As you all know by now, a Canadian has been scooped up by the Stormers to probably be a loose forward replacement for about 4 games. I've been reading articles on this on many websites and when I read the comments left below, I notice SOME (not saying everyone) are very territorial, and are against any sort of foreign player coming into play for an SA team.
Why is that?
Can, even though I am all for it, it has more to do with a bit of hypocrysi of a few supporters, and it is a long story. I am a Saffer, living in the UK, and I am quite often involved in a bit of banter about the Saffers in various British sports teams. I believe that the world has become a very small place, and it is much more possible to have influences and learn from others. I believe it is great for the lad to be able to play over here.
I just remembered and had to edit my post. I wanted to add that I am in Reading, where London Irish have their home games (they are not actually situated in Reading), and I am obviously a London Irish Supporter. So, while being a Bulls supporter, I will not be supporting him in the S15, he will have my backing when he returns to The Exiles. LOL
I think the odd foreign player is ok, but when it gets to the levels one sees in Europe it becomes pathetic if you are a local supporter.
When a foreigner plays he takes the place of a potential Bok - thats just my opinion on foreign players. I'd rather see them invest in a young SA U20 player than see a foreigner brought on board.
But as I have said the odd foreigner is not an issue. One per squad I can live with as its good to see them exposed to the best domestic competition out there.
I live in Canada, and love hockey. About 15 years ago teams started to draft and sign players from Europe, and Russia, and this was looked upon badly just like it is with Jebb Sinclairs situation. We thought it would kill our game, kill our chances at cotinuing to be the greatest nation at hockey, etc. etc. I even believe people said the same thing as you saffex. That only one or two should be alowwed on a team.....Now, there is still whispers of this argument, but the average hockey team now has anywhere from 2-15 (about 25 on a team) foreign players playing for it. We have accepted it because they are good players helping our teams win. All in all, I still haven't seen Canadian Hockey take a hit, while the game has grown extremely well globally (Northern hemisphere anyway). Trust me, this will not take away from SA rugby. I thougt the same thing about my countries hockey.....it didn't happen.
I think as Rugby fans we need this game to grow much more. This is a tiny step, but it's in the right direction.
I'd hate to support a Stormers side that had 5 foreigners in it. My passion for SA rugby and its Super 15 sides is about them being SA'n. I dont support the brand, I support the players - but thats just a personal thing for me. I have no affiliation to any SA franchise - I support the players and what they can bring to the ultimate goal - that is playing for the Boks.
Hence me not wanting to see more than 1 foreigner in each squad. Its a selfish prespective, but its mine. Every foreigner playing, deprives a young SA'n playing S15 rugby and possibly making an impression leading to Bok selection.
Take Carr for instance, he would not have got a look in had it not been for all the injuries. He has played S15 rugby now and looks a Bok in the making.
Xenophobia exists between guys in Parow and guys in Newlands. So you can imagine the concern when a foreigner appears.
I wouldn't call it selfish. Don't take this the wrong way, but I just think you are afraid of the uknown. You think it will take away from your countries "roots", and ruin your countries strong hold on Rugby. (With 2 other countries) I have no problems with that thinking. I thought the same way with my country and Hockey. Again though, I really don't think it will take away from SA rugby, just like it didn't take away from Canadian Hockey.
As the game grows globally, these types of situations like todays will slowly become more regular. Super rugby is still quite a new league and I think the seperation from country and league teams hasn't been made yet. It will be difficult as the conferences are different countries. But eventually, probably generations from now, the seperation will be made Imo. Kiwis will be playing for SA sides, and vice versa. Players will go where they can get paid, and teams will pay players to help them win no matter where they're from. It already happens with coaches. The all mighty dollar will dictate this. National pride will come from playing in the tri nations, RWC, and test matches. League play will be seperate. Look at mostly every major professional sports league in the world. It is like this.
I just cant begin to compare ice hockey to rugby though as I see international ice hockey as quite limited in scope - but I might be wrong. The emphasis is not on international ice hockey but more on the pro teams?
Foreigners dominate the NH club rugby sides and look where they stand in the pecking order when it comes to rankings - these foreigners dilute their pools of players to select national teams from. In England they only tend to have 2 players per position worthy of test rugby, whereas we seem to have double that in NZ and SA. The reason is obvious, far too few Englishman are being exposed to top flight English club rugby
Hockey and Rugby are difficult to compare, I agree. I was just simply trying to make a point that it will not take away from SA rugby as much as you think.
The emphasis is pro teams, but each country has to put it's own emphasis on it's countries roster when a tournament is played. Big problem with hockey is that the tournaments are all played while the pro league is playing, so it's not always the best teams on the ice for each country. The only break we get is for the olympics.
The watering down of your players will happen, but not at a massive scale. There are two NH teams right behind SA in the rankings.. I'd say that's pretty impressive while foreigners dilute their leagues. Trust me, I hated the fact Canada didn't steam roll over teams in international play, but I got over it, and now watch some damn good hockey games during the olympics and other tournaments.
All I'm saying is ,as the game of rugby grows, it's inevitable this will happen more. Teams want to win, and they will play who they need to to do so. Embrace it a little. I mean we're Canadians..c'mon ,eh?!! :)
I agree with Dave that we do not want to be investing in too many foreigners. England have ruined their own national football side by their foreign imports. One foreign player maybe etc.
I will be very happy if this Canadian does a good job for us - as I think he will given his credentials.
Interesting argument from John Cardinelli at Keo:
JON CARDINELLI says it’s ludicrous to suggest the recruitment of a foreign Test player is a slight on the Western Cape loose-forward contingent given what’s transpired over the last three months.
