Where are the wings?

We seem to have considerable (if unproven) depth at centre....also at flyhalf, lock and loosie.  The one position we have not turned over since before RWC07 ....is wing. Habana and JP are still miles ahead of any other candidates.

Now admittedly the Provincial  Idiot wanted to drop Habana a year ago, but that's just silly...nobody took that seriously. And certainly Bryan and Jean were the core of our backline last year.

So what of the newbies and why haven't they progressed?

Well there is Hougaard, more of a wing than a scrummie. But after a dynamic start to his test career on the wing, he was less dynamic last year. He seemed to have slowed , at least mentally. And his tackling, which was faultless in 2011, was less so in 2012. He appears to be another of our rootless utility backs.

Mvovo was favoured by some....but for the students of the game, his performance against the Saders at Twickenham a few years back, raised serious questions. Questions with flashing lights after his timid performance in the early tests in 2012. Right now he looks like a slower Nokwe

Rhule has yet to play top level rugby, so perhaps he will emerge. Have to see it though, before  we can be sure.

I suppose we have to forget about van den Heever, plying his trade from the Stormers bench. He is certainly one backline player who hasn't prospered with the move from the Bools to the Stormers. But he has all the equipment....speed, strength and a dangerous step. What appears to have gone awol, is confidence. He shuffles around without conviction. What a shame I still remember the brilliant 85 m run for a Bools try two years back.

For the rest, what  I've seen doesn't  strike me as international level, let alone capable of challenging the big two.

We dont have much depth a wing and fullback, all our other positions are covered.

JP is one of the best wings in the game and at 26 or so, still has years left in him. Habana was poor at times last year but recovered to show he still had a bit left in the tank. He is a year older now, so time will tell - I reckon his days are numbered.

Ignorant Moffie has it wrong regarding Hougaard, he is no wings backside and will play 9 for the Bulls and Boks this year - too talented not to prove the stupid Bok coach wrong. Note he is playing 9 on the weekend Mofkop.

Mvovo remains a quality wing, his strike rate in last years S15 was amongst the best of the wings in the comp. Rhule looks the best of the youngsters, he has Bok written all over him. v/d Heever rediscovered his early promise and should start for the Stormers this year. Mapoe is better suited to wing than centre and is a real threat with ball in hand.

It will be good to see a return to the early form shown by Sithole and Mjekevu of the Sharks. Sithole's try for the Blitzboks is still one of the best I have seen.

The two Lions youngsters Volmink and Helberg looked promising last year. Willie le Roux of the Cheetahs has shuffled between wing and fullback and is a quality player

Then there are some of the centre prospects that have had plenty of game time on the wing like JJ, Jordaan, de Allende, JP du Plessis and Howard

JJ on the wing.....at last the de Fattus train is in reverse. Welcome to where the smart money has been from the start. The only question now is, can he save his damaged career.

Moffie I know you are stupid, but you might want to note that I said some of the centre prospects like JJ have played wing - ie he is a centre who can play wing, much like Lambie is a fullback who can play flyhalf or Taute is a centre who can play fullback - get it liar.

You sent that e-mail to Beenkop and Denny yet begging them to lie for you - just a pity that list will extend to the likes of Mike, Jal, Becs, Hawk, Capone and the likes - keep running low life - let me know when you run out of nails!!

De Fattus I have addressed your property on the appropriate string.......this is about wings. But your take that Lambie is a fullback playing flyhalf and JJ is a centre playing wing is quite funny, I must admit.

Mozart

I do believe that we have a number of wings that can start showing improvement.   The problem is having two dominating wings for a number of years now - the others get less exposure - so w do not get to know their real value.

I think your assessment of Mvovo was influenced by a serious error he made in the Aussie test.   However, he did play well in Super 15.   Still very young he is developing further and may surprise you as yet.   Rhule made some foul ups in the Junior WC - but seems to have overcome his deficiencies in playing for the Cheetahs.   At 20 - really a player with substantial future potential.

In other respects there are problems in usage of players.   When Engelbrecht started  off his career he was playing on the wing - he was extremely promising.   Then he signed the Bulls contract and since the Bulls have had problems att center - he was moved to center - where he failed regularly.    I think he may be a different player on the wing.  and he will also improve if played at wing.

