What is happening on the Jantjies issue

When Earl Silky Hands was signed up by the Stormers amid huge fanfare - he was hailed as the great Stormers backline saviour - I expressed some serious doubts as to whether he would be effective.   A number of problems that became evident during his days at the Lions were mentioned by me - 

*   namely the fact that witout Jantjies the Lions backline was more effective from an attacking perspective;

*   that he was always a poor defender;

*   he  cannot take pressure and when playing he teds to make handling errors; and

*  he could be brilliant on occassion - but if what he tries goes off, he is good enough, but the unpredictable outcome of his efforts can from a team perspective e devastating.

On the positive side - he was a very good goalkicker - but pressure could affect his performance there as well.

I went on to state that he was not going to last in the Stormers line-up  and that they should have stuck with Catrakillis and not sign up Jantjies for the Super 15 season. 

Let me in the first instance state clearly - thee xtremely poor performance of the Stormers this year cannot be attributed to Jantjies alone - there were other problems in the camp as well.  Injuries was a major problem for them - but team selection also played a negative role.   However, there is no dount that Jantjies failed them badly in games they should have won.   His goalkicking deserted him completely and because of that  Pietersen must always be in the team to cater for kicks at goal.

After being put on the bench for the game against the Waratahs and never used at all - I am beginning to feel that the Stormers management is beginning to realize that they made a mistake in signing up Jantjies and he may be on the way out.   

 Clevermike

I saw an article earlier in the week where Alistair Cotzee was speaking. 

He said that Gary Van Aswagen is the current first choice at 10. 

The reason is that Van Aswagen gives them more stability at 10, which they did not have before. (This season).

He said that Jantjies would get more oppertunities, but Van Aswagen is currently the first choice(at least until Peter Grant  is back from injury).

Too many small players in the Stormers backline with Jantjies, Joe Pieterson, Aplon and Dejong. 

Aplon at least scores tries, and Dejong is a decent tackler. 

Joe Pieterson and Jantjies at 10 and 15 combined with other small players is just too small.

In that case Jantjies will not be on the bench.

-

When Peter Grant Returns he will take over the pole kicking. 

This will allow the Stormers to maybe drop Joe Pieterson for a bigger player and more attacking player- maybe Ghost. 

-

Not sure what is happening with Timo Swiel, but if the Stormers do not want him the Sharks must sign him. 

Bambie can go back to fullback, and Swiel can play at 10

Saffex

No use swearing - fact is that Jantjies did not meet expectations.  Read carefully what Sharkbok wrote about the statement of Coetzee.   If and when Grant returns - he will take over at flyhalf with van Aswegen on the bench and Jantjies nowhere to be seen.

Fact is I predicted that Jantjies would be phased out by the Stormers.  If Grant was not injured it would have happened a month ago already - he just is not good enough on Super 15 level.  That may answer your question whether Van Aswegen is a better flyhalf than Jantjies.  Answer - Van Aswegen definitely is and that was proven in the matches those two players played for the Stormers this year and the obvious fact as stated by Coetzee himself. 

Mike, wake up, Coetzee is hardly the measure, in fact he is piss poor. v/Aswegen is way out of his depth only a complete fool would play him ahead of the creative Jantjies. Hell Coetzee is stupid enough to play Duvenhage as his number one 9, retain de Jongh at 13 and think he is going to take on the world with little guys like Joe, Aplon and de Jongh in his backline. The guy is clueless and his results speak for themselves

Saffex

Lets face facts - Jantjies is not as good as he was given out to be in th media when he was playing for the Lions.  He is unpredictable and in some cases downright poor - his creative moments are very, very few and far between.   That makes him a problem for any team - where stability to my mind is essential.  

I think as a junior Jantjies showed some promise - but it never really was carried through subsequently.   He just does not meet requirements at present and I think I saw it coming after making a study of his performances for the Lions.   Personally I think he is about at the end of his Super 15 career and in future may play on CC level - but not higher - that is if he is contracted to one of the less prominent CC teams like the Pumas or the Leopards.

 The usual crap - as predictable and boring as ever - nothing changes - one big fat yawn. Summed up by saying the useless v/Aswegen is better than Jantjies - talk about rugby ignorance

Saffex

I accept the ignorance allegation - but I am also a realist that does see practical things and do not thrive on pipe dreams - so lets wait and see what happens in this case.

It does not take much to conclude that v/Aswegen is pretty poor and that Jantjies is a far better player. Its insulting comparing them.

Saffex - your language has vastly improved recently. Well done chap.

I think that the WPRU have been saving a little face by putting Jantjies on the bench. His performances when he has played are certainly not up to standard and he has become a traget for other teams which is going to make it even more difficult to recover his form, if he had any at all.

Saffex

I do test things I say sometimes by looking at the Stats provided by various websites - that is after stating my own viewpoints and those being contested.

