Which youngsters are worth promoting this year.

My hypothesis is, you stick with an established team and bring in youngsters in a controlled and limited way. That prevents the catastrophic Destroyli scenario, where you are ringing in massive changes after abject failure.

The key is the youngsters blend into a team....they don't form a new team. And they have enough succcesful internationals around them, so the team itself isn't too fragile.

With this in mind here's my take

* Mvovo has the physical assets....but will he compete at the highest levels? He'd have to show up against the top NZ/Oz wings first. Unlikely

*Sadie probably could be a factor, but again he needs to learn an awful lot. Too soon.

*Jantjies, probably the best near term back candidate. Possible sub.

*Goosen is perhaps our 2015 RWC pivot, but has to learn his trade. Too soon.

*Oosthuizen may eventually mature into a test prop, but will never be a power scrummager. Look for better options.

*Etzebeth.....may be a superstar. He is totally wet behind the ears....but so was Fransie. Worth taking a risk.

*Kruger an understudy for Bekker. Possible sub.

*Coetzee has a real rugby head...and strong physical attributes. Worth taking a risk.

Looking at all this, and believe me these ratings stretch the realm of the possible.......I really don't expect newbies to have great impact this year. But there are a few gems.

I am very much in agreement with you Moz. Peter made the mistake of recklessly throwing new players into the deep end. If they weren't out of position they were part of completely new, unfamiliar and often unbalanced combinations. They often came back home demoralised.

Mvovo
He is a hard wing. He needs to learn to press on the outside on defence and go looking for more work on attack. He is very strong carrying into contact and has serious gas. I cannot recall him running off the shoulder of Lambie. A bit more work by the inside backs and hev would have a few tries under his belt already for the Sharks. We need to have him in the squad.

Goosen
It's much too early for him I feel. Maybe a place in the squa with a look for the future?

Jantjies
Too much hype. This is not a test quality player.

Etzebeth
I like the look of this one. We've just lost the two best locks ever, we need to be bold. I say back him. He may bring out the best in Bekker, the two in tandem look very promising!

Kolisi
I am very impressed by what I am seeing here. This guy has been a gem, in six weeks time, will there be a place for schalk? Very promising! We must keep tabs on him.

I see Mvovo more in the mould of Chavanga and Nokwe, than say the Ndunganes. It's ironic, both Ndunganes are real rugby players with a great sense of the game and fearless courage. But they lack gas and/or power. I remember Lote Tuqiri running right round one of these twins from a virtual standing start.

But athletically challenged as they were, they were more reliable than Nokwe or Chavanga. I got rather enthused when I saw Chavanga carve through a few S15 teams and easily gas Joe Rocococo. But then the dropped passes, duffed kicks and missed tackles appeared. And poor Nokwe, almost a sure bet to score if there was daylight between him and the tryline, just couldn't abide physical collisions.

I see Mvovo in this school. Fast, with a better step than Nokwe and quite strong in the tackle. He is a more robust player. But is he willingly to leap for the high ball....will he take a hit without flinching? I'm not sure yet. The few times he was up against the top NZ wings last year, he came off second best, failing to close them down.....running escort as it were. This reminded me so much of Nokwe.

So the jury is out.

I see Mvovo more like a 2004 Habana. More of a touchline hugger waiting to be put away but with lots of untapped potential. He needs a bit of work and unfortunately I don't see the coaching team doing anything constructive with him.

 Moz you have missed a few.

Taute - this lad is our best young back - always looking for work, good pace, strength, step and swerve - I'd like to see him at 13 to replace Fourie

Kirchoff - this kid looks the real deal and at 120kg's has the physical attributes to succeed at the highest level.

Marcel v/d Merwe the Cheetahs loosehead injured at the moment. Last years Bok U20 prop and looks really hard and solid and at 124kg's is a big lad - this guy and Kirchoff look harder than Coenie - who I rate.

Elstadt looks a real hard nut with attitude - at 1.98m and 118kg's he has grunt to back his aggression.

