What do we do when JP returns?

It's now obvious that Jean, Habana and JP remain our best backs. They are mature, world class performers. So Willie gets displaced from the wing berth. Options could be flyhalf (bold, very bold), 13 ....not often discussed but an intriguing possibility, or a return to fullback. The latter is probably the most likely but SP Marais looks like a Bok waiting to happen, with a style that is more likely to survive at 15.

Saving Willie is crucial to our new expansive style....nobody else has the vision...so what do you guys think?

Mozart

I have been an admirer of JP from early on and thought he was - together with Habana - the best wings in the world.   However, in Super 15 this year he was not a factor at all.   Matter of fact since his excellent try in the game against England last year- he was seriously defective in try-scoring this year - being virtually the only wing without any tries to his name and any try-assists as well in Super 15.

This could have been he result of the series deficiencies that plagued the Sharks backline this year - but then he should have looked for work more often than he did.

Problem is that Pietersen has a number of very good attributes - he is a very strong runner with ball in hand  and an excellent defender.   On the other hand he is not the fastest wing around and in that respect will most likely not be as effective at full back as he should be.  He was also ineffective when the Sharks tried him at 13 - so he has his limitations as well.

I do not buy into your statement "Jean, Habana and JP remain our best backs. They are mature, world class performers".   The "mature" is meaningless - performance is paramount.   In the case of Jean and Habana - their continued performance makes them world class performers - but there are with the Super 15 this year in mind some question marks as to the performance of Pietersen this year.

In essence I think that Pietersen represents a problem insofar as future selection is concerned.  His speed is to my mind inadequate to make him a really effective full back and his performances in 2013 was inadequate to determine what he would produce on test level.  He will be absent in 2014 from Super 15 and in effect an unknown quantity insofar s selection is concerned.   Selection on reputation of 2012 and earlier is not an option.

Under the circumstances I would suggest selection and putting him on the bench - bring him on after half time in one or two games and thus judge whether he still belongs in the Springbok squad.  Any other line would be a gamble at best.  

Kirchner of course being a huge former favourite of yours Dave. I remember posting after posting I made trying to explain to you he was a lucky packet and couldn't tackle....but you insisted he was the man!

Put him on the bench like they did with Du Preez - especially since he had a poor Super 15 and nobody would know whether he will succeed without question after his return from Japan. 

Reputation is a sick basis for player selection and more often than not it does not work out.   

Saffex

My problem is that I look at games honestly and not with prejudice.   IP did squat in the Super 15 this year - no tries - no try assists - nothing.  He put in some tackles - but that is about all he did.

Class act  he is - but he has not shown it this year.  Play him from the bench to start with - like they did with Du Preez - what is wrong with that?    

Saffex

Balls to say the least - I was the first person on this Board who said Kirchner must be replaced by SP Marais and I stay with that one.  Marais is very much like Willie le Roux - very innovative and effective in what he does. 

My take on JP (2013 Super 15),  Frans (ever since his return from France), Jantjies (a serial flop all the time he played at flyhalf on senior level), Hougaard (since the beginning of the test series last year), Kolisi (not a good enough in Super 15 and  a serious flop at Ellis Park), Alberts (nothing done with a very limited application in respect of 90% of the functions of a loosie) are all 100% honest and near the mark.   Have never really criticized Vermeulen - but he is relatively immobile and I prefer Arno Botha at 8.

Let me go into detail:-

Francois Steyn

Was overweight and unfit since his return from France - showed up in his crashballing and zero contributions in virtually all games he played in since his return.   Seriously defective in speed and missed too many tackles - especially in Super 15.   Has a top reputation but his performances were unacceptable.   Can succeed - but he will have to show some ball sense in future.

Jantjies

Did show some promise in Under 20 - but did not develop in senior rugby.  Seriously deficient in defence - chicken out under high balls when under pressure - make one very good move and bugger up in virtually in all other cases.  Serious FLOP in capital letters in the Soweto test last year.   Was an expensive flop when the Stprmers contracted him.   He is not a test players backside and dubious selection on Super 15 level.

Hougaard

Was dropped by Meyer - because his service to the backline was slow and ineffective.   Kicking game at scrummie last year was a joke in bad taste.   Due to injury was not the frontline scrummie of the Bulls this year.     Unlike Jantjies he has  potential to develop back into form though.

