Howzit going guys, I'm new here, Shark and Springbok supporter!
If you were Meyer, what would be your Starting XV?
Newbie10 posts
10 Dec 2013, 01:42
#1
10 Dec 2013, 01:42#1
What would be you XV?
Started by Bokke8521 REPLIES2,209 VIEWS· 10 Dec 2013, 01:42
Captain30,741 posts
10 Dec 2013, 01:58
#2
10 Dec 2013, 01:58#2
Welcome 85.......injuries aside my Bok 23 would be:
15. Taute 14. JP 13. JJ 12. Serfontein 11. Willie 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Coenie 4. Etzebeth 5. Steph du Toit 6. Kolisi 7. CJ Stander 8. Vermeulen
16. A.Strauss 17. Kitshoff 18. Malherbe 19. Lood de Jager 20. Arno Botha 21. v/Zyl 22. Lambie 23. Frans Steyn
15. Taute 14. JP 13. JJ 12. Serfontein 11. Willie 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Coenie 4. Etzebeth 5. Steph du Toit 6. Kolisi 7. CJ Stander 8. Vermeulen
16. A.Strauss 17. Kitshoff 18. Malherbe 19. Lood de Jager 20. Arno Botha 21. v/Zyl 22. Lambie 23. Frans Steyn
Newbie10 posts
10 Dec 2013, 02:18
#3
10 Dec 2013, 02:18#3
Thanks Saffex!
I like Willie at fullback but when Habana/JP lose form or call it day then he'll be better on the wing.
For now I'm happy with Habana and JP, both put in a shift and offer good attacking outlets. It will be interested to see how Habana continues to age, as despite still being fast, he's not as rapid as he used to be!
I do think we need to start introducing some new players to the squad, especially looking at the incredibly talented pool of young players coming through, I wasn't happy to see Fourie back, although I think JDV had a good year. I'm pretty excited to see if Serfontein gets more game time, I think he's going to be a big player in the future.
I think once Goosen is back, he's a shoe in for fly half with Pat for me as back-up, I don't want Ruan or Morne near 9 or 10 again, I just don't think they have it anymore.
I'm quite happy with the current 6,7,8 but with the talent waiting in the wings, you can't argue with mixing it up, Duane is a definite starter!
Etzebeth is definite at 4, and it will be good to see PSDT at 5, and Beast and Bizmark (even Strauss is world class, spoilt for choice) are top draw, and Coenie is ever improving at 3.
It's good to see other people's views
I like Willie at fullback but when Habana/JP lose form or call it day then he'll be better on the wing.
For now I'm happy with Habana and JP, both put in a shift and offer good attacking outlets. It will be interested to see how Habana continues to age, as despite still being fast, he's not as rapid as he used to be!
I do think we need to start introducing some new players to the squad, especially looking at the incredibly talented pool of young players coming through, I wasn't happy to see Fourie back, although I think JDV had a good year. I'm pretty excited to see if Serfontein gets more game time, I think he's going to be a big player in the future.
I think once Goosen is back, he's a shoe in for fly half with Pat for me as back-up, I don't want Ruan or Morne near 9 or 10 again, I just don't think they have it anymore.
I'm quite happy with the current 6,7,8 but with the talent waiting in the wings, you can't argue with mixing it up, Duane is a definite starter!
Etzebeth is definite at 4, and it will be good to see PSDT at 5, and Beast and Bizmark (even Strauss is world class, spoilt for choice) are top draw, and Coenie is ever improving at 3.
It's good to see other people's views
Captain30,741 posts
10 Dec 2013, 03:05
#4
10 Dec 2013, 03:05#4
85 I like your way of thinking and I'd be more than happy to see Habana retained, but speed is a young man's game and the years are catching up with him.
I like Willie at 15, but in order to get the best 15 on the park, I'd play him on the wing to accommodate Taute at 15.
Jean had a good year, but Serfontein would have been even better. Bringing Fourie back at 13 was pathetic and regressive, particularly since JJ had ended so well at 13 in that last AB test.
