We apparently can't say Pienaar was crisper than Hougaard

That shows some kind of bias....maybe even a WP bias, compute that! I have been saying for a few weeks Hougaard looks uncomfortable in the straitjacket imposed on him at 9. The Bools and Heyneke expect a very programmed approach from the scrummie. Hougaard is all instinct and flair.....it's not a good fit. And it's apparent in the player's body language.

Today on a couple of occasions he failed to extract the pill leading to a turnover. He also got charged. He is not the player he was on the wing for the Boks. In that role he brimmed with confidence and initiative. He is a fearless tackler, perhaps the best tackler from behind I have seen. He is fast, elusive and strong....a great wing. 

Why is this so hard. Pienaar by contrast, who looks equally clueless at 10, is very fluid at scrummie.....imparting a rythm to the whole team.

We can watch Hougaard in a crisis of confidence in the TN or we play Pienaar at scrummie and Hougaard on the wing....it's simple.

 Moz, I don't think we should sit here and judge and swap players after one performance. 

Ya I agree hiougaard was quite average today, but he'll it's hardly alarm bell stakes. 

Id mich rather give him some time to settle in his role. Remember FDP was our number 1 choice up until Last year....so let's give hougaard some time. There is little doubting his unreal talent and vision, 

Its in our SAFFA nature to be hasty... So let's be a tad patient. 

I agree... After giving him time to settle at 9, of he doesn't cut it, let's THEN ONLY try him elsewhere... On the wing.

Remember too.... Pienaar hasn't been a model of consistency either.

Hougaard was not simply average. He struggled as the team was being dominated at the breakdown. It was similar to how Morné and Lambie were compared last year against Australia. Lambie was hailed as a genius in spite of not being involved with one positive Bok move thoughout the second half. The big difference was how the forwards fronted up in the second 40 that day, and that was the only difference today. England owned the breakdown in the first half, completely haulted our ball and too often Hougaard had to dig or the ball. Not his fault that the forwards didn't do their job. Pienaar benefited from a resurgence in the second half.

Just a note, Pienaar was struggling in that Aussie test too. So much so that he was qually attacked for it as Hougaard is now. This argument against Hougaard is rediculously lacking perspective. I don't have any problem with Pienaar as a 9, in fact I did defend him and his move North when it was fashionable to hate him. The fact though is that Hougaard is not a problem at all at 9. Your half-backs cannot do much if the service is non-existant. Just look at the Aussie QF against the Boks, the stats on Genia and Cooper are terrible. The worst I have actually seen from a half-back pair to this date! Yet, are we questionning Genia's ability as a 9? No, because we all know they got monstered up front. But we talk about the Boks and everyone is too keen to ignore these important details, or in some cases, simply lie.
 
PS: Just finished downloading the game, flicking through random parts to check the quality. At minute 42:13 Hougaard is shoved away by an Englander well offside so he cannot approach the ruck. Not called by the ref.

Mozart

I am a great admirer of Hougaard as a player - but something has gone drastically wrong here.   Before the game I said that Hougaard was poor in his last 5 Super 15 games - and I made the rather sarcastic comment that his performance yesterday would depend on which Hougaard turned up to play.   

Hougaard has the capacity to develop as a scrummy - but in a straitjacket determined by the coaches his natural flair would be killed off.   

I think that Meyer got thoroughly miffed with him and Kirchner yesterday - hence their early replacement.   If he had another option other than Meisiekind - he would have replaced Pietersen as well.

It's simple really, besides Moz and I have been saying it for awhile now, Hougaard is no scrummie and he is being stifled in that position. I've previously said he is not the best scrummie in the world neither is he the best scrummie in the country, the role of best scrummie in the country belongs to Piet Van Zyl, Hougaard should be Habana's back-up. Some on here might foolishly rule him out on size. He's suffered a couple of chargedowns in S15 and it's followed him into the test arena, no team can afford that type of error in a tight game.

Denny

I would play Hougaard at wing - not at scrummy - and said clearly what went wrong with him.   Agree with you about that.   However, we should get rid of the cart horse and rather play Hougaard at wing.

Mike

Glad to see some of us are on the same page...he won't disgrace us on the wing.

