What has Meyer achieved running back to the rugby geriatrics?

When Meyer was appointed as coach he tried desperately to get back players he was familiar with - in other words players attached to the Bulls set up at one stage or another to be in the Springboks team.

He first approached Matfiekd to take on the captaincy and when that one was unsuccessful - he opted for Fourie du Preez.  Fourie was injured at the time and unfit and he declined as well.

He then fell back on the Bulls team to provide the key players.   During his first year as a coach 14 Bulls players were at one stage or another in the Springbok squad.  He was apparently not getting the results he wanted - and when given playing time was very disappointing. 

Since the present Bulls players were not showing up well - he then decided that the players he used to coach at the Bulls should provide the answer.  He then started his move back to the future.    Lets look at his key selections who were given playing time since then:-

Gurthro Steenkamp 

Steenkamp was the first selection od a vet dubious nature.   Anyone who studied Steenkamp's form in Toulouse would have noted that he  was not their first choice loosehead prop - he was played off the bench.   He was when called up to the 3023 EOYT squad fat and unfit.  

In the Scotland match at the end of 2012 Steenkamp lasted 15 minutes and the scrumming thereafter turned into a nightmare.   There was nothing better in the test against England - but he did last slightly  longer and  only became totally ineffective at minute 25.  

Having produced nothing of substance in 2012 - Steenkamp became an institution in the Meyer squads.  His biggest achievement has been collapsed scrums and consequential penalties.

Fourie Du Preez

Meyer always wanted Fourie du Preeez  and eventually got him back in the Springbok team.  He came off the bench in the one-sided Soweto test against Argentina and showed up very well when he came off the bench - all players looked like champions in that game.  Then he came back for the local RC games against the Wallabies and the AB's.

Careful analysis of those two games showed very average performances - what was clear was that Du Preez was not the player he used to be,  

Jacque Fourie

Meyer's next venture into the past was Fouire.  He played in all 3 EOYT tests and showed good defence and zero on attack.

Bakkies Botha

Despite the hype Botha was nediocre in the Scotland test and slightly better in the French test.

Victor Matfield

Latest news is that Matfield is on the way back.   Matfield is remembered as a good line out jumper who for the rest honeymooned in the backline frustrating many promising backline moves.

SUMMARY

None of the above players were on their return to Springbok rugby noticeable success

stories -they were dead average at best,   They did no better than other players would have done under similar circumstances. 

Is Meyer basically insecure and unsure of himself and not prepared to develop players with a realistic future in rugby?'

 What I am bloody sure is - with that collection of players - who let us down in 2010 onwards p there is no way we can make any progress in getting into a situation where we can compete with the AB's.   Matter of fact we can only go backwards. 

 #Mike

Some how I get the idea that you are not a Bulls fan.I dont know who you support and to be honest it doesnt really matter.I live abroad and in the begining I was an adamant Sharks and Sharks only fan.The Sharks were the solution to everything and the blame as well.But then I started to look at thing differently.I realised that I no longer was just another Sharks fan but a South-African fan.It was then that I started to support South-Africa...meaning any team that played against a Nzl or Aus team.Cause at the international stage no one cared if I was just a Sharks fan but it mattered if I was Saffa...LOL Ironic.So,Seeing the Bulls win three titles was something special.HM really achiefed a lot with a buch of rag tag nobody players that became stalwarts in the national team.At their prime there really wasnt a lock combenation better then that of Matfield and Botha and Fourie was sharper then ceramic china knife at number nine.Habana scored tries like it was out of fassion and well the rest developped pretty well.

Looking at the other teams in South Africa,comparring the results and then for HM to be selected as national coach it only made sense for him to select those players or try to lure them back.Cause he had a long standing relationship with them.I think for HM it was a big step up to the international platform.He was new at the job and wanted to play it safe and still wants to play it safe...there is the selection of Morne and the unselection of Lappies.

Personally I really hope that these players do not enter in to our views for long.Matfield will struggle to compete.Just look at Ali Williams and Simon Shaw who tried at the age of 38 to compete at the top level.Also he will loose player respect in the likes of Flip and Eben who I think has been out standing so far.IT would be a slap in the face for them.