If I was Bok coach, Morne would never have won a single cap under me - he is an average rugby player with a good boot. Pienaar has been poor for some time now.
I dont think Louw is an openside flanker at all, he is far too big and cumbersome for the role.....I prefer Kolisi, Brussouw and Fourie.
You are right, we have talent to burn, the list of talented youngsters is endless. Hell how can you not select a world beating side from:
Fullbacks: Taute, Willie, SP Marais, Visser, Andries Coetzee, Jessie Kriel, Ulrich Beyers, Sean Robinson
Wings: JP, Habana, v/d Heever, Kolbe, Sergel Petersen, Rhule, Volmink, Sithole, Mjekevu, Mapoe, Paul Jordaan, Senatla, Obi, Mvovo, Mastriet, Helberg
Centres: JJ, Serfontein, Frans Steyn, de Allende, Howard Mnisi, Pat Howard, Sadie, Ebersohn, JP du Plessis, Whitehead, Heimar Williams, Hanekom, Rohan Janse v/Rensburg, Dries Swanepoel, Tyler Fisher, Andries Esterhuizen, Small-Smith, de Jongh, Daniel Kriel, Kobus v/Wyk, Lindeque
Flyhalves: Goosen, Lambie, Jantjies, Swiel, Pollard, Catrakillis, Fouche, Zielanga
Scrumhalves: Hougaard, v/Zyl, Reinach, Schrauder, Groom, Paige
Props: Beast, Coenie, Kitshoff, Malherbe, Marcel v/d Merwe, Nkanyane, Frik Kirsten, Morne Mellett, Adriaanse, Herbst, Rossouw de Klerk
Hookers: Bismark, Strauss, Chiliboy, Ntumbeni, Callie Visagie, Cooper
Locks: Etzebeth, Flip, Steph du Toit, de Jager, Willemse, Jacques du Plessis, Quinn Roux, Ettienne Oosthuizen, Carl Wegner, Peet Marais, Jandre Marais, Ruan Botha, Bulbring, Bresler, Dennis Visser, Herbst, Lewies
Loosies: Vermeulen, Alberts, Louw, Arno Botha, Elstadt, Fourie, Carr, Rhodes, Kolisi, Labascagne, Brussouw, v/d Walt, Kriel, CJ Stander, Coetzee, Ntumbeni, Cook, Ross, Grant Hattingh, Daniel, Dewald Potgieter, Liebenberg
I like Willie at 15, but in order to get the best 15 on the park, I'd play him on the wing to accommodate Taute at 15.
Jean had a good year, but Serfontein would have been even better. Bringing Fourie back at 13 was pathetic and regressive, particularly since JJ had ended so well at 13 in that last AB test.
If I was Bok coach, Morne would never have won a single cap under me - he is an average rugby player with a good boot. Pienaar has been poor for some time now.
I dont think Louw is an openside flanker at all, he is far too big and cumbersome for the role.....I prefer Kolisi, Brussouw and Fourie.