 After watching Hougaards performance over the last month, I’m not convinced that he has developed the skills to make him a world class 9 yet. Though he possesses oodles of pace, determination and strength, he is yet to display a complete scrumhalf performance. 

Saturday was a classic example of why he shouldn’t be starting for the boks. He was often to indecisive and impulsive in his decision taking. His control at the base was poor and often got caught. It didn’t help either with an ineffective number 8 that seem to have hands of clay and the strength of a mouse, spies is a complete cluts and lacks the agility to be an 8 that can work of a strong, but also a weak scrum.

I do believe that Hougaard, given the time, can become a world class number 9 in the next couple of years, but he needs time in that position to work on those fine points. Test rugby is not the place where you do that. Contrary to Meyer’s believe that he wants players with mental strength. For me Pienaar is the better choice for 2012. If Hougaar refines his game he will soon be the man for the 9 jumper.

Geez, the insight into Meyer's thinking......................................

Kirchner was not replaced early because he was crap. He was replaced because he picked up a knee injury, and he is indeed doubtful for the next test. In addition, Meyer has always maintained that he has a bench of "impact players" and that each of them would come on primarily to make an impact, but then again, some of us read only the "nice parts" in media statements. has nobody noticed that he did not wait for minute no 60 of the game before suddenly moering all the subs on at once, like we have been getting used to in recent years...................?

I have most unfortunatelky to agree with ou windpomp here and have also to  agree with Flash and King Corn.

Although Hougaard is certainly not the finished article the question has to be can he be and do we want him at scrummie. I love his 4th loose forward role and ability to snipe. He and Goosen would make a great half back pair if Hougard can be sorted out. Let him be for  awhile and see if they can fix the broken stuff.

All he needs to do is get the flow going. Learn to get  a very quick ball away to the line as the NZ scrummie did so often. This has to be coachable, and yes the forwards in the first half did not provide all this

I too am sure that the subs were all, apart from the knee injury to Zane , in due course really. Nobody was subbed for giving a poor performance. The bench was used very well in my view.

 I rate Hougaard highly and if I were the coach of the team he would defenitily be my first choice with Goosen, but both of these players need some refinement and if they can get a chance to improve, SA will be the envy of all the nations and be a massive threat in years to come. 

Beeno1, you hit the nail on the head. Smith and Genia are very similar players, what they are better at are their passing game and quickness from the base of the ruck, look how often they go in and grab the ball, take a few steps back and release fantastic passes, but they also allow time for themselves where Hougaar either stumbles back or try to pass the ball straigh from the ground. 

The SA forwards also need to sort the rucks out, but a scrummie won't always get the ball served on a plate. 

What I really hate is when they start forming that dam human centerpede and shifting the ball back. You basically telegraphing your move and slowing the game and allow for the opposition to set their defensive line. Looks like a kick, lets get some of our players back to help.

Nothing good can come from such a ruck move. I have been saying this for years, the SA forwards really need to be more accurate in their ruck work. Not just donner into the rucks but look after the ball and make sure it doesn't get trapped at the base. 

First of all - let me be quite clear on my views on the Hougaard issue.   I think he is a top player - but not at 9 - unless he can learn to play a better passing role.   He is too much of a player in the true Joost and Fourie style of play.   See the ball lieing in front of the last foot in a maul situation and standing to admire it - while waving his arms and hessitating to pick up the ball and pass it.   It happened at least twice on Saturday that the opposition attacked the maul and pushed the Springboks off the ball - while Hougaard stood looking at the ball.   Was it indecisiveness??????   Some people blame the forwards fpor not protecting the ball - but delays in passing give such opportunities to the opposition and put the forwards under massive pressure for no reason whatsoever.

I believe that he could be coached to play differently - but that cannot wait for years.    Delays in passing to a flyhalf whom himself is not tops in the passing game is a problem neutralizing the whole back line attack opportunity.    I would get a special scrummie coach - a person like Divan Serfontein - to knock some sense into Hougaard and teach him how to perform as a scrummie - not as a recycled wing that is being used as a scrummie in the Joost and Fourie mould.

