19 Jul 2014, 08:47#2
Its a sad state of affairs when the Iraqis would have been BETTER OFF under an arse of a man like Saddam.....as for gaza I was with UNPROFOR as an observer in the 80s we were part of a UN contingent policing the Golan Heights .My admiration or the IDF is unbounded , these guys would put themselves at enormous risk to avoid civilian casualties ,the direct opposite to the Syrians we observed [cant speak for hamas but they would be the same] trying to hit Israeli civilians with the occasional Artillery barrage .When mothers give their approval to hamas launchers being next to their families then theres no hope from that quarter .Israel has endured over 20000 rocket and artillery attacks since they handed over gaza to hamas , who could allow that ? Because of the constant attacks the Israelis have become hardened towards the "palestinians" I the shooting stops they can go forward but its all hamas has to hold onto power so it aint gonna happen soon.As or the 19th century , nope leaders were probably worse with kings still having a say in matters and the general populous all to willing to follow their leaders into pointless wars [ nothing changes] ,remember when concentration camps were invented ? Kids in coal mines ? [ still going on in the form of sweat shops ,just not so much in 1st world countries]
DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
19 Jul 2014, 09:20#3
It doesn't stop saltwater filling my eyes when I read the news but there's a feelgood story running alongside of the misery about a Turtle caught in fishnet off the coast of Mexico....freed by a diver it swims off only to UTurn and stick out a fin for the diver to hold .....http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/07/19/11/20/tangled-turtle-thanks-rescuer
NTntanga
Club Pro336 posts
19 Jul 2014, 11:21#6
Well, that was a second Malaysian plane whipped out of the face of the earth in a space of say five months! It's still a mystery how the other Plane got missing, but it has and hasn't been found yet.
I feel for Malaysia.
@ Wardad; I couldn't agree more boet. Wh ere I live, most people blame the Israelis for what is happening in Gaza. Unfortunately, until someone understand Israel's history regarding its land plus crazy neighbors, they'll never get to grips with why things are as they are.
19 Jul 2014, 12:38#7
Too true ntanga, people just go along with whatever talking heads or the internet tells them .I have seen with my own eyes wounded Israeli soldiers who were hit trying to minimise cvilian casualties after hunting terrs back over the border .We would actually overstep our mandate by passing on intel to local IDF units because real soldiers dont hide behind women and children .JWs peeps in Poland know what war and strifes all about and they value their families and freedom from all that misery .Look after your kids [ that doesnt mean filling their heads with hate ] and you have gone a long way to making a better world ,family first always a good thing .2 Aussies on the 2nd plane had family on the first.That turtle story reminds me of the dolphin on you-tube wrapped in fishing line who grabbed a divers attention then patiently kept still while he cut the line ...awesome still exists !
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Jul 2014, 13:29#8
The restraint of the Israelis has been beyond belief. The muslim jihardists are the pits and a threa t to world peace.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Jul 2014, 13:38#9
Mike dont talk nonsense. Israel does want peace they are not the transgressors.They even warn where theyare going to bomb so civilians can move out. They tell tehm when its safe to go back. Power and water are not cut off etc etc.
It is the expressed desire of israels enemies rto wipe them of the face of the earth.
But yes people who can shoot acivilain aircraft out of the air are far gone. shocking really.
19 Jul 2014, 13:43#10
If beaner and I can agree on something then theres hope in the world eh ?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Jul 2014, 18:51#11
Beeno
Sometimes I wonder whether Israel in fact wants peace. If their is an agreement on anything - they find to find another reason to get out. There one thing i do not like is the West Bank settlements - they merely decide where a new settlement shall be - take over the land without compensation paid to the previous owners and start building the settlements and then wonder why people are upset with them after breaking down the home of the previous owner. Not nice. Machiacelli said "A Prince should not take the property of his people - People sooner forget the loss of a parent than the loss of their property"
Like all over the world there are moderate Palestinians as well with whome an agreement is possible. But these moderates are undercut by adverse actions making them appear powerless - and that plays directly into the hands of the Terrorists.