Kolisi like Coetzee looks the best of the 20 year old loosies coming through. Kolisi is powerful.

Other youngsters to watch are fullback Ulrich Beyes last years Bok U20, wings JJ Engelbrecht, Sithole and Mjekevu, centres Jordaan, JP du Plessis, Pat Howard, Frans Venter, Tyler Fisher, Jan Serfontien, Dries Swanepoel and Small-Smith, scrumhalves Hoffmann, Groom, v/Zyl and Schrauder, props Trevor Nkanye, Malherbe, Frik Kirsten, Rossouw de Klerk, JC Engelbrecht, hooker Mbonambi, locks Steph-du Toit, Bresler, JA Marais, Jaques du Plessis, Quin Roux, Paul Willemse, Bullbring, Roodt and loosies JC Stander, Arno Botha, Koster, Carr, J.Strauss, v/d Walt

 I think Goosen is going to be Gods gift to SA  Rugby. He has it all...guts, brain, kicking ability, able to find touch and an excellent eye for a gap.

Not to young to face the big guys but an excellent replacement for Steyn (bang brook) from the Bulls. Goosen will have to move to a strionger team (Sharks, Stormers) to reach his full potential and allow him to show us his excellent skills.

Janties (quota player) and Lambie are no where near this guy and are both overrated. Good Super 15 players but not Internationals.

I do like the new Bulls loose forwards (Stegman, Spies excluded) young,strong, courages and determined.

Hougie at scrumhalf is going to win many test for us and with Goosen outside him we will be winners once more.

Like the new coach as well, pity he missed out last time round because if he was selected then we would have won RWC 2011 even with LAWRENCE AS REF!!!!

 A John, you are so wrong about Jantjies and Lambie.......Lambie has already proved himself at the highest level - we need him at 15 though not 10.

Jantjies has been fantastic all CC and he has carried that form into the S15. He is better than Morne as is Goosen

The Bulls loosies you like are Arno Botha last years Bok U20 captain and CJ Stander the previous year's Bok U20 captain - both quality players

Lambie has proven nothing at test level at 10. An emphatic failure! At 15 though... he looks promising, but I doubt he'd be better than Joe. Pecking order: Morne, Goosen, Grant, Butch, Bosman, Jantjies..... Lambie.

 Joe is average and physically not up to test rugby end of

Average? Hardly so! And he handed off a prop and a hooker last week Dave. He is better in contact than Lambie.

 Oh give me a break, Lambie is twice the player Joe is - I keep telling you there is no place for 80 odd kg backs in test rugby, especially ones that are average - yes he is average in every sense of the word. Having him as the Bok fullback is a complete joke. Morne deserves the Bok 10 spot way before Joe deserves the Bok 15 spot - thats how little I rate the guy.

More's the pity Dave.

 Nope its called being realistic - look at all the top international sides - are there any less than 90kg wings, fullbacks or centres out there. If you do make it, you have to be one hell of a special player - eg Williams or O'Connor, who by now weighs 90 odd kgs anyway.

We have some small guys like Joe, Aplon, Basson and de Jongh - none of them are special, not even close. The best of that bunch is Aplon, but he must be 30 odd now. Forget it - test rugby is for big skilful players

I think you will find that numerous small wings have succeeded where they have had inside backs doing their job. Williams is in fact a rather average player, but the Welsh bring him into play and create those opportunities for him to finish. Having a big bulldozer on the wing who has a drift defence push him into touch or losing only a mm of ground is not something I aspire to.

spot on Moz! my opinion exactly!

slowly bring in the young talent, bring them off the bench and/or play them against weaker oposition.. coaches need to comunicate with these young players, call it "mould" them into players that are needed around the experienced guys - that can play according to our game plan. you need to do it now so once the older guys bow out, your young guys fit right in (its called planning ahead) i have stressed it previously that our national coaches need to plan with the fanchises were to play certain talent and to a degree how to play them (game plan)

Jantjies - i think the guy needs a shot at the bok jersey, getting good clean ball from a quality pack and have quality backs outside him (its always good to have competion and Morne needs pressure on him)

Goosen - still abit young but needs to know that he is in the boks future plans.. Meyer should comunicate with him and let him know that he is being watched. this will boost his morale and hopefully push him to play even better. take him with on training camps and let him run plays with the boks, get used to the guys and their game plan.

