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FORUM / RUGBY /  When the Boks, the A team and the Junior Boks all lose....

When the Boks, the A team and the Junior Boks all lose....

Started by Mozart22 REPLIES470 VIEWS· 13 Jun 2016, 07:17
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jun 2016, 07:17
#1
13 Jun 2016, 07:17#1
....over one weekend, to a weakened Irish team, the English B team and Argentina, something is amiss. And no it's not just Coetzee.....favored coach Ackerman had the A team.
For a long time I have maintained we have a small cadre of world class players, not enough for 4 teams as we often see on here. That small cadre has often been attacked by fans and is now substantially gone. That leaves us with even narrower resources and the need to be precise in our selections. We can't afford the JJ, Step, Allende, Kriel sequences......which still leaves us with zero proven international centre.

There needs to be far more critical review of new players and a better apprenticeship. Play a good game and Bok colors are in view. That doesn't happen in NZ.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jun 2016, 07:20
#2
13 Jun 2016, 07:20#2
 This is what the much maligned Keo has to say on the subject. In this case I think his honesty is refreshing. The hype is in the way of finding robust solutions to our many rugby issues:

' The reality of Springbok rugby is very different to the perception created through warped patriotism and a support base that seemingly never forgets the highs in the history of Springbok rugby and never remembers the many lows.

Coetzee took a decision to reward South African Super Rugby form and (with the exception of Bath’s Francois Louw and Toulon’s Duane Vermeulen) picked a match 23 exclusive to South African-based players.

There is an ignorant belief among too many that Springbok rugby does not need the playing qualities of the many world-class South African players abroad.

Meyer, in 2014, realised the folly of this view. He picked only locally-based players for the last Test of the season against Wales in Cardiff. The Boks lost 12-6.

South African rugby simply does not have the depth among the six South African franchises to consistently boast a top-three Springbok standing. It needs to tap into every resource.

Coetzee wasn’t wrong in his identification of which players had Super Rugby form, but he was also picking from a limited base given only the Lions (out of six South African franchises) feature in the top six league standings of the tournament.

Our overall Super Rugby challenge has for some time been dismal. Why would those who have failed in Super Rugby be any different playing as Springboks?

The ignorant view is that transformation is killing the Springboks' global standing. History tells us a different story because since 1891 the Boks have lost 37% of their 445 Tests played.

And since 2007, which coincides with the golden generation of the 2007 World Cup winners and series winners against the British & Irish Lions and Tri-Nations champions in 2009, the Boks winning percentage is even worse at 61.

The Boks against Ireland at Newlands were awful but there have been worse days and in the future no doubt there will be worse days.

Ireland was without several of their regular starting side, most notably flyhalf Johnny Sexton. They should have been competitive but they should not have been expected to win.

Hence the inquest on the 23 who played, Coetzee’s match strategy and the player implementation of a strategy that was not good enough to win, despite a 50-minute numerical advantage.

There has to be acknowledgement of the rugby frailties and accurate assessment of the player quality.

The Springboks simply aren’t as good as we think – and haven’t been for a long time.

Blame referees, blame transformation, blame politicians, blame coaches, blame whatever you want, but ours is still a country whose people largely don’t engage in discussion, debate and analysis.'