Be it as it may - I am not really convinced the actions of the Israeli Government does not undermine any potential peace agreement. One thing it reminds me of is the assassination of Count Bernedotte of Sweden in 1948. He was the UN Peace Negotiator with the various parties involved and came up with peace plan acceptable to all parties - but Jewsih extremists. On the way to Jerusalem - he was assassinated by an Israeli army officer - who was afterwards rewarded by the successive Israeli Governments for a valuable service rendered. You do not murder a peace negotiator of the UN and then honour the murderer involved - it is just not acceptable.
ABABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
20 Jul 2014, 17:18#12
This is another view to the issue. Is what Amnesty International repports about the general situation and the human rights in the Occupied Territories. It has been taken from:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports/annual-report-israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territories-2013
http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/gazareport2011.pdf
The Israeli authorities held more than 4,500 Palestinian prisoners, including 178 administrative detainees at the end of the year.Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees during arrest and interrogation was reported. Israel's military blockade of the Gaza Strip continued to severely affect Gaza's 1.6 million residents. In November, Israel launched an eight-day military campaign against Palestinian armed groups who fired rockets indiscriminately from Gaza into Israel; more than 160 Palestinians as well as six Israelis were killed, including many civilians. Both sides violated international humanitarian law in the conflict. The Israeli authorities continued to restrict the movement of Palestinians in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, construct the fence/wall, and expand illegal Israeli settlements while failing to protect Palestinians and their property from settler violence. They also continued to demolish Palestinian homes and carry out forced evictions. The Israeli military continued to use excessive force against protesters in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT); in addition to 100 civilians killed during the November conflict in Gaza, Israeli forces killed at least 35 civilians in the OPT during the year. Palestinian citizens of Israel faced discrimination in housing and residency rights, and continued home demolitions, particularly in the Negev/Naqab region. Thousands of people seeking international protection were detained administratively under a new law implemented in June. Israeli forces responsible for the killing and injuring of Palestinian civilians and torture and other ill-treatment of detainees continued to evade accountability.
The myriad restrictions imposed by the Israeli authorities on the movement of Palestinians amounted to collective punishment of the population of Gaza and the West Bank, in violation of international law. Over 500 Israeli checkpoints and barriers in the West Bank, as well as the fence/wall, restricted Palestinians' movement, particularly in East Jerusalem, part of Hebron, the Jordan Valley and areas near settlements. Palestinians were required to obtain permits from the Israeli authorities while Israelis, including settlers, enjoyed free movement in these areas. There were continued reports of harassment and abuse of Palestinians at checkpoints by Israeli personnel. Movement restrictions also impeded Palestinians' access to medical care, water and farmland.
As Israel's military blockade of the Gaza Strip entered its sixth year, its impact on basic infrastructure, including water, sanitation and power supplies continued to be severe. Israel continued to severely limit exports from and imports to Gaza, stifling its economy and driving the perilous underground smuggling trade from Egypt, which continued to claim the lives of those using the tunnels.
While restrictions on access to and from Gaza date back to the 1990s, these
restrictions were intensified leading to the current blockade after
Hamas took control of the Gaza's Strip in June 2007. The Israeli Security Cabinet declared Gaza a ‘hostile entity’ and decided to impose additional sanctions restricting the passage of goods, fuel and people. Israel has a duty to protect its citizens from security threats and the measures it uses to do so must conform to
international humanitarian and human rights law.
This includes its legal obligation as an occupying power to protect the safety, rights and needs of the occupied civilian population. The government of Israel holds the position that the restrictions and procedures are part of legitimate warfare.
However, the International Committee of the Red Cross has recently confirmed that the blockade constitutes a collective punishment of the entire civilian population of Gaza and is in clear violation of international humanitarian law.
(Collective punishment is what the nazis and the SS implemented all over Europe during the II WW)
- Situation in the Gaza strip:key humanitarian indicators:
• 80% of the population is dependent on international aid.
• 61% of the population is food insecure.
• Unemployment rate is around 39%, one of the highest in the world.
• Power outages usually last 4-6 hours a day and often longer.
• About 90% of water supplied to Gaza residents is not suitable for drinking and is contaminated with salt and nitrates.
• 60% of Gaza’s population receives running water only once every 4 or 5 days, for 6-8 hours.
• 50 to 80 million litres of untreated or partially treated sewage are released into the sea every day.