You are right, we have talent to burn, the list of talented youngsters is endless. Hell how can you not select a world beating side from:
Fullbacks: Taute, Willie, SP Marais, Visser, Andries Coetzee, Jessie Kriel, Ulrich Beyers, Sean Robinson
Wings: JP, Habana, v/d Heever, Kolbe, Sergel Petersen, Rhule, Volmink, Sithole, Mjekevu, Mapoe, Paul Jordaan, Senatla, Obi, Mvovo, Mastriet, Helberg
Centres: JJ, Serfontein, Frans Steyn, de Allende, Howard Mnisi, Pat Howard, Sadie, Ebersohn, JP du Plessis, Whitehead, Heimar Williams, Hanekom, Rohan Janse v/Rensburg, Dries Swanepoel, Tyler Fisher, Andries Esterhuizen, Small-Smith, de Jongh, Daniel Kriel, Kobus v/Wyk, Lindeque
Flyhalves: Goosen, Lambie, Jantjies, Swiel, Pollard, Catrakillis, Fouche, Zielanga
Scrumhalves: Hougaard, v/Zyl, Reinach, Schrauder, Groom, Paige
Props: Beast, Coenie, Kitshoff, Malherbe, Marcel v/d Merwe, Nkanyane, Frik Kirsten, Morne Mellett, Adriaanse, Herbst, Rossouw de Klerk
Hookers: Bismark, Strauss, Chiliboy, Ntumbeni, Callie Visagie, Cooper
Locks: Etzebeth, Flip, Steph du Toit, de Jager, Willemse, Jacques du Plessis, Quinn Roux, Ettienne Oosthuizen, Carl Wegner, Peet Marais, Jandre Marais, Ruan Botha, Bulbring, Bresler, Dennis Visser, Herbst, Lewies
Loosies: Vermeulen, Alberts, Louw, Arno Botha, Elstadt, Fourie, Carr, Rhodes, Kolisi, Labascagne, Brussouw, v/d Walt, Kriel, CJ Stander, Coetzee, Ntumbeni, Cook, Ross, Grant Hattingh, Daniel, Dewald Potgieter, Liebenberg
Coach57,555 posts
10 Dec 2013, 06:00
#5
10 Dec 2013, 06:00#5
I also believe there are some players fetting a bit long in the tooth and like to look at talented players. However, I do not think that the long list of players mentioned by Saffex is really the way to look at players. Insofar as I am concerned players must first prove themselves on Super 15 level before they can be considered for higher selection.
The players to look out for in Super 15 are to my mind the following:-
15 Willie le Roux, Taute, Francois Steyn (I suspect White may not use him at center)
Wings : JP, Habana, Willie le Roux, Duhan van der Merwe (he is very young still and the Bulls may not use him yet)
Centers : Jean de Villiers, JJ, Serfontein, De Allende, Jordaan, Hanekom
Flyhalves : Goosen, Lambie, Swiel
Scrummies : Van Zyl, Reinach.
From the above it would be possible to select a very good backline - but I for one is not going to make a selection now - I would wait till May and see how things develop.
Insofar as the forwards are concerned, I frankly do not like our present loosie combination - it is unbalanced and cannot counter the loosie combination of for instance the AN's adequately. In Super 15 next year I would look at performances of the following:
Loosies : Vermeulen, Arno Botha, Labuschagne, Elstadt, Minnie. I think Louw is a given.
Locks : Etzebeth, Du Toit, Flip van der Merwe, De Jager, Willemse
Props : Beast, Du Plessis. Malherbe, Kitshof, Oosthuizen, Van der Merwe, Kirsten
Hookers : Bismarck, Strauss and Cooper.
I leave out Alberts as a loosie - because he never performs well in Super 15.
Captain30,741 posts
10 Dec 2013, 16:56
#6
10 Dec 2013, 16:56#6
Jake will definitely play Frans at 12, that is where he picked him as a Bok coach. Its the only position for Frans and a given really considering he is one of the best in the business and the Sharks have the impressive SP Marais who will play 15.
Newbie10 posts
10 Dec 2013, 17:26
#7
10 Dec 2013, 17:26#7
I see what you're both saying, and one thing that seems to be the overriding feeling among Springbok fans is that it's time to bed in some new blood to the squad. As you say, we have an incredible wealth of young players, who should be able to challenge in 2015. I personally believe if we get the team right with a mix of experience (Beast, Bismark, JP and Habana) and youngsters, we'll walk the world cup.
Don't get me wrong, I like Heyneke, he has got a lot passion and drive for the flag. Although, picking the old guard and turning back to Bakkies and Jaque (who were fantastic in their day, but over the hill now) is sending the wrong message to the youngsters who are playing well and hoping to break into the team. I understand he wants experience but in my opinion there's enough in the squad (Beast, Bismark, Jean, etc)
One thing Meyer does is get the best from the players he does pick, although it doesn't say much as he's picking the wrong players, so once he gets the selections right it's going to be a good era in bok rugby.