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
13 Jun 2016, 07:34
#3
13 Jun 2016, 07:34#3
 Good article Moz but I'm of the opinion that SA teams will do better as the year advances. I say this because these national teams were pulled together for the first time & were playing teams that have been together longer. Plus, the Boks have a new coach & new system. It can only get better. We will see if better is good enough to win though. At that point we will have clarity on if it is what I'm saying is the problem or if there is a more systemic problem in SA rugby.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
13 Jun 2016, 07:53
#4
13 Jun 2016, 07:53#4
 "Why would those who have failed in Super Rugby be any different playing as Springboks?"
Bang on, going back to the euphoria of the Lion's success I did say our rugby had a long way to go and that our backline play was non existent although many insisted we had tons of talent. How can it be possible to fail and be hopelessly exposed at franchise level to expect  the Boks to be successful at international level?......dream on.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
13 Jun 2016, 08:50
#5
13 Jun 2016, 08:50#5
 Post 2003 and 2007 NZ rugby took a long hard look at themselves starting with the culture change after the infamous kangaroo courts post match .Look at how it is now when Hansen has no problem dropping players no matter their past stature if it advances the team .And gradually bringing in players like Ardie Savea when its neccessary and fast tracking guys like NMS shows flexibility and vision.I firmly beleive that not ever picking players who go to the NH is always the way to go ,rarely does a player improve after playing in Europe and guys who put the team ahead of money are worth the weight .
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
13 Jun 2016, 09:08
#6
13 Jun 2016, 09:08#6
South Africans in general have developed a loser mentality. Accepting that mediocrity is okay. Always looking forward to some miracle that is just on the horizon that will turn it all around. It is not going to happen! There is just this negativity in South Africa, and it comes through every sphere of life here. It starts with a corrupt president and ruling party and ends with a hopeless country.  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jun 2016, 11:10
#7
13 Jun 2016, 11:10#7
"I firmly beleive that not ever picking players who go to the NH is always the way to go ,rarely does a player improve after playing in Europe and guys who put the team ahead of money are worth the weight ."

@Wardad. It isn't that simple. Really, it isn't. There are 200+ South Africans playing all over the world. That is a fact. Probably 90% of those players are white, if not more than 90%. Most, if not all of them, know that the day that they leave the SA shores, they are virtually writing of the hopes of playing for the Boks. Why? Simple. It is a known fact that the player playing in SA have the inside lane. In addition, those 200+ players have to compete, with the other white players in SA, for approximately 15 spots in the 2019 RWC squad. If you were one of those players who has to make a choice between earning big money playing abroad in a tiny chance to play for a Bok side under a coaching team with dubious credentials and at the annoyance of a large part of the population, then which one would you choose.
It is one thing saying "I am a massive patriot and I will put my body on the line for my country" when, in reality,  a large part of the population are p1ssed off with the fact that you, as one of those with the fairer complexion, is even in the team.
Let me tell you something. I haven't been in SA for almost six years and I still have contact with a lot of South Africans. Five/six years ago a lot of people were telling me that things were difficult but bearable, that I should probably go back, that things should improve, etc,etc, etc. I haven't spoken to one single person in the last four years who have not told me to stay the hell away and that they would p!ss off if it was at all possible.

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
13 Jun 2016, 11:31
#8
13 Jun 2016, 11:31#8
 Take their advice, Ceradyne.
This country is a second rate sh!t hole. It's regressing everyday.
Wish I was elsewhere.
I'm working on it ... 
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
13 Jun 2016, 11:51
#9
13 Jun 2016, 11:51#9
 CC I thought you were in Australia ? Victoria ? Ceradyne thats what I mean by the fans mentality for good or ill seeping through to the team ,as I said todays young fans are tomorrows Boks.Its a hard choice I know but look at the huge money those bas.tards up north wave at the Kiwi players too .A hard choice I know but if someone says "stuff it I'm in it to win it " you know hes going to give you all he's got eh ?Has the Spring Bok Jersey lost its pull ? Does it not have that proud history and tradition imbued into its fabric and stitching ? Look at how guys like Nonu and ,Messam ,Kaino and Read for example seem to just power up when they pull that Black Jumper on .Maybe you need to start from a team of the unfancied and the greenest of green newbies with just the solid core of those still worthy ,you never know do you ? Like that moneyball thingy .
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jun 2016, 12:16
#10
13 Jun 2016, 12:16#10
 "A hard choice I know but if someone says "stuff it I'm in it to win it " you know hes going to give you all he's got eh ?"
The question is this. Would he say the same when he knows that he does not have the full backing of even the so-called most patriotic of the patriotic? You have seen how easily South Africans turn on their own, and it is not on this forum only. All of these die hard supporters are nothing but fair-weather friends. All of them. They say that they support their team through thick and thin, but they don't. The only coach who had they "full backing" of the SA supporters in the last two decades was Kitch Christie and that was also just because he wasn't around long enough to have a slip or two. When last, if ever, have the NZ coaches and team not had the full support and backing of the NZ rugby supporters?
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
13 Jun 2016, 13:18
#11
13 Jun 2016, 13:18#11
 Come now, Ceradyne ... that's not fair at all.
You cannot in all honesty compare the NZ fan with the SA fan. Situations are completely different in our countries. You need to compare apples with apples.
Firstly, does the NZRU select players based on race?
Do they favour one race over another?
Have they insisted that each race be represented on the sporting field no matter their competency?
Do they not select their teams on merit?
How about their coaches? 
When last have you heard of a bad New Zealand coach running the All Blacks?
Would they be as competitive as they are (in all sports) if they adopted the SA racist policies?
Bottom line ... they teach their people ... all their people ... a set of skills from a very young age ... without discrimination ... without a racist agenda ... and from these youngster stars are born.
This is not the case in South Africa. The government in this country promotes racism ... promotes an anti white sentiment ... as best they can ... and are too damn lazy to do anything for themselves ... for their race. They want everything to be handed to them ... 
That my dear friend is the difference between our two nations.
The one nation stands united, with a common cause ... while the other is divided by racism and bitterness. 
It will never change. 