• 78% of homes with major damages from operation Cast Lead have not been rebuilt
ABABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
20 Jul 2014, 17:20#13
In the situation described above, Israel launched an operation to revenge the killing of 3 adolescent settlers against Hamas (and through the collective punishment, against the whole population of the Gaza strip) when now it's known that Hamas has nothing to do with it, all the signals point to the Islamic State of the Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), a non-existant organization in Palestine.
The next has been taken from different news and reports:
The latest assault on the Palestinian people is a war crime and an ongoing crime against humanity. That position was affirmed by the international Court of Justice, which ruled that as an occupying military power Israel has an obligation under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 to protect the rights of civilians under military occupation.
Within this legal framework, the killing of civilians under occupation, indiscriminate shelling of Palestinian communities, collective punishments, house demolitions, arbitrary imprisonment, the theft of water and other natural resources and the building of settlements in occupied territories are all considered war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Altogether, the death toll for Palestinians is now 267, according to Haaretz. At least 47 children have been killed, More than 80 percent of deaths in Gaza since Israel’s assault began more than ten days ago have been civilians.
The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reported on the emergency situation in Gaza. Over 1,764 have been injured by Israel’s assault so far. More than five hundred are children.
The assault has displaced 22,900 people and fifty percent of “sewage pumping and treatment centers” no longer are operating.
Palestinian militant groups have continued to fire rockets into Israel. Primarily, those rockets have killed one person and maybe injured 26 people. Most have been landing in open areas or have been intercepted by the US-funded Iron Dome system.
It is estimated that 96,400 Palestinians are now in need of “shelter assistance” because of destruction or damage to their homes.
The assault on the people and the institutions of Gaza has as its objective the eradication of the people of Gaza – not necessarily in the physical sense, only because at this stage in global consciousness any such attempt would galvanize universal opposition, but to erase Gaza as a functioning society, to destroy it politically, culturally, spiritually and psychologically.
“Protective Edge,” the cartoonish name given to the latest Israeli military offensive against the occupied people of Palestine, is representative of the inverted reality whereby the 1.7 million captive and largely defenseless Palestinians in Gaza are the vicious aggressors against the peace-loving settlers of Israel. Similar to the inverted reality in the U.S., where the myth of the innocent settler was created to justify the systematic slaughter of Indigenous peoples, the genocidal policies of Israel are camouflaged by the transformation of its position from an armed colonial invader to one of victim.
The corporate media not only parrot Israel’s victim narrative but go even further with the creation of the two-equal-sides fiction.
It should be clear that attempting to conceptually equate the force of the state of Israel, one of the most powerful militaries in the world, with a resistance movement of a captive people trapped by land and sea in an open-air concentration camp on one of the most densely populated strips of land on the planet is a position that is fundamentally immoral.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jul 2014, 19:28#14
AB
In 2001 I had to address an International Conference on Publi-Private Partnerships held in Bremen - Germany. The Mayor of Hebron was at the Conference - which took place 14 days after 22 Palestinian school children - playing on the school site - was killed by the Israeli army. I could only express sympathy to him - the man was nearly in tears.
There was a huge internayional outcry about it - the Israeli Army did an investigation and squashed hte whole thing by saying the school children attacked them 0 the children did note ven have stones with them and the attack on the children was swept under the carpet.
By the way there has been constant allegations about Hamas being responsible for teh avduction of the three Israeli kids recently - hundreds were arrested - but not a single person charged as yet - at least not what I have seen in the local media. Why keep 400 people in prison for teh avduction - they could not be collectively responsible in that case.
Be it as it may - I have my own reservations about the world scene at this stage - at best it just does not look right to me.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Jul 2014, 19:50#15
Completely agree Wardad....and no country in history has tolerated air attacks on its civilians without responding. We have two very confused fellows on this string.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Jul 2014, 20:13#16
The Oom at the conference in Bremen...he is the one at the bottom
ABABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
20 Jul 2014, 21:26#17
@mozart,
"and no country in history has tolerated air attacks on its civilians without responding"
According to your reasoning Israel could perfectly now throw 2 or 3 atomic bombs over Gaza and kill all the Palestinians living there, almost 2 million persons. They would be responding to an attack "and no country in history has tolerated air attacks on its civilians without responding".