I guess what I am trying to say is that,if you are a Cheetahs fan...Become a "we are one country "fan and support your team regardless of the coach.With Peter de Villiers we had to cringe our teeth for some of the things he did.Like having Bismarck on the bench and taking Smit to the world cup but De Villiers knew that he had the team if he had Smit...Ironic isnt it.

I dont think we will se manny old faces back.The press will crucify him and then the board.Team spirit will lack and the results will drop.I honestly think that we will see much of the same with the guys we saw last year.Maybe if Pierre is fit we will see him back in the mix but nothing more.If anything I think  a lot of other younger players will be putting up their hands in the up comming Supper rugby serries.

 #Pukedupkiwi

What youngsters are you reffering to?

Etzebeth...Who by that time would have played nearly 50 test matches...

Lambie...the same nearly 50...

Louw...Alberts...Who?

Stick to stamp collecting my bru form another mother.

Interesting. You recognize the pool games shouldn't be a challenge, and easy wins will be recorded. So come the QF, why would HM not choose his oldies but goodies? Age related and form related injuries you say. I'm not sure......bwahahaha....what a form related injury is. I might posit it's an injury that impacts form, but why would it be bracketed with age related injuries? It's either gibberish or a severe language malfunction.

Still setting that aside a series of easy pool games, with many B team guys playing against the minnows scar cely sets up the QF for a total collapse. Nope HM will play all his golden oldies in the QF, they will be quite fresh and should win.

Actually I posted something to that effect a week or so ago. The issue is primarily in the backline....where du Preez, Morne, Jean, Fury, Habana and Peterson  could all lose form before the RWC. So there is a significant chance of having to turn over much of the backline before that.

It's a difficult choice though, because the youngsters with the exception of Willy haven't really pressed the incumbents. The right way to solve this problem is for the youngsters to make a better case.

Mozart

Problem is Fourie was off-side when he did the "flip" you referred to - and it is unlikely that  another ref would have missed that one and not checked what happened.   Another ref and the outcome could have been the Springboks under severe pressure I n their own 22.  

You cannot bargain on a repeat and that one is really not unique at all - I have seen such passing often enough even in the JWC.   Fourie to my min d is a dead duck on attack and way past it.

I agree - we have problems I replacing of back line players - but not of forwards and that is where Meyer is really bringing in the oldies.     

Arizona

I support any SA team playing any foreign team and internally I support the Sharks - I lived in Kwa-Zulu - Natal for more than half my life and the Stormers where I grew up.   I also have a soft spot for the Cheetahs, because Bloem has percentage wise  more beautiful girls than  all other cities.   LOL

What I do not support is mediocre performance of individual players - irrespective of which franchise the are from.  

You may not accept what I said above about the Bulls - but it is a fact and Meyer himself admitted he made selection errors in 2012 going for players he was familiar with.   He used the same term in dealing with the captaincy too. 

I have no problem with the issue of the Bulls players playing for the Springboks - I have problems when they under-perform and not being meeting reasonable playing requirements.   

Mozart

Problem is Fourie was off-side when he did the "flip" you referred to - and it is unlikely that  another ref would have missed that one and not checked what happened.   Another ref and the outcome could have been the Springboks under severe pressure I n their own 22.  

You cannot bargain on a repeat and that one is really not unique at all - I have seen such passing often enough even in the JWC.   Fourie to my min d is a dead duck on attack and way past it.

I agree - we have problems I replacing of back line players - but not of forwards and that is where Meyer is really bringing in the oldies.    

 Saffex

I am n full agreement with you on this score - w are going nowhere fast in this case.  Nukefreekiwi summed it up very well when he wrote as follows:-

"It  seems to me that young aspiring SB players are held to a different standard than Meyers "chosen" ones."

After matches Meyer praised the oldies like it is unbelievable - while match analysis and stats indicate failure.  I suppose he has to - because his selections are being queried - but it seems to support the above quotations - Meyer himself is pumping up the praise songs to justify his selections.   

What makes his worse is Meyer is also stuck with other players who are no up to standard.  The fiasco involving Morne  Steyn at Stade Francais has proven that Steyn is not top selection material.   The question is will Meyer realise that?   