Don't get me wrong, I like Heyneke, he has got a lot passion and drive for the flag. Although, picking the old guard and turning back to Bakkies and Jaque (who were fantastic in their day, but over the hill now) is sending the wrong message to the youngsters who are playing well and hoping to break into the team. I understand he wants experience but in my opinion there's enough in the squad (Beast, Bismark, Jean, etc)
One thing Meyer does is get the best from the players he does pick, although it doesn't say much as he's picking the wrong players, so once he gets the selections right it's going to be a good era in bok rugby.
Coach57,555 posts
10 Dec 2013, 19:20
#8
10 Dec 2013, 19:20#8
Saffex
I hope Francois Steyn gets into some form next year. Since his return from France he was overweight, slow and not a centers backside. If he can get some better physical condition and switch on mentally - he may make the grade.
White is not going to pick him on the basis of reputation - he will have to perform. If he does not and carry on like he did since his return from France he would not last at center.
For Steyn the pre-season matches and especially the one against Saracens in London would be crucial. Hopefully that match would be televised and we will see what Steyn is capable of and the form he is in.
Captain30,741 posts
11 Dec 2013, 01:03
#9
11 Dec 2013, 01:03#9
Mike we have been over this, you dont have a clue what you are talking about. Frans was fine last year until he got injured and he was good in the CC. Only that fool Plumtree cocked it up and got sacked in the process.
Frans is one of our best players and his only spot is 12.........Frans was fine this year and was pretty impressive at times.
A fit Frans is a must for the Bok 23, he is a class act.......end of story and Jake knows that.
Frans is one of our best players and his only spot is 12.........Frans was fine this year and was pretty impressive at times.
A fit Frans is a must for the Bok 23, he is a class act.......end of story and Jake knows that.
Captain30,741 posts
11 Dec 2013, 01:12
#10
11 Dec 2013, 01:12#10
Spot on 85........Meyer needs to wake up and move forward. He needs to discard the likes of Kirchner, Aplon, Fourie, Morne, Pienaar, Steenkamp and Bakkies......stay away from Spies, Matfield, Juan Smith and Schalk.......and he needs to invest in our impressive pool of youngsters, lead by Tau te, Willie, JJ, Serfontein, Goosen, Lambie, Kitshoff, Coenie, Malherbe, Etzebeth, Steph du Toit, Kolisi, Coetzee, CJ Stander and Arno Botha.
We have a core of experience in Habana, JP, Frans, Jean, Hougaard, du Preez, Beast, Jannie, Bismark, Strauss, Chiliboy, Flip, Brussouw, Louw, Alberts and Vermeulen......this core should be supplemented with the best of our youngsters
We have a core of experience in Habana, JP, Frans, Jean, Hougaard, du Preez, Beast, Jannie, Bismark, Strauss, Chiliboy, Flip, Brussouw, Louw, Alberts and Vermeulen......this core should be supplemented with the best of our youngsters
Newbie10 posts
11 Dec 2013, 01:35
#11
11 Dec 2013, 01:35#11
Absolutely Saffex, pick your main stays in the squad such as Habana, Beast, Bismark, Eben, Duane, Louw, Jean, JP, etc and then surround them with the youngsters who have earned it.
Let Bakkies, Matfield, Ruan be written in the history books for what they achieved for the Boks but not tarnish their reputation now when they're clearly not as good as they were.
Unfortunately this trend of conservative picking seems to have affected The Proteas as well, with the picking of the 'old guard' and exclusion of youngster such as QDK and Marchant.
Anyway, we can only hope that Meyer sees that his team selections are not as good as they can be and starts picking the best of the younger generation. Let's win the the next RC and RWC for Madiba, let's put the Boks on top of the pile once more.
Let Bakkies, Matfield, Ruan be written in the history books for what they achieved for the Boks but not tarnish their reputation now when they're clearly not as good as they were.
Unfortunately this trend of conservative picking seems to have affected The Proteas as well, with the picking of the 'old guard' and exclusion of youngster such as QDK and Marchant.