No, absolutely not. There are limits and these limits are the Geneva Convention and all the other international laws. Accoerding to Amnesty International and the Red Cross, Israel is constantly "in clear violation of international humanitarian law".
The latest assault on the Palestinian people is a war crime and an ongoing crime against humanity. Around 225 civilians have been killed, at least 47 children included, in a collective punishmenmt. Exactly the same way the nazis and the SS used all over Europe when they were attacked by the "resistaince" or the different partisans, italians, serbians, greeks,...
Latest news say that 62 more persons have been killed in the last attack. Btwin them there are 17 children, 14 women and 4 elder people. Do you really think that this is a correct "response", mozart?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jul 2014, 22:00#18
Mozart
Balls as per normal - I addressed many seminars and conferences all over the country and in England and Germany on issues pertaining to development - so that one of yours is per normal absolute rubbish.
In Iraq it was "weapons of mass destruction" - in Gaza it is just area bombardments irrespective of who is invovled. Suddenly it is tunnel destruction - that was dreamed up a week agter the initial assaults. How many tunnels are there entering Israel? If they find them - by all means destroy them.
Sorry - but this is just a breach of international humanitarian law and many people think it should stop.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Jul 2014, 22:00#19
If you use human shields...who is to blame?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jul 2014, 22:04#20
Mozar t
Come now - do you really believe that BS?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Jul 2014, 22:40#22
So Oom you believe Bush and Blair lied through their teeth about WMDs, knowing they would be proven wrong within months. But they still went ahead and lied. Oh and the conspiracy included both of their cabinets, their UN representatives, outside consultants and many other government people. They all lied on cue.
You and your buddies in local government are a joke.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jul 2014, 22:55#23
Mozart
If there ever was weapons of mass destruction as claimed as a reason for the Iraq war - why was nothing ever found? When nothing was in fact found - the nww reason became advancement of democracy in Iraq - no more talk of weapons of mass destruction.
Look we know that Bush was hell-bent to wage war in Iraq despite nobody ever found any proof - an English expert even committed suicide because of the fact that he said their were no weapons of mass destruction and Blair said the opposite - so what is one to believe?
This has nothing to do with my buddies - this has to do with something on international level. The fact is that Blair and Bush actuakllly cnvinced themself that their are such things and they had their normal retinue that will say "Yes Boss - you are always right - Boss . my I lick your boots now - Boss - who will do their bidding irrespective of what iare fctual.
Mind you in a way their thinking must be in line with some of your rugby pronouncements - so bent it is unbelievable.
ABABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
20 Jul 2014, 23:05#24
More news:
"United Nations officials in Gaza reported Friday that the number of internally displaced Gazans seeking shelter at UN facilities had doubled to more than 40,000. But food is running out at these facilities, even as electric power and water supplies have been cut off for the overwhelming majority of the population."
"In clear-cut crime against humanity, Gaza hospitals, which have been overwhelmed by the influx of wounded even as they run out of the most basic supplies, have themselves been repeatedly targeted for shelling and air strikes since the initiation of the Israeli ground invasion."
"In an act of psychological terror, Israel dropped leaflets ordering over 100,000 Palestinians in the border areas to flee their homes. The reality, however, is that there is nowhere to hide from the assault."
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Jul 2014, 03:47#25
A little anti semetic are we Basque and Mike? But I'm guessing that's cool in the circles you chaps frequent.
GEgeneraltit
Pro3,164 posts
21 Jul 2014, 06:07#26
lolz
Looking for weapons of mass destruction...lens covers over field glasses...nothing changes
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Jul 2014, 09:51#28
Mozart
I am new being accused of being anti-sematic - not so? I have a destitute Jewish woman - supported by the Jewish League with a grant of R1 000 per month - staying in a flat attached to my house FREE OF CHARGE. I pay all her residential costs - electricity, water and have here connected to my TV system and provided her with furniture as well. That is how Anti-Sematic I am.
There is a difference - everybody who question the behaviour of the Israeli Government is accused of being anti-sematic. That is really BS. The Government of Israel is run by some really bloodthirsty reactionary scoundrels who has a license to kill leaders like Rabin and as happened in the case of Count Bernadotte I mentioned earlier.