Kolisi

Was an openside loosie with one of the lowest tackle counts ratio's in Super 15.  He had one good test performance this year against weak opposition.  Some ball carries - a very few though - with promising results, but they end up in mauls - since he never pass or off-load balls.  Virtually no break down ball recovery and of no value in line outs.   Very limited performances.   BEE selection obvious.

Alberts

Carry balls very few times and never makes more than 3 meters  over the gain line.   Do not pass or off-load balls.  At times isolate himself in the process - leading to loss of possession.   Low tackle count because he is immobile and slower than our props.   Make some good tackles around the fringes - but far too few - and missed tackles resulting in tries (eg 2 against the Samoans and one on Read) and incapable of defending wider out.    No breakdown ball recovery, clumsy and not successful ever, with virtually no contribution towards line out ball recovery.

Let us be clear - I am not saying leave Pietersen out.   Players from Japan - where they play far fewer games - sometimes become slack.  R ather phase him in, especially since he had a season in Super 15 this year which he himself would rather forget about.   Remember he has to fit into a team with a different playing style to what was the case in the past and without playing in Super 15 - he will be out of contact with his teammates and unaware of what to expect from them.        

 Mike, at a time like this we must remember one phrase: Form is temporary but class is permanent!

JP might not have enjoyed a season like he had in 2007 scoring all those tries but he is 6 years older and still just as good. JP needs to play.

What do we do with Willie?

Keep him on the wing is my choice. He has slightly less pressure than a fullback and can back himself more and get away with it a little more if it does go wrong. He has awesome touches and he needs to be up in the line of play more often than not, popping up at first receiver or in the centres. He has good skills but is not the safest under the high ball. We want a rock at fullback. That is the key. A guy who can move forward under pressure and has the strength to do that if need be.

Willie at 13 would not be the most ridiculous thing ever as he very similar to Ben Smith who is also a damn fine 13 (as the Aussies are about to experience) but he would have to mature as a player a bit more to take on that role. Ben Smith had a blinder season and in some ways, Willie's matched that as he was less experienced than Smith and played in a team that is some distance behind that of the AB's in terms of back play yet he still sparked things and created opportunities and line breaks.

My choice right now is to leave Willie at 14, chuck JP at 15 all super rugby (SP Marais still makes plenty silly little errors. He will mature in time and maybe tour end of year in 2014 if he keeps it up) and if Frans Steyn can get back into the shape and mindset in terms of confidence he was in around 2007 - 2009, we may need to look at him for 13. He is big, strong, skillful and can tackle. A 180 from JJ right now! We will lose a little pace but gain so much more elsewhere. JP has an uncanny ability to beat defenders with his long stride and is so strong in the tackle. He can be a great Fullback if he plays there enough and fine tunes his skills under the high ball's.

In terms of flyhalf, that is anyone's guess right now and I am hoping with this new running game the Boks will hopefully be playing, Lambie can get some confidence back and go back to how he was, not this Morne' clone. One thing is for sure, we need to look past Morne'. He cant and could never tackle well so he cant be there much longer.

9. Du Preez / McCleod

10. Lambie ?? / Goosen?? (I actually dont know)

11. Habana

12. De Villiers / Serfontein

13. Steyn

14. Le Roux

15. Pietersen

The guys seperated by / will be on the bench. Pietersen/De Villiers can cover wing. Steyn/Lambie/Le Roux can cover fullback. Serfontein never to play anywhere but in the centres again.

For example, Le Roux/Habana gets injured, you bring Goosen on, Lambie to fullback and Pietersen to wing.

Pietersen gets injured, Serfontein to centre and Steyn to fullback.

Even having a guy like Boshoff there is not bad. He is going pretty well and can cover outside backs or flyhalf.

If we play Saffex team we need a soccer formation. Have 8 forwards, 2 mid fielders (JJ and Jantjies) and 4 backs(defenders) and 1 goal keeper(fullback) because our mid fielders are not putting up much resistance in defence so we can not rely on 1 line. Once one of them is beaten, its not the other ones job to tackle. Only the inside man can tackle!

boklogic

I think taking account the way Francois Steyn played in France - as well as after his return to SA - is that he would take the sting out of any backline attack of the Springboks.   He is too slow for a 13 and also is a traditional crashballer - we shall see what happen on Saturday.

