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Where does Frans fit?

Started by Mozart18 REPLIES336 VIEWS· 22 Apr 2014, 18:00
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Apr 2014, 18:00
#1
22 Apr 2014, 18:00#1

It's obvious....he is a flyhalf and the natural successor to Butch James and Honibal. He is the only player we have at 10 capable of carrying the ball into the massive traffic the RWC will have as norm. If we don't choose Frans, we wont have lightweight runners like Swiel or Goosen, we will have kickers like Lambie, Boshoff or Morne. And in that sense we will be a well read book. That's my view here is another from 365:

 

Where does Frans fit?

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:03

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A rather pleasant headache

One of the toughest decisions facing Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer this year is where to play the Swiss army knife of South African rugby - Frans Steyn.

Steyn has always been something of an enigma since he burst onto the Springbok frame in 2006 as a freakishly talented 20-year-old who believed he could do just about anything he wanted with a rugby ball.

Having made his debut on the wing and featuring at inside centre at two World Cups, Steyn has played in every backline position for the Boks except scrumhalf in the course of his 53 Test caps.

Since his return to the Sharks from France in 2012 Steyn has spent most of his time on the sidelines through injury, but this year under his old mentor Jake White he is looking fit and hungry.

White has used him mainly at inside centre for the Sharks, although he has impressed in his cameos at flyhalf when Pat Lambie and Fred Zeilinga got injured, and his booming boot adds another dimension no matter what position he plays.

Although some may say that he is not the player he once was, with increased age and size making him a far more direct player who relies heavily on his physicality rather than guile, one person who should be getting quite excited is Meyer.

The Springbok coach certainly values the qualities that Steyn has to offer, but will have to do some serious thinking about where the versatile former 'wunderkind' fits into his team.

Perhaps the most impressive aspect of Steyn's game this year has been his maturity under pressure and leadership, which will definitely appeal to Meyer who understandably places a high value on discipline and experience.

Meyer named Steyn at inside centre in his first Test in charge of the Boks in Durban in June 2012, and the most obvious call would be to put him back there alongside skipper Jean de Villiers who is equally capable in both midfield positions.

However, this would mean breaking up the record-breaking partnership of De Villiers and Jaque Fourie who got reacquainted on tour in Europe at the end of last year. Fourie will not be available for all of the Bok Tests this year, so it is likely that Meyer will try out a few different centre combinations to look at his options for the World Cup next year.

The chances of Steyn playing as an outside back seem pretty slim as he does not have the pace he once did and it is hard to see Bryan Habana, JP Pietersen and Willie le Roux being displaced in the starting line-up.

That leaves flyhalf as a final starting option, and it is not as far-fetched as you might think. With Pat Lambie injured, Johan Goosen struggling to assert himself in Super Rugby this year and Morné Steyn getting limited game-time with Stade Francais it could be an interesting calculated  risk for Meyer to give him the No.10 jersey in one of the upcoming Tests against Wales or Scotland to see how he goes.

Steyn's versatility could well see him start on the bench to give Meyer's side some late impetus, although that may negate the strength of his long-range goal-kicking as most of those opportunities will come in the first hour of the game before defence's have started to tire.

Whatever your view on Steyn and how he should be used by the Springboks there is no doubting that he is giving Meyer a rather pleasant headache at the moment as he considers how to fit him into the team that beat everyone except the All Blacks last year.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2014, 18:55
#2
22 Apr 2014, 18:55#2
Mozart
Meyer would be mad to pick Steyn for anything.  His "cameo" performances relates to a few long distance penalty kicks - for the rest his performances was utter bullshit.   Come now give as a breakdown of his statistical performance and let us see how it gets to cameo performances.     
 Steyn must have the best PR system among SA rugby writers and you are stupid enough to lap it up.     


SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2014, 16:53
#3
23 Apr 2014, 16:53#3

There is only one spot for Frans and that is exactly where Jake is playing him at 12. He does not have enough speed for 15 or 13 and does not have the rugby instincts of a 10.

 

He always always been a little slow from hand to foot as shown in his charge down this last weekend.

 

His strength is his physicality and ability to put players into space. That is needed more at 12 than anywhere else. Frans is a 12, always has been and Jake is 100% right in playing him there.

 

Neither the Sharks nor the Boks need him at 10 - we have Lambie, Goosen, Swiel, Jantjies, Boshoff and Pollard as options at 10

 

 

At 12, Jean is a spent force, with Serfontein as the real deal to take over. Frans needs to battle it out with Jan for that 12 spot, with youngsters like Frans Venter and Andre Esterhuizen pushing.