There is no difference between being reactionary Jews and being reactionary Muslims - both stoke fires of hatred and is disgusted by moderate people who think that reactionaries damage the world we live in.
21 Jul 2014, 12:48#29
If hamas was booted out of Gaza by their own people that would be a great start .Hamas is not interested in any sort of peace as they would lose their grip on power , which is what it boils down to,desperate arseholes willing to sacrifice innocents to hold onto POWER .If hamas used building materials to build houses instead of reinforced tunnels for suicide bombers and missile transport maybe Isreal would open the border [ people forget that EGYPT has also closed off the border ] I am not a fan of Churchill but he was right when he said "its better to Jaw-Jaw than to War-War " You cant negotiate when your being shot at ,hamas arent interested anyway .Palestinians need to get themselves leaders who actually give a shit about them .
Meanwhile in Iraq the christian population that 25 years ago was 400,000 is now down to 130,000 but thats OK I guess cos its not on twatter or what have you.As for many places women and non muslims have no rights .I have met many Muslim dudes who are easy to get along with until Israel or Jews comes up and its like a switch goes off in their heads and they become someone else , all due to centuries of hatred hammered into them and its a goddam shame to see.Family first , dont put your kids in harms way if someone is creating a dangerous environment for them remove the cause or the kids.
ABABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
21 Jul 2014, 12:48#30
"A little anti semetic are we Basque and Mike? But I'm guessing that's cool in the circles you chaps frequent."
This is the kind of things that some mean people resort to when they have no arguments. Repugnant
After despising the death of more than 300 people , at least 61 children among them, ("If you use human shields...who is to blame?") do you think you can morally judge anybody? do you think you can call people whatever you want like that? you are shit
Don't you ever refer to me or name me, human scum
21 Jul 2014, 13:34#31
Sadly the "Holy Land" means just that to many people [ it is quite common for fights to break out in the church of the Holy sepulchre between Christians of different orders over seconds of extra time taken ] and this adds a whole other dimension to the long history of violence in this blighted land .From our OP in the Golan we could see wrecks from WW2 tanks through to cold war era T55s-62s and artifacts dating from pre christian era wars were found in the area as well .The 'Valley of Tears " was a sobering sight ,hundreds of burnt out tanks and vehicles , pie ces of bone all from 1973 .It never seems to end there .
21 Jul 2014, 13:45#33
There were no weapons of mass destruction and yes Blair lied as we all knew at the time. The man was, and remains, a disgrace and he should be in The Hague for crimes against humanity.
Look at what he has unleashed alongside his buddy Mr Bush.
They don't so much have blood on their hands as are dripping in the stuff. Goodness knows how so many were fooled by them. Thank goodness some of us retained our sanity, for what good it did us and all the poor people who lost their lives and limbs as a result. And those that are now living in the utter hell they have unleashed.
Nice to see John Kerry has made it known Hamas were not told of the "ceasefire" and that they were being blamed for reneging on it, albeit he did it inadvertantly !
Don't play the Anti-Semitic card when anyone expresses the view that Israel also have to take a huge amount of blame here. Even many Israelis are sick of it....are they anti-Semites too ?
Israel does act illegally, they use weapons that are outlawed the world over and they have taken land and blockaded the Palestinian people in to areas from which they cannot escape....and if you do not believe in the Bible, which I do not, I am afraid that some of their claims for that land fall on hollow ears.
It is a complicated and complex mess. So much bloodshed and it is horrific. It has to stop.But starving people and blockading them in is not the way to bring about a peaceful solution to any situation.
It's not about rights, it's about people and humanity for goodness sake.
21 Jul 2014, 14:43#34
Hamas has to stop firing at Israel ,its not just the right thing to do or their people its the smart thing to do no rockets no reason to invade .Then they have to concede Isreals right to exist in peace [ which is how Egypt regained the Sinai , diplomacy does work sometimes it seems , although Sadat paid with his lie or it ]Should Israel just allow hamas to attack non-stop ? would you ? Israel has allready in the past offered everything that hamas asked for [ barring dismantling Israel and handing it over ,then allowing hamas and their cronies to do as they will ]
21 Jul 2014, 15:30#35
Israel wants Palestine full stop.They have choked the life out of it since they reneged on the terms and took more land than they should gave in the first instance. Does that not breed extremism ? When people have nothing, they have nothing to lose.