Francois Steyn over the past year rarely passed a ball - he crashballed continuously.   .   In four games he played this year in Super 15 - he passed the ball 11 times in total and unsuccessfully crashballed 80% of the  balls he received - taking the sting out of the Sharks backline.   That more than anything else caused Plumtree to lose his patience with him.   In any event - that type of thing kills backline attacking moves and is in fact counter-productive.

We will see if that tendency is still in evidence coming Saturday - if it is, he should not be anywhere near the Springbok team.

boklogic

I know the Phase :

"Form is temporary but class is permanent"

It is appropriate often enough - but is also one of the most abused phrases in sporting history.   The key component is that there are other factors as well - basically relating to physical ability and age.   The abuse of the phrase is when it is used to justify retention of sportsmen after continuous under-performance over a lengthy period of time.

Because of the abuse - I tend to look more at performance than anything else.  That is hopefully not the case with Pietersen - whom I always held in high regard as a wing.  I read now that Pietersen has made himself available for the EOYT and to my mind he should be in the squad.   Whether he would with no playing time in SA before the test and no experience in playing in the present backline - connect well enough with the other backline players he will play with for the first time - and ere I believe Engelbrecht, Le Roux and potentially Marais may be the case?   I would insist that he gets playing time - and would start with him from the bench first game - and thus phase him into the starting line-up, same as the case was with Du Preez.

The nasty person in me thinks that Pietersen - who never intended to play for SA in the EPYT -  is realising that Le Roux has become a serious challenger for his position on the wing and now wants to avoid him being cementing that position as his own - that is he detected a threat to his future selection in the team and consequently is rushing back to ensure that threat is averted.

 Form is temporary, class is permanent!

Class: Dan Carter, Brian O' Driscoll, Jean De Villiers, Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Os Du Randt, Johnny Wilkinson, Percy Montgomery, Bryan Habana, Rob Kearney, Mils Muliaina....

All class players that have been out of form or out of favour at some stage in their careers but have always bounced back and shown their worth and what they bring to a team.

Form: Way too many to mention. Guys that have burst onto the scene for a season or two then faded. Jantjies being a massive one. Wynand Olivier, JP Nel, Bjorn Basson, Odwa Ndungane, Lwazi Mvovo...List just goes on!!!

That phrase rings true everytime. Some guys are just not built or wired up to play test rugby. I think that is a point Moz tries to get across a lot when guys bang on about choosing youngsters in a little bit of form for their unions in a much lesser comp like Currie Cup to displace current Boks that have been in the system for years.

It doesn't work like that. You choose a team full of Currie Cup in-formers and pit them against the current Boks in a test match atmosphere (if you can replicate one) and I guarantee that current Boks side wins every time. Guys like JP and Frans have so much test experience that you can not buy or afford to throw away.

These guys have got to the top once and made a big mark. They will get there again. Dont doubt it. They know what it takes to get there and more importantly, they know what it takes to stay there. Yes, Frans is out of form and thats the reason for the change in his game. He needs conditioning and once he has that and feels good in himself, he will gain the confidence again. These guys are not your Visser's, Boshoff's, Marais'...They are tried and trusted Boks.

I can see exactly what Moz means. Not every guy is a test player because he looks good on the super rugby stage ala Wynand Olivier! Look what happened to him. Its a different environment altogether where only the strongest survive. We would not know as we have never experienced rugby at that level but I know, before a test match, my nerves are shot and finger nails non existent. Imagine being the players!

 Also playing JP at 15 is not playing him out of position. He can play 11,13,14 or 15. It all began at 15 for him. He was recognized on the world stage as a 15 so clearly he is good enough to play 15.

I would understand trying to convert Habana or Mvovo to 15 and how it would not work but JP is a 15 as much as he is a 13 or 14. His best rugby has come at 14 simply because he played 14 the most or every game.

All he needs to do is get an extended run at 15, start thinking like a 15 again and we are away laughing. He has the skillset, has the boot, has the size and all the rest. It will all come back to him pretty quickly because he is a class player and he has plenty experience at test level. He is a better 15 than Willie.

boklogic

What I said is not what you think and to just ruin over what I said is wrong.   I never said anywhere that I want whole-sale changes in the Springbok team - I am in favour of certain minor adjustments only - and not wholesale changes as you imply in your posting.