 

 

For the Boks......Goosen and Lambie as our 10's with Serfontein and Frans as our 12 options......its simple really

 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 17:16
#4
23 Apr 2014, 17:16#4

Jean is a spent force....now where did I hear that before? Oh yes, from you last year Dave.....just before he had a great test season. Jean is still 10 times better than Steppie.

 

Your logic also gets you to Steyn at 12, where he can offload. But he can't go any closer to the scrum because he is "slow from hand to foot". So we play him at 12, presumably off the bench because Steppie is your first choice. So we lose the option of 60 metre kicks,  t he benefit of a kicker who can put the ball over the defence and a runner that has the strength to offload while being tackled by Kieran Reid....and your flyhalf no doubt is Goosen or perhaps on the evidence of one break Swiel.

 

 

Somehow I'm not persuaded.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2014, 17:16
#5
23 Apr 2014, 17:16#5
 Saffex
There are points where I disagree with you and others where I disagree.  Where I agree is with the deficient speed of Steyn - he is very, very slow for a backline player.
Where I disagree is about "His strength is his physicality and ability to put players into space."    I know he has the reputation of being able to do that - the only problem is he has not done it once this year in Super 15.  He has not taken contact and in the process off-loaded balls to put players into space and routinely "died" with ball in hand.
If you talk about putting players into space - even minimal space at that - have a look at the play of De Allende on Saturday leading to the Carr try.  That was drawing in two defenders and putting Carr into minimal space and a try followed. 
The question is - has Steyn got the ability to do it?  If he does then he has not shown it over the last two years.    I think the problem with Steyn has been identified by Skinstad.  He runs straight at the first defender - not at a slight angle towards the minimal space between the 12 and 13 - thus creating even minor uncertainty among defenders.   The problem can relate also  to the speed deficiency factor though.
To my mind - based on proven performances at 12 this year I am afraid that if De Villiers is not selected at 12 - which I doubt very much- the other contenders in that order are  De All ende, Serfontein and Steyn.    
I would have De Allende on the Springbok bench - he can cover 11, 12, 13 and 14 equally well.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2014, 17:28
#6
23 Apr 2014, 17:28#6

Yes Jean is done, it had to come, he is getting on now. He had a solid enough year last year and I said as much. Was he special, not even close.

 

 

Serfontein offers far more energy, talent and clout. Its time to move on. Yes Frans would be on my bench with Serfontein starting at 12.

 

 

I am not interested in 60m kicks when Frans cant even clear the line under pressure from 10. So I would select the more attacking minded Serfontein at 12, who is blessed with better attacking skills than Frans.

 

 

Without doubt, Goosen would be my starting 10 with Lambie as the back-up. Swiel has the talent to challenge but not yet, for now a good run with the Sharks will stand him in good stead.

 

I could not begin to make the kind of selections you make, the kind that Meyer makes and never gets us past NZ.......its too conservative and never looks threatening enough for the Kiwi's

 

 

How on earth can you begin to believe we would challenge the Kiwi's with a bunch of old farts like Habana, Jean, Morne, du Preez, Steenkamp, Bakkies, Matfield, Louw, Schalk etc......its laughable.

 

 

The Kiwi's have the perfect model.......they choose the best 15 regardless of age and supplement that 15 with the best youngsters about.......we don't see the likes of Fourie, du Preez, Bakkies, Steenkamp and Matfield brought back from the ashes.......this model is so obviously flawed

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2014, 17:42
#7
23 Apr 2014, 17:42#7
 Saffex
You got me totally wrong.   I would not selecr anybody but Goosen or Lambie at flyhalf and personally think that De Villiers has rarely produced the goods this year.   I like Serfontein - but with all due respect I think De Allende has done much better than he did this year.
I am doing a hesitation waltz on Engelbrecht and Serfontein - but that could have to do with the  witless way the Bulls and their attack coach (Matfield) want to see centers play.   The sooner Serfontein and Engebrexht gets out of that trap, the better their games will develop. 
    