To move players into different positions from where they really made their mark never really works - unless you are dealing with exceptionally rare multi-talented players..   Saffex loves the system of juggling good players around - I really believe it is not an answer to anything.

I hate tto raise this - but one thing is for sure - the wing situation is often enough the area where quota selections take precedence.   I think that we were very lucky to have two "Black" players of the quality of   Pietersen amd Habana around - and they are likely to be replaced by "Black" players.when they actuually leave the scene.  

So Moffie where has Lambie played most of his test rugby? Where did JJ spend all of last season?

Its immaterial whether Lambie is a fullback playing flyhalf or a flyhalf playing fullback - he is equally adept at both. Same applies to JJ at 13 or on the wing - get it dumbo?

The first thing is, players have to want to play the position....Lambie doesn't want to play fullback he wants to play 10....Pienaar never wanted to play 10, he wanted to play 9.....Taute doesn't want to play centre he wants to play 15. You think it's wise to force these guys to  play positions that they don't want.....I think that tends to be a loser.

The next thing is the player has to be competent in his chosen position. For all I know JJ may want to play centre....but he flat can't. So then he does need some brain washing to accept his second choice......but it's not ideal. 

Oh what complete hogwash - at test level you play players where you need them to play and any 21 year old would be jumping over hoops to be selected as a Bok.

If Lambie was told that he is to play 15 for the good of Bok rugby, the kid would grab that opportunity with both hands - Lambie is equally good at 10 or 15, so it would make no difference at all where he settled as a Bok.

Why on earth would you want Lambie at 10, when you have Goosen?

As for JJ, given you know stuff all about what constitues a centre, your take on his is as uninformed as ever. There is a reason he came from nowhere in one season and won a cap for the Boks off the bench - its called talent. If quite apparent that you did not watch his performances at 13 during last years S15 - actually you probably did see then but as per usual your rugby ignorance, in particular centre ignorance, shines bright

Saffex

If that message is addressed to me - I can only say bullshit.   I did watch Engelbrecht play at 13 - and he was barely satisfacory in the S15 games - watched him in particular since you always punted him.   In all the games he played - he did in fact made two really noticeable plays - but both ended in the normal crashball situation.

Yes -- he was selected for the Boks squad - but that was at a stage that you only had to have a Bulls contract to get into the squad.  He even was on the bench for a few games - came on for a few minutes - Meyer looked at him durring training and after those few minutes experiment - sent him packing.  Meyer did not see him as good enough to recall him to the squad.

Engelbrecht then was given an opportunity to prove his credentials and showed that Meyer was wrong.   He was in the Bulls team for the remainder of th CC season he did squat - and in the Bulls games against WP and the Sharks he was not average as in the other games - he was a bloody disaster.  Both Jordaan and JP du Plessis outplayed him comprehensively.   Can any reasonably objective person says he is at present a Springbok selection candidate - the answer is ZERO - NO - ZILCH. 

Now lets get back to the center issue - you still maintain centers are there to crashball constantly and predictably - since those who did so constantly - and sometimes very unsuccessfully - get praised to high heaven by you for doing exactly that and nothing more.   That be it - Francois Steyn is your number 1 pick at center and is above reproach - even hough he virtually always crashballed and failed to pass balls effectively - draw in defenders - off-load balls effectively - leave alone even remotely thinkng of making line breaks l- and run at speed with the ball in hand - all the potential weapons a center can use nowadays in the tight defensive environment they play in.   That being the case Steyn showed nothing that makes him an automatic Springbok selection at all.

Now lets look at Serfontein and De Allende - they did crashball - but they also use all the other tricks in the trade very effectively.     That is why I say that they are real centers - and shows the difference between them and Steyn who at this stage has a long way to go to prove that he will be successful in future as a center..   Serfontein and De Allende showed all the required talents a center should possess - Steyn in 2012 showed nothing but his ability to crashball.    I at this stage would prefer either of them in the Springbok backline ahead of the one-dimentional donkey you at present punt so strongly.

Both Steyn and Engelbrecht has a lot of opportunity in Super 15 this year to prove that they are indeed centers of quality - if they fail, they must never be selected to play for the Springbok backline - that is unless we still prefer to be suffering from the dead backline syndrome - which you apparently think is the only game in town.