Arthur John - if Goosen goes to the Sharks, they'll most probably play him on the wing or fullback.. maybe even 8th man ;) ;)

Schrauder - i watched him live in one of the Stormers warm up games and was very impressed. currently Duvenhage's back-up but very promising - keep a eye out for him.

L.Fouche - Morne Steyn's back-up at the Bulls. very accurate boot, not scared to put in tackles and looks to general his backline very well, you'll remember him from the currie cup when Steyn was away on national duty.

Arthur I too have high hopes for Goosen who at 19 years of age is a fantastic prospect that must not be rushed.

I think saying Elton is a quota player is wrong. The guy has real talent and a bright future.

Movov is not too small at 91 kg so I agree suspend judgement for awhile. See if he hardens up.

Taute is a real talent, as is Lambie. 

Whether one can start promoting a young prop like Kitschoff who just turned 20 in February. Not this season in my book.

Kolisi is also 20 and weighs in at 101 kg. Again leave him out of any Bok equation for now.

Joe 85 kg  will need to do a lot more before making a Bok side. I am not too partial to small fullbacks. See how he goes this Super 15. 4 pretty undersized backs in the Stormers backline if a concern  and Joe will not benefit from this. In a bigger stronger backline he would look better. Stormers may prove to be a bit defensively weak in the backline this year. We shall see.

We do have Frans, Lambie and Taute to consder. Kirchner is a NO.  He has no idea how to pass a ball.

Kitschoff is one for the future, so too Goosen; both are looking like very good prospects. We'll be better off looking at where they are a year before the World Cup. Janjties on the other hand does not have a future at test level. Lambie only and exclusively at 15. The Stormer's issues are not about size, but about the functionality of the backplay. Their work off the ball is shoddy, and they work it too wide too quick without earning the right to do so. Something that made the Sharks game very frustrating... they both are masters of disaster as far as backplay goes. Both lack good decision makers at 10 as well. Joe did look good though. A very strong and tough player. His tactical kicking and decision making is without equal at 15. He looks far more decisive than Lambie does there. More in the mould of a young Monty physically, but with the cool head of his latter years.

Joe will be 28 in May. I think Meyer will go for a younger player. We shall have to see how Joe copes as the season unfolds.

 Go ahead der and name the small wings currently playing international rugby - take your time. I think you will find there is not one single wing under 90kg playing international rugby.

Boy you dont half speak a load of sh1t - Williams average - you really dont know your rugby do you and I am being serious

Nippon: Hirotoki Onozawa (85kg)
Nippon: Takehisa Usuzuki (87kg)
Ireland: David Kearney (86kg)
Wales: Harry Robinson (88kg)
Wales: Liam Messam (85kg)
Scotland: Max Evans (87.9kg)
Scotland: Lee Jones (86kg)
England: David Strettle (86kg)
Australia: James O'Connor (88kg)
New Zealand: Cory Jane (88kg)
South Africa: Bjorn Basson (84kg)
South Africa: Jongi Nokwe (83kg)
South Africa: Tonderai Chavhanga (85kg)
South Africa: Gio Aplon (79kg)
South Africa: Bryan Habana (88kg) [2004-2006]
France: Alex Palisson (83kg)
USA: Takudzwa Ngwenya (84kg)
Samoa: David Lemi (83kg)
Tonga: William Helu (87.8kg)
Argentina: Horacio Agulla (88kg)
Argentina: Gonzalo Camacho (85kg)
Argentina: Agustin Gosio (89kg)
Argentina: Juan Jose Imho (84kg)
Romania: Catalin Fercu (87kg)
Romania: Catalin Nicolae (84kg)
Namibia: Heini Bock (81kg)
Uruguay: Leandro Leivas (86kg)
Russia: Vasily Artemyev (87kg)