Unlike Pietersen - some of the players in the team lacks class and there should be minor changes.  Where I find fault with Mozart is that he wants the team filled with over 30 players well past their prime

I fail to understand why Pietersen should not be phased back into the team - what is wrong with that approach which was even applied to Du Preez - another classy player?   Like Du Preez - Piertersen will not have any actual game time with the present players and since there was a distinct change in style in this RC, I believe he should also be phased into the process.  

On one player I disagree with you totally.   Bring in Francois Steyn and you will destroy all attacking backline play by the Springboks.   That guy has lost his mojo and showed nothing in both the tests last year and in Super 15.   His problem was physical an d he has not shown yet that he can overcome that deficiency.  Maybe he can - but it will only become evident after a full season of Super 15.   After a very poor year - he should prove again that he still belongs - in other words he will have a mountain to climb.   His class will mean nothing in the present case.

 Yes, Frans Steyn was a big issue in the backline last year. He started off really poorly and I was a big anti-Frans campaigner.

He is clearly a troubled player but a player that good, doesn't suddenly just become bad. Its all about conditioning and confidence. How can he feel confident when everyone is calling him a fat lard and commenting on his weight.

He, just like us is human and he will hear everything that is said about him. He needed help and I hope he has got that.

If he can get back into prestine condition, I have no doubt he will once again be the Frans Steyn that hit the scene in a big way. He is too classy a player not to.

I dont want to lose tests as a Bok supporter so if he cant get back to that form, he shouldn't play but I know that if he can, he will be a great player once again and very important to the Bok's cause whether it be from centre or fullback.

These guys are made for test rugby. You cant disgard that. Whip him into shape. Hopefully he has found his desire for the game again now that he knows nothing comes easy.

boklogic

The problem with some players are that they think they are indispensable and then start with the idea that they can do what they please and still be selected.   Maybe Plumtree did Steyn a huge favour by dr4opping him from the starting 15 of the Sharks when it was clear to all that he was very poor and not following the healthy diet he was supposed to follow and his weight went from 118 kgs to 115 kgs and then back to 118 kgs.

That inhibited his speed and his playing ability.   If you look carefully at the pics Saffex posted on the issue of Steyn there is one thing which is indeed clear.   His legs are not those of a speedster - they are just not shaped correctly for speed purposes.   So it is likely that he will remain relatively slow even if his weight is within the realm of acceptability.

A strong but slowish runner will have a negative impact on the issue of backline attacking play - which to an extent is based on speed as a component.   That is why I really worried whether his inclusion would not jeopardise the weapon off importance to the game plan of Meyer insofar as backline play is concerned.  

It is not only his actual speed - but also his decisionmaking that makes him a questionable proposition.    Lets be frank on the issue.   His crashballing and lack of passing indicates a decisionmaking deficiency more than anything else.    That is why he can be regarded as a one-dimensional player.   He may be better suited at full back - where he has more time to make decisions - in fact that is where he started his career and was really impressive - but in the few games he did play for the Sharks at full back - there was a problem with both his positional play and his speed.   The latter could be corrected to an extent through coaching.

Under present condition I still do not see him succeeding at center and if he is selected as a test player I think the only position where he should be in the picture should be at full back.    

There comes a time when age catches you. It's inevitable.

There comes a time when even though you were ONCE UPON A TIME a class act, you now no longer are.

It is not a permanent thing. Nothing is ever permanent in this life.

Thinking that you can keep going indefinitely is foolishness. Like the boxer who wants to make yet another comeback … only to have the crud knocked out of him ... again.

Frans Steyn had an awesome world cup in 2007 … sadly he was never able to sustain that form ... it was a flash in the pan period that blessed him for a moment ... and then turned it's back on him and left .. poimanently.

I would never refer to him as a class act. He never was one.

It’s 6 years later … every one is still harping on about what he did then. I repeat ... IT'S 6 F-CKING YEARS LATER. Me thinks it's time to move on.

Leave him for Stupid to slobber over. That's what he does better than anyone on trhis board.

Let's be realistic, hey Logic ... common?!!!

AND ... to top it all … even my good friend Mike must surely agree that the plodder, who is allegedly even slower than an out of shape, obese prop forward … Willem Alberts … is quicker than Fat Fransie Steyn.