 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jun 2016, 13:24
#12
13 Jun 2016, 13:24#12
 

The above is as superficial as it comes and not a real evaluation of the situation.   Obviously it is music to the ears of Mozart – but is it really the case?  

First of all there are a number of issues to be addressed in any evaluation of the situation and these are the following:-

The lacklustre performance of the Senior players

 The senior players in the team – those with 20+ tests showed an amazing degree of lack of interest in playing.  This was evident n the performances of  especially Vermeulen, Louw, Etzebeth,Strauss and Pietersen.   Anybody would have expected leadership and effort on the part of that core – but it was curiously absent and none made a real contribution to performance.

Most of the penalties were in fact given away by the above players and ball possession retention by them was non-existent.  There was a serious absence of any contribution by the loose forwards.

Pietersen was a joke – a serious one at that.  The fact is that he has deficient pace and that was clear from his near walk when he collected a kicked ball and ambled forward in ultra-slow in carrying the ball.

Under-performance of Players

There was a serious level of under-performance by some players – De Jager was not a shadow of the player he was last year and was ever of any consequnnce during the game.  Malherbe did well in scrumming  and put in more tackles than Vermeulen and Louw – but gave away two penalties, which was seriously defective on his part.  He showed some interest in playing the game and the deficiencies of the other forwards in showing no enthusiasm in the game was probably to blame for his penalties.

The Merit selection of Players

There  was a serious issue as to merit selections.   Players like Jantjies and Mapoe were selected purely on merit – while players like Kolisi and Nyakane was part of the BEE selections.    Both Jantjies and Mapoe were excellent playing for the Lions his year – but they seems to be unable to make the step up to the next level.   Jantjies looked like a scared rabbit in the headlights and made some really poor decisions during the game – he made one good pass leading to the Mvovo try – for the rest his performance was seriously negative.  Furthermore Jantjies’ defense was basically non-existing.    

Mapoe never featured at all and he was really not of any value.  Can this player take the step up from Super Rugby to test rugby – I have my doubts.   Maybe he should be utilized on the wing.

Kolisi carried the ball a few times – but lost ball possession in two cases because of no support by players.   However, he never was a real loosie covering other aspects of loosie play and in 2016 he was as a result frequently on the Stormers bench.   He has no idea of loosie play and is of limited use in defense and non-existent insofar as ball protection and recovery is concerned.

Nyakane was a product from the previous coach and his contribution was virtually non-existent when he came from the bench.

The absence of a game plan  

There was a serious deficiency in a game plan and the existence of the Meyer plan – ie to cut out the backline and with forwards loitering in the backline was evident.   Far too often there was serious disruption of the game by forwards losing ball possession while loitering in the backline.  

There was no plan in evidence – much like the c ase was under Meyer and while Coetzee was the Stormers coach over the past few years.   The absence of proper backline coaching is another problem – but for some the backline is there to defend and any backline attack is a mortal rugby sin.

Proper coaching of the payers and the backline in particular played a major role in the loss of the game.