That is how they see the situation.
21 Jul 2014, 16:39#36
Money is poured into Gaza to what end ? If they dont fire missiles or send suicide bombers then Israel will have no right of reply .When you justfy terrorists you have no right to be angered when they attack YOUR people like in England [ which palestinians cheered by the way ] or lets say the IRA who say that your people are an occupying force so they were within their rights to attack civilians .Hamas is the main cause of this unless you think they bear no responsibility or their own peoples suffering ,do you ? Do you think hamas is pure as the driven snow and justified in deliberately targeting civilians ? The IDF knows full well the propaganda value hamas places on dead civilians its something the IDF goes to great lengths to avoid and I can guarantee you the Israelis would have far ewer casualties if they didnt care about civilian deaths .You dont seem to make any distinction between hamas and the people they supposedly represent [ only 10% support prior to their latest round of rocket attacks far higher now] Al Jazheera released casualty figures of 90% hamas casualties [ 10% is still too many civilians but were it say sunni vs shia I bet it would be worse]Gaza needs more Ghandi's and fewer Guevara's.
21 Jul 2014, 17:23#38
I was always amazed by the difference at the borders of Israel ,on Israels side orchards good roads well laid out towns schools etc and on the arab side would be a few goats and stunted looking crops ,ramshackle villages with men sitting on their asses while women bustled around keeping everything running .I would never fear to tread in Israel but in Gaza ?I would quickly be the latest in you tube beheadings what with being an infidel and all.You really do need to start off with that whole mutual right to exist thing dont you ? Israel has never stated any desire to butcher all arabs [ and a few unhinged individuals saying it doesnt count ] in Gaza unlike hamas who has it in their charter and who's actual leaders have stated this many times in public for all to see.Once again hamas isnt the voice of all in gaza and certainly dont give a shit for the people there[ ev er wonder what happened to the PLO and Fatah ?]
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Jul 2014, 17:58#39
Mozart
The reputations of Bush and Blair has been in tatters for years. What becs wrote is true and it is only the US Government that keep things under wraps. An English Investigation revealed that there never was any doubt that Blair - with the assistance of Bush took the Cabinet and Parliament for a ride on the score of the so-called Weapons of Mass Destruction issue. If you think it is not possible then it shows how clueless you are about the functioning of Government. Everything is based on reports and reports are often written to please those in charge. If Bush wanted a report that there were weapons of Mass Destruction - he would get a report confirming it together with evidence based on fabricated information.
If you believe that Governments are always honest in their doings - then you are the one believing in tooth fairies. The Weapons of Mass Destruction was a scam and that is a fact - proved afterwards never to have existed. Why did nobody ever found even a trace of it - because it never was in existence and if Bush did not know that he was a fool. He knew and kept the pretense to start a war - knowing that he could always escape by claiming the need for establishing a democracy in Iraq. Be it as it may - it proved to the World that the biggest foul up made since the Vietnam War - was the war in Iraq. Both were doomed from the start, since there were ulterior motives in both cases.
As to the need for Israel to exist - at various times the major countries bordering *Israel and especially Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon has recognized the right of Israel to exist and even the PLO said they would recognize it if Israel recognize Palestine as a state. They never got anything from Israel - but the breaching of every agreement ever reached. Every time there is negotiations Israel sabotage it by proclaiming new settlements in the West Bank on stolen land from the residents. Try the latest round of negotiations by Kerry for example. The moment the negotiations showed some progress - the Israeli Government approve plans for building homes in the West bank area - knowing full well that would scuttle the negotiations.
I think that reasonable people would recognize Israel's right to exist - but then one would expect Israel too recognize the right o f other people in the area to be treated as human beings as well.
If Israel followed an honest policy all along - they would have been recognized for years and like in Egypt in the case of Morsi - the reactionaries in Gaza and the West Bank would be out of existence by now or being in jailed by their own leaders. But that would not serve the purpose of the present Israeli Government at all - and would in some ways reduce the billions Israel gets from the US in aid. That is not acceptable - so let us have another War.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Jul 2014, 19:20#40
Look Oom you must believe whatever your anti semetic feelings dictate.