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 17:45
#8
23 Apr 2014, 17:45#8
Dave with your team we wouldn't beat Wales let alone the ABs. The fact that we struggle to beat the ABs doesn't suggest if we changed everything we could beat them. Playing them at their own game....now that makes no sense. As for poor Steppie the ABs would feast off his inside step....just as they did when we picked Olivier, another favourite of yours.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2014, 17:52
#9
23 Apr 2014, 17:52#9
Another thing Dave.....you are so programmed by age and weight, you can't even see the obvious exceptions. Habana showed against the ABs 7 months ago that he is still our most dangerous back. JP on the other hand does look like he has lost some pace....yet you still condemn Bryan to the axe and ignore JP's problem.....because that's what the age numbers tell you. What a mental robot!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2014, 18:22
#10
23 Apr 2014, 18:22#10
Mozart
I have to agree with you about certain selections Saffex  support, but am mystified about your fixation about Francois Steyn.   You talk about his physique and presence - yet if you analyse his actual performances there is no indication that his physique and presence produce even minute results for his team.   
You can go through the whole series.   He is the one player at flyhalf or center that never made a line break - the only regular SA center who have never scored a try this year - who have never put players into space -  who have a seriously questionable defense record -  his reading of the game is poor and decisions often enough defective.   The problem with Steyn is twofold - too slow speed wise  (detrimental in both attack and defense) and the identified fact that he always run straight at the first defender without any idea about doing something different.   If there is a player which is robotic and easily contained despite his "physique" - it is   Steyn. 
I think that Steyn has more negatives than his few long distance penalties can cancel out.  
            
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 00:31
#11
24 Apr 2014, 00:31#11
Moz, I struggle to see how my side would lose to Wales given it is a far better side than Meyers........Meyers EOYT side was insulting to say the least.

If Meyer selects that same side against NZ and Oz this year, they wont win a single test and I'd put my weekends batting score on that in pounds.

You keep banging on about Jan's inside step, when on 3 occasions I have proved the opposite with his classic outside breaks.......much like I did with JJ and his classic outside beating of Savea......before that, you were telling us all that JJ could only step inside.......but at least JJ and Jan have steps, something Jean has never had.

Oh its Olivier again.......yes he was my third choice behind Jean and Frans!!!!

JP lost some pace.....kindly point out a passage of play this year that merits your conclusion......I am yet to JP put into space or any evidence of him losing pace......fact is JP has had about as much action as JJ has all S15 with ball in hand.......his pace has nothing to do with it. Why would he lose pace aged 27?

As for Habana, given the lack of quality wings coming through, he is the one old guy I would consider selecting. Would I select him ahead of JP and de Allende......no, but he would feature ahead of guys like Hendricks, Basson etc

Would I select Fourie ahead of JJ, Sadie, Esterhuizen, de Allende or Sithole.......no way in hell

Would I select Jean ahead of Serfontein or Frans......no way in hell

Would I select Morne ahead of Goosen or Lambie.......no way in hell

Would I select Pienaar ahead of Hougaard, de Klerk, v/Zyl or Reinach.......no way in hell

Would I select Steenkamp ahead of Kitshoff, Nkanyane, Mellett or Marcel v/d Merwe.........no way in hell

Would I select Bakkies and Matfield ahead of Lood, Steph du Toit, Willemse or Jacques du Plessis.......no way in hell

Would I select Louw ahead of Brussouw, Kolisi or Coetzee..........no way in hell

Would I select Alberts ahead of Steph du Toit or Jacques du Plessis at 7.........no way in hell

Fact is, the players Meyer selects are not the best in their respective positions and that's the very reason we don't challenge the Kiwi's who happen to select their best 23 match after match. Meyer can't even get the basics right.......imagine taking on the best of the Kiwi's with Kirchner, Habana, Fourie, Jean, Morne, du Preez, Pienaar, Steenkamp, Bakkies, Matfield, Louw, Schalk and Alberts all in the equation......what a bloody joke that would be
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Apr 2014, 01:20
#12
24 Apr 2014, 01:20#12
 I suppose the good news in that bowl of tripe is that you have finally accepted the point I made long ago that at this stage Stephanie is more of a 7 than a 5. 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
24 Apr 2014, 01:50
#13
24 Apr 2014, 01:50#13
Saffex every one of your posts is so predictable. You judge a players performance based on their age and weight/height. Your solution to everything is just selecting younger players for the Springboks, even if they are not yet standouts. 
You look at your spreadsheet of players weights, height and age, and then select your team of favorites.

If an older player like Jean or Habana has an average game is it because they are past it, but if a young player (that meets your weight and height requirements) has an average game, it is because of the game plan, the coach, or anything else.
According to you if a player like JP is only 27 he will not have lost any pace. Look at Frans Steyn- he started his career for the boks at wing and fullback, but he clearly is not as fast as what he originally was- even though he is still young.

JP is probably not as fast as he was before, but like Frans Steyn this is due to other factors like being heavier and taking injuries over the years.

"How on earth can you begin to believe we would challenge the Kiwi's with a bunch of old farts like Habana, Jean, Morne, du Preez, Steenkamp, Bakkies, Matfield, Louw, Schalk etc......its laughable.