We also have a weird situation that players constantly get offers to play abroad.   If they do not get offers there are reasons for that.   Despite the hype the situation basically is that the foreign clubs have looked at them and found them wanting.    We have players like Alberts being hyped up like it Is unbelievable - but he does not get offers from foreign clubs.   Why is that the case?   The answer is simple - he does not meet their basic requirements so we are stuck with him.   Does that not tell you about Meyer's selection criteria?   It tells me a lot - in my opinion he is stuck in the past with both player selection and game plans.    

Dave I hate being repetitive, but your constant JJ punting leaves me no choice. JJ did one class thing in the Ellis Park test when he dummied and jinked outside Savea. He beat one man....whoopie!

Now consider what he did wrong.

He failed to take the match kickoff, leading to immediate AB pressure.

He failed to put Savea out over the touchline in the build up to Messam's first try. 

He overran Morne's pass when the Boks tried a set move from a promissing scrum 10 metres out.

He isolated himself and got turned just before the half.

He then missed Nonu badly in the fo llow up play leading to Messam's try.

He missed Barrett for the RC winning try

That's four seven point situations where he failed to execute. Then you take his horrible miss of Bosch in the Mendoza test and it's easy to see why HM looked elsewhere.

I can't think of a better way to put this.....who are the young Jeans, Habanas, JPs, Furies. Guys keep on saying we have huge amounts of talent and certainly there are a lot of good players. But I see nobody with the stature of those four....the ability to come into the team and immediately out compete their direct international opponents.

Serfontein, JJ, Mvovo? Not a patch on those old chaps in their early days.

Dave..... Nonu steps JJ , but JJ hauls him in....yes after he is stopped by another player.  Morne passes behind JJ....but if he passed any flatter it would have been forward etc.etc.etc. All just spin Dave.

But the Barrett and Bosch tries can't be imagined away. The Bok 13 was the effective last line of defence....in both cases he hits the player and in both cases he fails to make the tackle. That's not accep table for a Bok centre.

Serfontein looks better than Jean? Dave I can't agree. Jean had genuine pace as a youngster. His early years were dogged by injury, but whenever fit, he was a genuine threat.

So what is Serfontein's thing? I don't believe he has express pace....adequate, no more. Nor is he particularly strong ....the guys seem to bring him down quite easily in senior rugby. He relies on an inside step, much like Wynand and  Steppie. That's not going to fool many defences...and unlike Jean he doesn't ride the inevitable tackle. I'd say, at this stage, he is predictable and easy to defend.

But Serfontein has time on his side....JJ doesn't. Which is why his dropping is so ominous. As for being a better attacker than Fury....he is certainly faster and more accelerative .....but he has no software. He can't see the field, can't anticipate what's happening.....has no way of dealing with tight defences. So how better?

Mozart

I have my own reservations about the Bulls center pairing - Serfontein and Engelbrecht.   Although Serfotein is not a game breaker at present - he as all the abilities to become a star player - since he has a rugby brain and is a clever player.

Engelbrecht is a player that Saffex likes - heavy and strong like Francois Steyn - but with no ball sense and who tries too run over or through players with very little to show for it and really without any constructive ideas about how the team would benefit from the rushes of blood to the head.

However,, Fourie is not the answer to the problem either  and I think we have to look wider for a solution.   That is one reason why I think the upcoming Super series is so important.   It should give us an idea where to go.   Still think Enelbrecht would be an excellent wing though.  

 Saffex

You don't get it.   Rugby players need some brain capacity too to play and read games.  Neither the slow Steyn at 12 - nor the fast Engelbrecht at 13 can read games properly.    They are like  one-dimensional  robots - they run straight at the tackler in the hope the tackler misses them - it never works and a maul is the inevitable result.   Steyn is the greatest crash baller in modern rugby - he never tries anything else - and Englbrecht does the same at speed. 

They re unable to read games and as a result they virtually never creates anything for outside players.   

So Oom, am I meant to take your word for it

Either you are blind or just very stupid

Answer this question dumbass...........when JJ beat Savea, was he running straight through at him in the hope he would miss the tackle?

When JJ stepped Cruden, was he running straight at him in the hope he would miss the tackle?

How stupid are you really? But be a sport and answer the questions - it should be interesting!!