In looking at the stats I took into account the number of games played as well as the number of games coming off the bench.   In this particular case I took both into account and also looked at the data of an acceptable flyhalf like Catrakillis.   The situation is as follows:-

                           Catrakillis            Van Aswegen     Jantjies

Foxsport                    180                          46                   40

    Average                   18                         11,5                5,6

Test Rugby

    Average                 175                         85                    82

The fact is that in 2 games and 2 bench appearances Van Aswegen amassed more poins than Jantjies did in 5 games played and 2 bench apperances and he still has less points than Van Aswegen is indeed significant.   Fact is that Jantjies is the WORST FLYHALF any team in Super 15 fielded this year.    He produced roughly 50% less than Van Aswegen did in his very limited number of games.

Jantjies was the only flyhalf that managed to score minus points in any game played by any flyhalf in Super 15 on both Foxsport and Test Rugby.   He did that in the Bulls game.  

I think that Coetzee also saw stars in the sky when he insisted on signing up Jantjies and now at last realized that they made a terrible mistake.

Get real and see te facts and not dream on like you are doing at present.    My forecast as to where Jantjies will play in future remains.   He will not be contracted by WP for their CC squad - so he will go back to the Lions and may get to be their flyhalf - but that remains a big MAY.    No realistic future in SA rugby and likely never to get a contract to play in Europe or Japan.   As quick a come down and disaster than Earl Rose was - and that is a fact of life.

However - Jantjies has one thing in his favour - Meyer loves him as an acceptable BEE player.  I doubt it though if Meyer would ever play him in any team or even put him on the bench - it is far too dangerous for even him to contemplate.  

 Firstly I would blame AC for the stormers woes. Even when he was at the boks the back line never seem to function , it was only when Eddy joined that it started to work. I agree that back line players are to small and are often rucked off the ball, meaning there is nobody really that can break tackles in the wide channels. Apron was amazing when Nakalavuki played. He had the size to create space for Aplon. I would drop de Jong and bring back de Allende. But if you bring in some of the bigger players the team end up being to white. As for Jantjies the jury is still out. But then most of the SA teams seems to be struggling at the moment.

time to bring in younger talent.

Groom, Swiel, van Der heever, de allende, howard, jp du plesis. Aplon

Mike please dont insult my rugby intelligence with a bunch of worthless stats. Simple observation will tell you that v/Aswegen has been poor and way out of his depth. He is simply not S15 material. Jantjies is twice the player.

Rugnut, how about fuck off, does that help?

Saffex

Your intelligence is easily insulted.  Give me one flyhalf poorer than Jantjies in Super 15 then - and forget about Van Aswegen - becaue he only had two full games.    In any event stats over a number of games tell you what to expect from players and there is nothing one can expect from Jantjies - the poor version of Earl Rose.

Saffex

I did ask you a question aboove - but you did not give me a reply.  If as I think Jantjies was the worst flyhalf thus far  in Super 15 - why don't you give me the name of one with worse performances than Jantjies - who you always want in the Stromers team and even in the Springbok set-up.   Please prove me wrong by giving me a name of any flyhalf who played more than four games for his franchise that was worse than Jantjies and I will accept your opinion on the issue.  A name please and I will accept that I am wrong on the worst flyhalf story.

Simple answer Burton Francis..........and for the record, Lambie has hardly set the world alight and Jantjies is a better flyhalf than Catrakillis.

I dont pay much attention to the none SA sides. 

Saffex

So he beats Francis - a makeshift 10 because of injuries - and he is better than Catrakillis.   The latter is a joke - he is definitely not better than Catrakillis - who played a major positive role in the victories of the Kings this year.

And you imply that he is on par with Lambie - really who are you trying to kid here?   I expected Fracis wuld be your asnwer - but the rest really is mind blowing.   If you were reasonable I would not have responded at all.   

Mind you - you must be the only peson who rate Jantjies above Catrakillis in performance.

Seriously now - Dave - if you do not realise by now that Jantjies performances this year on the whole was totally inadequate and poor - there are serious question marks about objectivity on your part

I think unquestionable loyalty is for the mindless - and you have an ample supply of loyalty to players - even when they constantly under-perform.   

Mike stop speaking shit, Francis is not a makeshift flyhalf, he has played there all his life.

Jantjies is without doubt a better flyhalf than Catrakillis and right now Lambie is no better than Jantjies.

What is a dead cert is that Jantjies is far better than the piss poor v/Aswegen.......but I dont expect you to comprehend this basic fact

Saffex

I really am amazed about your comment.   If there is one thing that caused grieve for the Stormers it was the release of Catrakilis.

Can I ask you a serious question - what has Jantjies done this year to be placed on par with Lambie and above Catrrakillis.   You do not believe in stats because it does not support your unsubstantiated  and wildly irrational  statements on performance of players. 