Anyway, we can only hope that Meyer sees that his team selections are not as good as they can be and starts picking the best of the younger generation. Let's win the the next RC and RWC for Madiba, let's put the Boks on top of the pile once more.
Coach57,555 posts
11 Dec 2013, 01:35
#12
11 Dec 2013, 01:35#12
Saffex
Come now - fine when he was grossly overweight, unfit and slow? When he did nothing but crashball? At least Plumtree tried to get him back to a reasonable level of fitness - where he never got him to. You should know that this year in CC he played for the first time in months in one game. His contribution to the whole game was one decent tackle on De Allende - nothing more. If Meyer thought it was a half-decent performance he would have had him in his squad fir the EOYT
I agree that Steyn could be a valuable asset - but he was nothing of the sort over the last 18 months and that is an unfortunate fact. He should get to a reasonable level of fitness - up his speed - and forget the image he has that it is essential for him to crashball every ball he gets. Rugby is also a thinking game - and recently Steyn showed nothing in that regard.
Captain30,741 posts
11 Dec 2013, 01:45
#13
11 Dec 2013, 01:45#13
Yeah 85, the cricket test squad is very disappointing.............smacks of typical SA conservatism, which is the same trait holding Meyer back
Captain30,741 posts
11 Dec 2013, 01:48
#14
11 Dec 2013, 01:48#14
Mike your take on Frans as I said originally is just complete shit........much like the bullshit about Frans being unfit and overweight when he was playing. Fact is he lost all the weight by the time he started playing.
Frans showed many good touches, is always a handful in contact and we saw the odd step where he beat defenders......Frans was looking good
Frans showed many good touches, is always a handful in contact and we saw the odd step where he beat defenders......Frans was looking good
Newbie10 posts
11 Dec 2013, 01:50
#15
11 Dec 2013, 01:50#15
Let's hope it changes, small hopes of it in ODI squads with the dropping of Smith
So Saffex, where are you from in SA boet?
So Saffex, where are you from in SA boet?
Captain30,741 posts
11 Dec 2013, 02:14
#16
11 Dec 2013, 02:14#16
I am from Grahamstown, but have lived in England since 99. Where is home for you?
Newbie10 posts
11 Dec 2013, 03:42
#17
11 Dec 2013, 03:42#17
I'm currently in Umhlanga, Durban but was born in Westville. I lived in England for 10 years with my parents, England I lived in Essex, it didn't change me from my safa ways with fake tan, haha!
Where are you in England?
Where are you in England?
Captain30,741 posts
11 Dec 2013, 16:44
#18
11 Dec 2013, 16:44#18
I was originally in Essex, near Colchester, but am now on a farm in Suffolk, not that far from Ipswich.
Where in Essex did you live?
Pro6,277 posts
11 Dec 2013, 17:29
#19
11 Dec 2013, 17:29#19
re frans steyn
i thought he was overweight when he returned to the sharks, but i dont think his performance was bad, but not as good as it once was when he was lethal as a mofo, would still pick him in my team though.
if everyone was fit to pick, the No1 Bok team i woiuld start investing heavy game time with the RWC around the corner would be,,,
1 beast, 2 bizzy, 3 c oosthuizen
4 lady elizabeth, 5 stephanie du toit
6 s kolisi, 7 a botha, 8 d vermeulen
9 f hougaard, 10 p lambie
12 j serfontein, 13 jj englebrechett
11 w le roux, 14 j taute, 15 f steyn
16 a strauss, 17 s kitshoff, 18 f malherbe, 19 l de jager, 20 l labuschnage, 21 p van zyl, 22 j goosen, 23 JDV
this IMO is the Boks strongest 15 with players based in SA. i still have no idea why meyer continues to bring in the failed stars of yesteryear when like so many, i believe there is a wealth of options in SA, but que sera sera.
one problem i do see in my team is the role of the captain, JDV is an obvious choice, but i wouldnt pick him in my Boks team unless the Boks were playing the All Blacks, lolz.
and i wouldnt pick JDV over serfontein.
