learn the structures and team culture, more than to actually have a real prospect of game time. I also noted that Goosen is still highly rated by Meyer, and seems to be in his plans for the EOY tour. 
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
30 Oct 2014, 09:32
#11
30 Oct 2014, 09:32#11
Nice post Moz! All good questions . Heard an interview with Heyneke Meyer this morning and it sounds like some of the guys in the squad are just there to learn the structures and team culture, more than to actually have a real prospect of game time. I also noted that Goosen is still highly rated by Meyer, and seems to be in his plans for the EOY tour. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Oct 2014, 10:33
#12
30 Oct 2014, 10:33#12
 Pakie
With respect - I still cannot trace anything about indecision in the All Blacks game.   It was not my impression at all - he did provide a quick and accurate service to the backline so I missed the indecision story completely.
Insafar as the Aussie run is concerned - he beat two defenders and was tackled by the third defender.    The pass to Lambie I referred to was excellent inasmuch as Reinach held it up for just long enough to create uncertainty in the minds of defenders and the one defender was flat-footed as a result - the pass  did cause a bit of space for Lambie and enabled him to beat the first defender.  That is why he was credited with a try assist in that game.   
    
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
30 Oct 2014, 10:43
#13
30 Oct 2014, 10:43#13

 Bluebok, I read that article as well, and maybe, just maybe having Willie le Roux and Goosen as full backs is not a bad idea at all.


The truth is if Pollard is the flyhalf, and Willie the Fullback, having both Lambie and Goosen on the bench provides you cover for both positions by both players.


Effectively you have three players for flyhalf, and three players for fullback, they cover whichever position could be jeapordised by injury or for tactical changes.



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Oct 2014, 10:44
#14
30 Oct 2014, 10:44#14
 Bluebok
I think that Meyer is looking also at the WC.   He has  to select three flyhalfs  for the WC squad and I think that Goosen would be one of those three.   At least one flyhalfis on the bench to back up the situation if either the flyhalf, full back or even a wing is to be replaced.
The normal situation is thtthe rest of the backline for the WC squad is made up of -
*  three scrummies;*  three centers*  three outside backs and*  one utility player.  
The problem in general is you can never be sure about injuries or the form of players - especially that of the older players.    I think that players gets more injury prone as they get older - and their form takes a dive as times go on.   For instance unlike 2013  De Villiers this year was injured and out of rugby - be it Super 15 or tests - and missed games as a result    His form was not really good enough - but the more serious ssues are with players like Jannie, Bakkies Botha and a few other "geriatrics".      
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
30 Oct 2014, 11:08
#15
30 Oct 2014, 11:08#15
I'll have to look at the game again Mike, I'm going on my impressions watching it live but not sure it's worth the effort.

He only beat one tackle against Aus. He had two defenders in front of him, but only one was in a position to tackle him. When he broke inside he beat one tackler before the retreating cover defenders got him.

I thought the pass left Lambie flatfooted. But I'm not going to split hairs about it, you're welcome to your view.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Oct 2014, 11:09
#16
30 Oct 2014, 11:09#16
 
1. No. Hendricks needs a lot of work. He should be dropped and replaced by one who has a better overall game. JP is past it. Shouldn't be part of Bok rugby any longer.

2. Serfontein - definitely the answer at 13. Shown himself to be solid on defense and has a high work rate. De Allende is a 12. Leave him there.Too slow for wing.

3. Yes - Jean needs to be managed properly. He's a brilliant player. Stupid question.

4. Another stupid question.

5. Another stupid question. All cause you favour the useless Pienaar.

6. Doesn't matter. Prefer Bismarck.

7. No to Nyakane ... Redelinghuys should start at 3. Replace useless Jannie permanently. Jannie should retire.

8. Victor is still the best 5 lock we have. Superb fitness levels. Awaiting the return of Bekker and PSDT. Etzebeth is the best 4 lock on the planet.

9. No ... 6 doesn't come naturally to Coetzee. Kriel is vastly superior. Should select a traditional 7 irrespective and not make selections around Coetzee.

10. Schalk hasn't had a lot of game time. Fitness levels need to be looked at. Brilliant off the bench these last few tests. Keep him there for now.

11. Coetzee isn't a favourite of mine. Prefer Vermeulen, Alberts and Kriel. Would also bring Brussow a little closer. Whiteley.

12. Another stupid question. They should all be dropped.

13. Willie needs to compete against someone for the 15 jersey. He's complacent. Not sure why Kolbe's not in the mix.   





 


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Oct 2014, 14:31
#17
30 Oct 2014, 14:31#17
 CC
There are two answers where I disagree with your comments - namely on Matfield and the issue of F at and low work rate Alberts.   The latter has flopped in t he Ellis Park test - seriously flopped.   His defense In Super 15 has been putrid - just watch the Highlanders game  where Treeby - a back line player pushed him out of the way and he landed on his backside.   You need a loosie at 7 that can at least pass and catch a ball - Alberts cannot and if he was any good at ball protection and recovery - things would  be much better - but he cannot do that either. 
Matfield looks good standing away fom mauls and tackling the opposing players coming through.   Not the hard grind for that one.   He weakened our Tight 5 and he messed up line -outs towards the end of games - which caused serious problems for us.   For me he has almist as many question marks as Fat Alberts  has .         
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Oct 2014, 14:41
#18
30 Oct 2014, 14:41#18
Actually I'm not confident about Coetzee either. I prefer Louw......Louw, Alberts and Vermeulen were dominant up north last year. Coetzee is very energetic, but not effective on the deck. Unfortunately Alberts seems to be struggling with a succession of injuries. And Louw's injury is very concerning....like Schalk's in   a way. I can't see how a guy comes back from a neck injury....drops his head over the ball and fetches.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Oct 2014, 15:57
#19
30 Oct 2014, 15:57#19