 

-Morne- is just shit, it has nothing to do with his age. He is not better or worse than before.
-Habana-  is the highest paid wing in world rugby- because he is the best. Every year you go on about his age, but if a World XV had to be selected by experts, he is likely to be one of the first on the team sheet.
-Jean-  has been performing well last year, but has been part of the crap Stormers outfit this year. He is unlikely to get too old in a few months.
-Schalk apart from injuries has been performing as well as other flanks. He was good in New Zealand and just a pity he got injured as his form was returning.

"The Kiwi's have the perfect model.......they choose the best 15 regardless of age and supplement that 15 with the best youngsters about.."..

Many of their top players are in their thirties, but this is just a co-incidence. Dan Carter, Mccaw, Conrad Smith are once in a generation players, and were the best in their positions when they were young and old- so age is irrelevant in their selection.
Even when these players are injured or on Sabbatical, New Zealand are still winning. New Zealand have also won the most Super XV tournaments, so it is not a given that even if the best SA team is selected- that the boks would win.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 02:20
#14
24 Apr 2014, 02:20#14
No Moz......Steph du Toit is not a 7 and nor is Jacques du Plessis, as much as Alberts is not a lock......but I'd want both du Plessis and PSDT in my starting side, so one of them would have to play 7.....given Etzebeth is a certainty.......so your conclusion as always is completely wrong......much like your take on my bowl of tripe......my tripe makes perfect sense......no sound coach would select a bunch of hasbeens over the talented youngsters I mentioned.......only a conservative loser would make those calls......the same calls that will see us come second to NZ again this year
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
24 Apr 2014, 02:27
#15
24 Apr 2014, 02:27#15
Honestly guys, how dumb is this Dave oke! He reckons our "old farts" won't beat the AB's suggesting the youngsters will. Dave, u moron, last game vs the ab's, those same old farts accounted for 22 of our 27 points. Would Serfontein have had the sheer strength and determination to score a try like JDV. Did u see serfontein come on and produce the same spectacle that habana did?
Fuck off u prick. Habana and JDV are still our best backs! You are so dumb Dave. I just wana punch you in your stupid looking face!Then u say boks don't need Steyn at 10 and mention "options" like jantjies, boshoff, Swiel and pollard. Firstly, Steyn is better than all above mentioned. Jantjies has proven himself a flop and can't make a lions team. Boshoff has been found out these past few weeks and has helped his team to a massive 1 try in past 3 games. 240 mins of rugby for one 5 pointer but u right, he is the man to implement our running game. Swiel and pollard have shown absolutely no signs of being ready to hold down super rugby starting jerseys never mind Bok jerseys. None of those are options as u say fuck head.
U should join Rooinek in searching for male child porn on the web. Maybe you will have a better understanding of little cocks than rugby!
Jean and Bryan are spent forces... Ha ha comedy I tell u!
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 02:30
#16
24 Apr 2014, 02:30#16
Twatbok stop speaking shit.......JP, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Vermeulen and Brussouw all form part of my match 23.......are they all kids you dumb prick?

The Kiwi's have a handful of experienced players like Smith, Nonu, Carter, Woodcock, Hore, McCaw, Messam and Read.......the rest of the 23 are youngsters and the extended squad beyond the 23 are also youngsters.......that is why the AB's have the best side......they don't waste time in bringing back players like Fourie, du Preez, Pienaar, Steenkamp, Bakkies and the likes........they invest in their class younsgters
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Apr 2014, 04:17
#17
24 Apr 2014, 04:17#17
The AB side which won the RWC was much older than our 2007 and only marginally younger than our 2011 team. They had no problem playing Thorne ....just as they had no problem playing Barrett behind Cruden and before that playing Dagg behind Mils. Youngsters earn the right to the black jersey....we are far more likely to just hand it out.....as we did for a host of players last year, like Serfontein, like JJ, like Steph , like  Malherbe, like Adriaanzen, like Coetzee.
Not one of those guys would have played for NZ based on their accomplishments to that point.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 04:26
#18
24 Apr 2014, 04:26#18
Its not about the AB's of the past, its about the current crop. Their model is spot on......ours is counter productive bringing in a bunch of washed up hasbeens.

How on earth you or Meyer thinks we are going to seriously challenge the AB's with these old farts is beyond comprehension.

Yes, the AB's brought in Dagg to replace Mils......what do we do......we bring in Steenkamp as our bench loosehead, we bring in Bakkies as our bench lock and Fourie as our starting centre......its bloody insulting
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Apr 2014, 04:30
#19
24 Apr 2014, 04:30#19
Chicken......I am having a debate with Moz here.......can you please keep your ignorant tripe off this board.......I stopped reading that poor effort of yours after the second sentence.

I know I keep saying this, but fuck me you are thick........go find that bridge......shit it cant be that difficult......take your boyfriend with you for the ride
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