Those who have played wing in the past:

Australia: Matt Giteau (85kg)
South Africa: Breyton Paulse (78kg)
South Africa: Brent Russell (80kg)

Good job I don't know anything about rugby Dave; There could have been egg flying your way! ;)













 

 Fuck me what a pathetic list - try again. I said real rugby players that are currently playing test rugby. Real = countries of note and current means incumbents - for a start the current Welsh wings weigh 104kg's each

Changing the goal posts Dave? You set forth the challenge and I produced accordingly! As for real countries? There are 5 South Africans, 4 Argentinians, 1 New Zealander, 1 Australian, 1 Frenchman, 2 Welshman, 1 Irishman, 2 Scots and 1 Englishman. If I had to make a list of the past decade, this list would be expanded threefold at the very least! What this proves is that your take on wings is incorrect.

 JeanF,

Regarding Goosen moving to the Sharks...I think you comment is absolutely spot on.

Plumtree has made some rather unexplainable selections and placings since he has taken charge.

Well the old saying is `You get what you pay for`` unfortunately.

By the way guys  pse excuse me for not knowinmg the names of some excellent SA players as it is a struggle here in Canada to stay on top of the game in RSA with all this ruddy hockey and basketball played here.

Rule #1 Anything Saffex says is wrong. That should steer you clear 9/10 times lol

 No der, stick to what I asked you for - I said a list of current international wings weighing less than 90kg......your 5 SA's are a joke. Just in case you missed it, you will find the Bok incumbent wings are Habana (95kg) and JP(102kg).........I dont need a list of never beens like Nokwe and co......as for bringing in those names no-one has ever heard of you, you should have just ask me for the names of my U15 wings, you could have added them as well

For the record, James O Connor now weighs 90kg and you will find players like Strettle and Jane will have muscled up to that kind of weight as well. The rest of your list are a bunch of nobodies - an insult of names in fact

http://www.sanzarrugby.com/superrugby/news/australian-conference-2012-super-rugby-squads/

As I said you just dont get wings, fullbacks and centres weighing less than 90kgs playing test rugby today for those sides in the top 8. If they do get to play they have to be pretty special like Williams and Halfpenny - we dont have any special small players worthy of a test spot - Aplon, Joe, Basson and de Jongh are anything but special - they are about as special as golden boy Morne!!!

The Bok incumbents? The two very players who have been repeatedly lambasted every year over the last four years? Our wings have been rotated alot, and Peter was never satisfied with either one.

Whatever Dave, nothing is going to satisfy you. If you are going to just shift the goal posts then I am only wasting my time discussing this with you. In conclusion though, there are many small internation wings out there, there are some even smaller half-backs and centres! Your idea of weight is simply incorrect.
 

I aalways believed that we should have started to bring in younger players by 2010 and not waited for departure of the rugby geriatrics until after the world cup.

Now for the youngsters with huge potential:-

Lambie is first choice as full back  - he is young with a huge amount of potential.

Wings - I like Basson - fast and effective - strong runner

               The other side we have a number of established wings around - so no new one to suggest

Centers - of the young ones I like Whitehead and Sadie 

Flyhalf    -   We need a flyhalf - my first choice is and remain Goosen - a real thinking fly-half.  jantjies follows after him.    Morne should be retired together with Du Preez.

Scrumhalf - New one urgently needed

Forwards - like th Stormer youngsters and am sure they are the future of the Springbok team.

We cannot make changes left right and center - but should start team building now for the enxt World Cup.   

Basson struggled on the 2010 EOYT. He seems to have a knack for chasing kicks. To me, he offers very little. I;m also not too certain on those centres. We are not producing very good centres. Outside of Frans, Fourie and de Jongh we have no test quality, or proven test quality centres. Very few are holding their hands up so far this season. Morne, then Goosen... our prospects here are very slim. Hougaard at scrumhalf.