The “A” Team and Under 20 Team

These two teams were a joke – merit selection was out and the whole scenario was based on BEE selections.  The two teams were not representing the better selections so necessary to enhance performance of SA teams.  

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Jun 2016, 14:13
#13
13 Jun 2016, 14:13#13

Actually if you had watched the A team game you will have realised that the Bok A side was by far the best side on the field. They lost thanks to the inept performance by April at 10 and the two intercept passes that lead to tries against the run of play. We wont mention the quota, but we did have 9 players of colour starting!!


No excuse for the Irish loss, that was thanks to a coach giving the side no direction at all


As for the quota loaded Baby Bok side, its just a poor side as are all the sides in the tournament.....worst Oz, NZ and England sides I have seen in years. 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jun 2016, 14:15
#14
13 Jun 2016, 14:15#14
 "You cannot in all honesty compare the NZ fan with the SA fan. Situations are completely different in our countries. You need to compare apples with apples."
Correct CC, and I mentioned it in my previous post as well. Fact is that all of the points that you have mentioned are facts. Indisputable facts. Only problem is that the SA rugby supporter pulls out of backing the team and the players every time. The coach, for instance, is always the biggest doos around. Maybe it is only human to take it out on those closest. The real culprits, the cnuts in govt and at SARU are too removed... too distant and almost untouchable. It is easier to attack the players, who have not chosen themselves and the coaching team, who have also not appointed themselves.
Having said that, I have always backed the coach and the team but I have also now reached the point where I am saying "Fcuk them". If they win, then fine. If they lose... shit happens. Move on. I am way beyond chewing my wrists when things turn to sh!t. It is only a game, after all. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jun 2016, 14:41
#15
13 Jun 2016, 14:41#15
 I think Bloo has hit the nail on the head. We will win again, probably this Saturday....but these losses to nothing teams will continue until we build a new team that accepts nothing except victory.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
13 Jun 2016, 15:28
#16
13 Jun 2016, 15:28#16
 It will take a huge effort for Coetzee to turn things around, nothing but a win will suffice. Next Saturday will tell us whether he can coach.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jun 2016, 15:37
#17
13 Jun 2016, 15:37#17
 Nah Denny, we saw this picture under PdV, the players will take things into their own hands.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
13 Jun 2016, 15:52
#18
13 Jun 2016, 15:52#18
 There's a difference, PDV had a solid group of experienced players.......Manne. Coetzee has zip. I think his first mistake was to make Strauss captain, his second is his choice of backline coach......we need to see some positives. The forwards need to ramp up bigtime.....he can do himself a favour by dropping Lood to the bench.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
13 Jun 2016, 16:21
#19
13 Jun 2016, 16:21#19
 Denny, agree with your take on Strauss, but Alistair did not get to pick his backline coach. I think he braught in Proudfoot and SARU picked the rest. A coach can make a few tactical adjustments in a short time, but real coaching is a continuous, and longer process. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jun 2016, 16:31
#20
13 Jun 2016, 16:31#20
 Which starters have we lost since the WC semi? Habana, Pollard, F du Preez, Bismarck, Schalk....all slated by our Board wise men. 
But surely a core of Willie, JP, Kriel, Allende in the backs
And Beast, Malherbe, Etzebeth, Lomp, Louw and Vermeulen among the forwards
...is enough?
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
13 Jun 2016, 16:59
#21
13 Jun 2016, 16:59#21
 Should have been enough....but sh!t happe ns.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Jun 2016, 17:04
#22
13 Jun 2016, 17:04#22

Forget Louw, he is a passenger and Vermeulen needs to find form very quickly


The core should be Willie, JP, Lambie and Hougaard in the backs........with Bismark, Strauss, Etzebeth, Coetzee and Vermeulen in the forwards


Add the likes of Serf, Pollard, Kriel, de Allende, Nyakane, Malherbe and Lood who have had good exposure to test level

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jun 2016, 18:52
#23
13 Jun 2016, 18:52#23
 "Add the likes of Serf, Pollard, Kriel, de Allende, Nyakane, Malherbe and Lood who have had good exposure to test level"
Fixed.
— END OF THREAD —

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