If Van Aswegen is so piss-poor as you allege - why do you think that Coetzee prefer him to Jantjies.   Don't you think that the Stormers board is not putting pressure on Coetzee to keep Jantjies away from the playing field?   I think that Coetzee is under severe pressure about the Jantjies issue -

 *  firstly because he was instrumental in getting Jantjies to Cape Town; and

 *  secondly because of the massive financial settlement made in terms of the contract.  

If Coetzee persisits with Jantjies he is bound to be fired - so he is quite willing to dispose of him as a liability and not of any real value to the Stormers tewam.   The fact that Jantjies was put on the bench and never used after that flopped drop kick is an indication to me that after the current visit of the Stormers is over, the Jantjies phasing out programme  will increase in momentum and it is unlikely that after the June tests he woud ever be used by the Stormers - even from the bench 

Saffex - you really are being found out for what you really are and your delusions of grandeur are halarious.

clevermike, great points raised and a very valid opinion. I think that Jantjies has been exposed really badly and is battling to even appear in S15. He is definately not an International standard type player as some of your points above have highlighted. AC has his hands full on this one and this could be the beginning of the slow downward spiral towards the end of his job at WPRU. All Stormers supporters can view the decision to sign Jantjies as probably the worst move the 'management' have made for a very long time. There is no problem there, just admit it and move on and make another plan. Something 'mullet' aka Saffex could never do.

I am no fan of Jantjies. I did like him a few seasons ago, TBH. Having said that, I sometimes wonder what would have happened if he moved to one of the other franchises instead of signing with the Stormers. Is the issue not with the Stormers, rather than Jantjies? When last did he play for the Stormers? He hasn't played a lot, yet they are still shyte. Even worse than they were earlier when Jantjies was the regular flyhalf. Makes one think, doesn't it?

Jantjies better than Cat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Snapster you are loosing the plot with that one.

Very little to choose from between Cat and Lambie. Only Morne's tactical nous and experience get him ahead of these two at the moment.

windpomp I made the comment about the Stormers style not suiting Jantjies some time ago and again earlier today. But there is I believe a real concern in my view as to wether he has the rugby head. Hit and miss moves are not really what you want and his is defence leaves something to be desired.

To me Cat has a superb temprement and hardly puts a foot wrong match after match. Rock stead temprement. Great gutsy defence and excellent boot and distribution skills. I wouldnt be phased if he played for he Boks this year. He won us the Currie Cup last year and Allistair was crazy to let him go and spend a fortune on Jantjies when he already had Grant and Cat. Having let Cat go I hoped Jantjes could do a job for us. But thus far it has not worked.

Allistair has insisted on his microlight backline and that too has not worked - especially is what they are chiefly asked to do is defend. He has anumber of 100 kg backs at his disposal so no excuses for being so stubborn.

Yeah Cat is a nice solid little player but Jantjies is far more talented. Jantjies has not had time to settle at the Stormers and I am with Vlag on this. The Stormers have been worse since Jantjies got injured. The obvious reason being the very average v/Aswegen at 10 

Saffex

Got worse?   Jantjies was injured in a game where he made a complete ass of himself.   The Stormers beat the Hurricans in Jantjies absence and then could have beaten the Blues - but for an attmepted drop kick by jantjies that my granny would have made a better attempt than Jantjies did.   There was nothing wrong with Van Aswegen in both games - but your prejudice and one-eyed assessments made him look like he lost the games for the Stormers.   Useless drivel as per normal.

DomMike, why not just run us through Robinsons tackling stats you ignorant twat - for that made more sense than anything you have ever said.

It was even more accurate than Frans being 26 a good few weeks back - you lying twat

Saffex

I have not heard whether Steyn is back in SA after the operation - hope he is and is doing well.   He is 26 of age tomorow - so why don't you send him a message congratulating him on his birthday and wishing him a speedy recovery.

This thread is about Jantjies - not so?   What has that to do wit Robinson and Steyn?   Keep to the topic and don't go ballistic when your theories get punched holes into.   Jantjies on par with lambie- really a great joke.   Why don't you suggest the Sharks contract him and play him ahead of Lambie or to Sexton - that he must excahnge Catrakillis for Jantjies.  I think they would start laughing and treat it as a major joke by an ignorant prankster. 

 Would this be the same Steyn that you lied about regarding his age - yes it would be - about sums you up - pathetic liar

Saffex

You really are insufferable.  I admitted that when I checked to date of birth of Steyn  I misread it as  05 tand not 03.   I then apologized for the error and asked for forgiveness.   Now it is bac to your orginial diatibre.   Calm down - it was a genuine error on my part - not a deliberate lie.

The fact that I differ from you in player assessments does not make me a liar.   Now - lets get off hte insults and back to the Jantjies - Lambie and Catrakillis issue.   Still no comment about how Jantjies outplayed both Lambie and Catrakillis this season? 

 I'm not interested in debating rugby with you, you are too stupid