Mvovo's biggest problem is his wavering uncertainty under the high ball. Put one in his direction and watch his stress levels rise.

Plumtree gets a lot of flack for moving his players around but it looks like the JP switch to centre could be a masterstroke. Currently the best 13 in the country at the moment.

If you take JP's running into consideration, he has had a few isolated successes. Defensively, he is very vulnerable. In short, he plays like a winger out of position.

 der please dont make it up as you go. You cant provide me with an answer as there is no answer - no answer because the reality is that all current wings playing test rugby for the top 8 rugby nations weigh over 90kg's.

Please dont insult me by trying to tell me that Habana and JP are not the incumbents as they have been for some years now. The only time they have not been selected is when injured. Ask anyone on this board who the Bok incumbent wings are and the only answer is Habana and JP - FACT...........face it sunshine you are wrong again, just admit it - failing which name a current AB, Oz, Bok, English, Freanch, Irish or Welsh wing weighing less than 90kg's

Don' t worry about not knowing some SA players Arthur. Some know the players names  and don't know how they are playing!! Hehehhehehe.

I think the days of backs under 90 kg are becoming a thing of the past particulary at test level between top nations. Maybe the odd very exceptional player proving the rule.

The weights of players continues to increase. Nowadays 110 kg for  a loosie is not heavy.  10 years time it will be115 kg and so on.

Cant agree on your opinion on JP. He's looking good at 13, definitely in defense. Nothing has gone past him in his three games. Offensively, the move that put Bosman away was sweet. Perhaps you never saw the last game?

Against the Bulls JPP missed all of his tackles and was not very secure against the Stormers. He can hit a gap. But that's nothing new. His distribution is very poor. A distributor at 13 is very important. Once you compare him to Fourie, you begin to see just how average he is at 13. No 13 in SA can cut the line like Fourie. His positional play is flawless, his support play far more advanced. That's what we should be looking for. de Jongh, Olivier and Ebersohn are the only 13s putting their hands up.

It's amazing to me what otherwise smart guys sometimes say. The Card says Fury's positional play is flawless.....yes if flawless means hiding on the blindside while your direct opponent is carrying the ball on the open side. He cuts the line.....yes if there are forwards in the line, he never beats his direct opponent.  His support play is more advanced....yes, if not being there to support one JdV break in the QF is more advanced.

Meanwhile Dave doesn't rate Paulse....but Lomu never did a thing against Paulse. He simply placed himself between Lomu and the passer.....he was fast enough to do that. And fast enough to score every try where pace was the deciding factor. Let's not buy 12 oz steaks when 8 oz steaks are higher quality.

Fourie is still our premier 13. Compared to JP, he is an utter masterpiece of a 13. On many occasions Fourie has outplayed Smith and other top 13s. JP is just a winger moved further in, he does not defend properly and has already been exposed. What does he really offer on attack? Just individual brilliance on occasion in an otherwise languid backline devoid of any real purpose. To the uninitiated, yes, it may look impressive, but it's not fooling me for a second.

I don't really know much about Dave's view of Paulse, but I will share mine. He was an incredible player that knew how to make positive contributions. I remember in the 2004 TNs how he and Big Joe stood tallest against Australia when we were down to 14 men. He was a class act. Incidentally, I watched the Aussie/All Black test of 2000 last night, the one billed as the greatest test of all time. I watched Lomu do sweet bugger all. Just a track runner that could run through smaller players. He was rounded brilliantly by Mortlock and thumped hard by Roff. If any of these two wings are overrated, it's definitely Lomu. I think the fact that he failed in 14 test to score against the Boks says alot about his reliance on physical superiority rather than actual genius. Paulse had a lot of heart, was a fine player from a technical and tactical standpoint and played well above his weight; that's real class in my opinion.
 
I was busy writing a post about backplay and South African players, I'll try finish that and post it before I take time off here.