so do we do a 2011 RWC and bench the best hooker in the game smit for strauss and give strauss the captains armband??? unlike 2011, at least a strauss is prob the second best hooker in the world, so the Boks wouldnt lose too much in terms of quality, but as classy as strauss is, its still a step down from bizzy bone.
or do we look for another captain???
for some reason i can see vermeulen making a good captain, but that might be my vermeulen fanboy speaking. but with the likes of bizzy, f steyn in the team as part of a leadership group and JDV just on the bench, hes one player who could be a surprise candidate, he is the type of player who always plays well aka a leader who leads by example???
luckily for the All Black supporters, meyer dosent have this type of progressive thinking, otherwise we might have a real contest on our hands, instead of the one way street of wins weve had for two years running, :oP
i thought he was overweight when he returned to the sharks, but i dont think his performance was bad, but not as good as it once was when he was lethal as a mofo, would still pick him in my team though.
if everyone was fit to pick, the No1 Bok team i woiuld start investing heavy game time with the RWC around the corner would be,,,
1 beast, 2 bizzy, 3 c oosthuizen
4 lady elizabeth, 5 stephanie du toit
6 s kolisi, 7 a botha, 8 d vermeulen
9 f hougaard, 10 p lambie
12 j serfontein, 13 jj englebrechett
11 w le roux, 14 j taute, 15 f steyn
16 a strauss, 17 s kitshoff, 18 f malherbe, 19 l de jager, 20 l labuschnage, 21 p van zyl, 22 j goosen, 23 JDV
this IMO is the Boks strongest 15 with players based in SA. i still have no idea why meyer continues to bring in the failed stars of yesteryear when like so many, i believe there is a wealth of options in SA, but que sera sera.
one problem i do see in my team is the role of the captain, JDV is an obvious choice, but i wouldnt pick him in my Boks team unless the Boks were playing the All Blacks, lolz.
and i wouldnt pick JDV over serfontein.
so do we do a 2011 RWC and bench the best hooker in the game smit for strauss and give strauss the captains armband??? unlike 2011, at least a strauss is prob the second best hooker in the world, so the Boks wouldnt lose too much in terms of quality, but as classy as strauss is, its still a step down from bizzy bone.
or do we look for another captain???
for some reason i can see vermeulen making a good captain, but that might be my vermeulen fanboy speaking. but with the likes of bizzy, f steyn in the team as part of a leadership group and JDV just on the bench, hes one player who could be a surprise candidate, he is the type of player who always plays well aka a leader who leads by example???
luckily for the All Black supporters, meyer dosent have this type of progressive thinking, otherwise we might have a real contest on our hands, instead of the one way street of wins weve had for two years running, :oP
Newbie10 posts
11 Dec 2013, 22:38
#20
11 Dec 2013, 22:38#20
I lived about 30 minutes away from Colchester in Braintree. Sounds good, come back to South Africa much?
And I agree Sasuke, Meyer can make some serious improvements with regards to selection. Once we start to use our youth, will be the day that the Springbok era properly cracks on. I'd much rather be in our position of having the best selection pot but picking the wrong things at the moment with room to get that right than not have the options that we do. I suppose only time will tell though!
And I agree Sasuke, Meyer can make some serious improvements with regards to selection. Once we start to use our youth, will be the day that the Springbok era properly cracks on. I'd much rather be in our position of having the best selection pot but picking the wrong things at the moment with room to get that right than not have the options that we do. I suppose only time will tell though!
Captain30,741 posts
12 Dec 2013, 01:09
#21
12 Dec 2013, 01:09#21
I know Braintree my rugby club played against them, well the B team did. No, I dont come home that often, have explored the rest of what's out there but plan on going home in the new year sometime
Captain30,741 posts
12 Dec 2013, 01:14
#22
12 Dec 2013, 01:14#22
Sas, your line of thinking is along my lines.......like your side. Great rugby minds think alike. Your side is practically my side except for you having JDV and Labascagne, whereas I have JP and Coetzee.
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