Willie should be left alone to do his thing, the fact that some question our best attacking talent is laughable. We need to work on a back-up. The idea that Goosen could be the answer speaks volumes for Meyer as a coach - its pathetic. The best young talent at 15 is Baby Bok star Jessie Kriel. A proactive coach would have observed this very fact and included him in the squad. Taute as a utility player should have also featured.

 

Hendricks is a one season wonder, nice finisher but cant defend. My guess is that he will struggle in his second year in the 15 man game. I am not convinced about him at all. Also lacks out and out pace.

 

JP still has plenty to offer, but never really set the world alight in 2014......playing him at 13 never helped. Does Habana still have what it takes. I think he might have one last WC in him and then that's it.

 

Great to see Senatla in the squad, lets hope he gets game time, he is far far better than Hendricks. Other options at wing should have been Sithole, Kobus v/Wyk, Kolbe or Rhule. I see little point in Mvovo now, given his age.

 

Jean has been average all year but Meyer will hang onto him till the bitter end, to the detriment of Bok rugby. He misses too many tackles these days and his only option these days on attack is the crash ball.

 

The best young 12 in the game in Serfontein is being wasted at 13. Sadly had Fourie not been injured, he too would have made the tour squad. de Allende has been pathetically treated by Meyer, his debut was in atrocious conditions and he was given one more opportunity thereafter. This considering he was playing in the unfamiliar position of 13, the position he should be playing in but given time to settle. The centre pair all RC should have been Serfontein at 12 with de Allende at 13. JJ is another who has been pathetically treated by Meyer after his ground breaking performance with ball in hand against NZ. He is the one centre we have with real pace and good feet that finds himself sitting at home instead of some faith and investment being shown in him. A player in the JJ mould is Kobus v/Wyk.......here is another potential gem being overlooked at 13. Same can be said of Jessie Kriel.

 

Options at 12 as back-ups could have been the impressive Howard Mnisi or the barn storming Andre Esterhuizen as a left field selection. A great coach would also not have let Frans Steyn slip the net for whatever reason.  

 

The recall of Morne is insulting, enough said. The 3 flyhalves should have been Pollard, Goosen and Lambie......at least all 3 are in the squad, despite the ridiculous call on Goosen as a 15.

 

What the hell is passive Pienaar doing back in the squad? Are we going to see more of that mundane kicking from him all series? Hougaard and Reinach are obvious choices. The likes of Groom or v/Zyl would have been far better options that Pienaar.

 

I'm not sure which selection is more insulting, the inclusion of fat Steenkamp or Morne, but how on earth does Steenkamp make the squad ahead of v/d Merwe of the Lions......there is simply no justification for this at all. Its disgraceful and says all you need to know of Meyer as a coach. Hell the inclusion of 19 year old Thomas du Toit would have been a far better choice as would Morne Mellett.

 

Jannie hangs in there thanks to injuries to Marcel v/d Merwe, Malherbe and Kirsten, but no doubt Jannie would have toured anyway. Coenie, Redelinghuys and Nkayane are good calls but hopefully with Coenie being left to specialise in one position.

 

The choice of Coetzee as the 3rd hooker is a strange one, he is a nice player, but I cant help but feel Cooper, Visagie, Ackers and Scara are better.

 

Really sad to see the failed experiment of 37 and 35 year old Bakkies and Matfield continue.....its insulting to think these old fossils actually add value when the RC exposed Matfield for his lack of physicality and how on earth can any coach select has been Bakkies ahead of our new bruiser Paul Willemse.......a travesty of bloody justice. Lood has suffered under Meyer with little faith shown in him. Meyer seems to have a habit of giving young players a start or two then relinquishing them to tackle bag duty.......Lood and de Allende of late. Willemse, Lewies, Kleyn and Jacques du Plessis would all have been better options than geriatrics Bakkies and Matfield.

 

Good to see Kriel get a call up, he deserves it. Coetzee is now the real deal at test level, but Kriel as a back up is spot on given the injury to Kolisi. I think Carr's best position would also be openside and its good to see him rewarded. The selection of Oupa is a strange one, he looks useful enough but certainly does not have the physical impact the likes of Jacques du Plessis, Rhodes or Elstadt would offer. Whitely is a good player but I suspect he is not physical enough for a test standard 8. I am a huge fan of Mtembu's all round skills and would rather have seen him in the squad ahead of say Oupa. Of all the old players recalled or retained, Schalk is the best of them for the simple reason that his game has evolved. He has learnt to look beyond taking contact as the only option. Would I have him in my squad - no, for there are better youngsters about.

 

The Bok squad has shown little progression and Meyer continues to sell Bok rugby short in a big way. We will struggle on this tour under Meyer for we will once again see the kicking game employed in the name of NH conditions. With the likes of pap Matfield, Jannie  and Oupa in the engine room, we will struggle physically against England and Wales in their backyards.

 

 

— END OF THREAD —

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