As far as I am concerned Hougaard has all the physical components that would make him a great scrummie - but time is of the essence.      I think it can be done - but we need an expert to advice him on how to play a faster linking game as well.   If Pienaar could do it - like he did on Saturday - so can Hougaard with proper coaching.

Sorry - I was wrong about the reason for Kirchner's replacement - did not see him going off injured.   Sorry about the injury - but he was not a house on fire anyway.   However, I believe that I am correct about the reason for the replacement of Hougaard - I think Meyer got miffed by the slow passing and other negative elements in Hougaard's play.

Neither Joost, nor Fourie du Preez were recycled wings. Hougaard is not one either. Ask anybody knowledgeable person who the top SA scrummies in modern day rugby was, and I can bet you that both Joost and Fourie would be at the top, every time. I am the first to admit that I was also seriously pissed off when the slow cleaning started again, and when Ruan came on, I specifically watched whether he was going to be quicker than Hougaard, and I did that because I have watched Ruan play over here this year, and I have said on a number of occasions when he was getting bashed on forums that he has improved vastly from the way that he played before he left SA. I was surprised that he also took just as long if not longer than Hougaard at times. In addition, if you watch again, you will note that at times Hougaard also cleaned out very quickly. The thing is though, that many of us sometimes seem to notice and remember the things that irritates the crap out of us.

In my opinion, Houggard was not nearly as crap as I initially, especially after those first few minutes, thought, and there was not that much difference between him  and Ruan in the end, and if you go have a look at the stats as well, you will see that it reflects that. I am sure that Heyneke will mold the two of them in a formidable "package" in time to come. Remember that this is the first time that this combination, and I am talking the entire 22 man squad, has played together, and that they had the absolute minimum time for preparation.

Ceradyne

Sorry if my terminology was wrong - I referred to Hougaard as a reclycled wing - not to Joost or Fourie.   Joost was the real slow time server.   A lady friend of mine once said that she could paint her nails and dry it before Joost would pass a ball.   When the POMS came to tour here - they asked who would be the SA scrummy and they were delighted when they were told it was Joost.   They then know how to handle him.

Joost was a better scrummie than Fourie could ever dream to be.    Joost only problem was time-wasting at the maul.   Otherwise he was a more inventive type of player.     Fourie was a poor scrummy in 2005 - improving to the level of average to good on international level and then started going backwards.   He was like a robot set to go through a number of predetermined moves and that made me hopping mad more than once. This is to be added to my set of needling.

Now - please - read what I said about Hougaard.  I said he has potential - but he needs coaching to stop slow delivery and start thinking positively about variation in play.    I also said the training is urgent.  I think he can make it - but his present technique - or lack of it - is going to ruin him as a player.

hougaards passing game was something i noticed that was an area of concern when he first came onto the scene, but hes improved a lot since then. ive noticed that there are definate areas he can work on, but hougaard is a very smart cookie and always work hard to clear the ball and create opportunities, especially around the fringes of the breakdown where hes always dangerous.

IMO genia is still the worlds best halfback, his ability to quickly sum up the situation is insane, seldom do the wallabies lose when hes in control, no matter who they play. he can do all the fringe attacks that hougaard makes, but genia uses his opponents, ref placements to his advantage, while hougaard makes his own way with speed of the mark and tackle breaking abilities.

but finally All Blacks have aaron smith,  someone who can compete with both genia and hougaard.
IMO a smith has the best passing game in the world from what ive seen, a valuable assest for the ABs style of attack.
there are some saying that this could be coached to help improve hougaards passing game, but the groundwork for smiths passing game began when he was a kid.
smiths father told him if he wanted to be a halfback, he had to learn to pass both left  and right and encouraged his son when he was 9 to do weights to help strengthen his wrists. by the time he reached high school his passing game was something that everyone was talking about but it was here that aaron smith met joggie vilijoen a former Bok halfback who took smith under his wing and helped develop his passing game even more.

theres only so much work that hougaard can do now to reach the level that smith is on in terms of passing, cos smiths routine has been ground into him for over a decade.
i do believe that hougaard will improve in this area a little, but its the other aspects of his game which will see him come right. he just needs a little time to settle and wash away the silhouette of du preez, cos those were some pretty big shoes to fill.