By the way I am putting Jordaan in as a banker in my fantasy teams - and he would give me ample points.  When Serfontein and De Allende play at 12 for the Bulls and Stormers respectively - they will also be in - I will trade another center and bring them in as well.   Steyn and Engelbbrecht - never, they will fail in that game as well.

"Where are the wings?"

Sounds like the kind of question Moffie's mother would have asked many years ago when she found the butterfly he'd been playing with.

Dave, as you know, I was out of contact with the boards for a while, can you tell me when Moffie did this big 180 degree turnaround on JP Pietersen? The last time I saw Moffie talking about JP he was ridiculing him and calling him slow and talentless. Any idea what changed the old fool's mind?

snaspet what email are you possibly referring to because I certainly didnt get one. Crash goes that slur.

I cant see we are short in any backline position.What we are short on is how to get it all together. Meyer improved the team last year against all odds and I am hoping for an incremental improvement this year. Thats how he works as his track record withthe bulle shows so its not an unreasonable expectation.

Provided our franchise coaches rotate properly (and injuires are kept in check), as they all seem to be promising to do, we should have a very good international season.

Lambie is more suited to flyhalf than fullback and one believes the same of Taute re fullback. Both are playing where they want to and that is on track at last.

So much said but yet again no substance at all.

I now regret going in and reading this post.

The title of the thread is ...  "Where are the Wings?" ... did you miss that Beenie??

No I did not as 85% of my response indicates. Snapsters seems to be talking of a non existent email and needed to be told the was howling at the moon.

Stop being a  servile gimp capone! Bwahahhahahahaha your regret breaks my heart. You should have regretted it when you read all that other stuff before shedding tears about my post.

My post goes to the guts of the issue - the talent is there and we need to put it together and get it operating. There are no lack of wings etc in my opinion.

No use getting grumpy just because ou rooitwits chess programme is giving you a hiding  I warned you about playing chess with him.    

Looks like Dave doesn't feel any pressure to answer your dumb question RooiAAS....it seems your toady status doesn't ensure any instant service.

Jal, Moffie spends his life knocking our players, yes JP had his turn, a proven test star - currently its Frans Steyn, this ignorant twat reckons Frans is not worthy.

But nothing will ever beat this dimwits call on Fourie as a test centre

Not even your call for Greyling?

Agreed, Dave. Moffie is the only person I know who thinks Jaques Fourie is crap and his constant belittling of a great Springbok with the best strike rate in the modern era is honestly one of the stupidest stances I've seen from someone who professes to know even the basic fundamentals of rugby.

Chuck in things like the fact that Moffie doesn't even know what a Grand Slam is, his ridiculous bias against young players and his laughable ideas on tackling (like the "plant-rush" defence) and you have to wonder if this idiot ever played even 5 minutes of rugby in his life.

But at least I picked the Boks to win RWC07 hey, unlike you and the Sapp.....and my little Hal model cleaned your clock. But dream on it's probably best that you deny reality a bit in your hurt state.

Moffie, you're always gloating about these alleged victories that only ever happened in your very fertile little imagination yet you continue to dodge actual competitons like the various Fantasy Rugby comps or Superbru.

If you want to prove a point about your rugby knowledge as opposed to mine then man up and start making actual predictions instead of having a pathetic little pop at other people who are prepared to make actual predictions or player selections. I'm a Fantasy Rugby and Superbru regular and I always have been. My predictions and player selections are there for all to see . . . unlike yours which always seem to happen AFTER the fact. Wehe.

Don't worry Moffie, you can relax, I don't really expect you to enter something that might expose your extremely limited rugby knowledge. I know you're a gutless coward who likes to talk himself up but always ducks a real challenge. You just keep telling your Servile Gimps how wonderful you are and I'm quite sure they'll keep stoking your fragile little ego. That's the kind of obsequious adulation we all know you thrive on . . . rather than these nasty old competitions that keep score and actually measure predictions and/or your knowledge of players.

(Cue some pathetic excuse about not having the time or not getting enough TV coverage!)

No thanks, I built the Hal model....got 19 out of 20 right in the SH test season....that was enough for me. You got 16 as I recall.

Moffie, I have no idea who this Hal model is you're talking about . . . I'm guessing he's the least repulsive looking person whose dick you've sucked . . . but I really don't want to know the names of all your boyfriends. I'm not trying to be rude, it's just that I couldn't give a rat's arse. Sorry.

Yawn....same old, same old.