Seconds after Canadian international Jebb Sinclair was named on the Stormers bench, the Twittersphere was ablaze with indignation. A lot of people alleged that the recruitment of Sinclair sent the wrong message to younger players in the Western Cape’s junior ranks.
Others were even angrier, spewing vitriol at the Cape union for gross mismanagement. This group said it was little wonder younger players accepted offers from overseas clubs or competing Super Rugby franchises. The Stormers and WP, they argued, don’t give youngsters enough opportunities.
The timing of these allegations couldn’t have been worse. If one stops to consider the evidence, the allegations are actually quite absurd.
There have been times when the Stormers have got it wrong, as Francois Hougaard and Johann Sadie are but two promising Cape-reared players who defected to other franchises due to a lack of opportunities. It is because of these defections that there is a perception in South Africa that the Cape union is guilty of squandering its young talent.
On this occasion, however, to say the Stormers management is guilty of not backing their youth and structures couldn’t be further off the mark.
An eight-from-nine record in the 2012 Super Rugby competition could not have been achieved had the Stormers coaches not backed the younger players. The Stormers started the first game with two 20-year-olds, Steven Kitshoff and Eben Etzebeth, in the run-on team, as well as another two 20-year-olds in Siya Kolisi and Frans Malherbe, on the bench.
Over the course of 10 games, these youngsters have been granted ample opportunity and, in the case of Kolisi, have stepped into the starting side when a key player has been injured. Aside from Schalk Burger, the Stormers have also had to deal with further long-term injuries to Nick Koster and Duane Vermeulen. This has forced coach Allister Coetzee to hand Nizaam Carr his first Super Rugby cap.
That the Stormers won three from four on their recent tour to Australasia doesn’t mean that they are not in a precarious situation. They are just one injury away from a massive crisis, and are going into a phase of the competition where they will play four physical encounters in a row.
They need to keep winning to keep their hopes of topping the South African conference alive, and while Kolisi, Ryhardt Elstadt and Carr are set to start the majority if not all four of those games, they will need some quality in reserve.
This is the message Coetzee tried to convey on Monday. The Stormers had been working to bring Francois Louw back to Cape Town for the four-game stint. When it didn’t work out, they brought in Sinclair, a Canada international with 25 Tests to his name and a season with London Irish under the belt.
Because of injuries incurred earlier in the season, the Stormers have already been forced to promote Carr and Don Armand from the Vodacom Cup, and while the promotion has coincided with success Down Under, Coetzee is concerned that the next rung of young loose forwards are not equipped to cover the No 8 or blindside position at Super Rugby level.
Indignant fans should not be asking why the young players at WP are being neglected, because as seen through the blooding of Kolisi, Etzebeth, Kitshoff, Carr and Armand over the course of the current season, this clearly isn’t the case.
The question should rather be: Who the hell is Jebb Sinclair? And why out of all the possible recruits, has Coetzee brought in a player from far-flung Canada?
It didn’t come as a surprise to me when the request for Louw was turned down, and I’m sure there were a few other high profile players who would have come to Cape Town if not for their commitment to overseas clubs and national teams.
It’s a bad time to be sending out an SOS for an experienced loose forward. The Stormers have a gruelling schedule lined up for the next four weeks, and not many clubs are willing to risk key players before the start of the European season, or indeed four weeks before the June Test window opens.
The reasoning behind the recruitment of Sinclair is that he is a big strong player at 111kg and 1.93m, and will be able to play a powerful defensive and ball-carrying role. This is why players such as Nick Fenton-Wells and Rohan Kitshoff have been overlooked for Super Rugby promotion.
The Stormers are looking for players who have experience at Super Rugby or Premiership level and who can play No 7 and 8. Fenton-Wells may have been playing No 8 in the Vodacom Cup (which is not his preferred position), but Coetzee feels Fenton-Wells would not cope in that position in the far more demanding Super Rugby environment.
I don’t know if Sinclair will prove an inspired recruitment or not, but I agree with Coetzee’s argument that a strong and experienced player was needed to cover the existing loose trio combination of Kolisi, Elstadt and Carr.
The Stormers have already shown that they are committed to backing their youngsters, and that shouldn’t be in question. And at this stage of the competition they are also under pressure to maintain their winning momentum. Having a specialist in the position who also boasts experience at this level is only going to help their cause.
On this note i actually think i am one of the few South african fans that agrees with Can on this.
What we also need to take into accound is the fact that the sport is professional, this is a business, and the bussiness is winning, that is the only way that your fans will be happy , and you do it the best way you know how. Coaches will differ in the way they do it and their oppinions. In future we might have a situation as Can explains where the Superrugby competition will become such a bussiness that players from everywhere come in. Look at james Haskell, Danny Cipriani, this has already started, and to be honest it will become bigger as Can argues, the dollar (Rand) will speak loud and clear.
As a stormer supporter, Jeb has by support now, as he represents my team, but next year if he plays for another team he won't have it :) So good luck to Jeb, and let's hop the rumours that he can fight a bear with his bare hands are true :)
Thats my point, league hockey dictates and little importance is attached to international hockey. If rugby got to this point I'd chuck in the towel. Given you never seem to have full strength international sides, how are you able to judge the true standard of your national side?
One other positive is that the rand is very weak so the incentive to play for a SA side should be low on this list if a player is after financial reward.
I will NEVER embrace an influx of foreign players playing in our domestic sides, for they deprive our own players of game time and reduce the pool of talent feeding our Bok side. This is what is happening in the NH and yes NH sides are placed 4 and 5 in the rankings, for there is nowhere else for them to do, but downwards in the rankings.
As I said one or two foreigners per squad, I can live with - no more
"What we also need to take into accound is the fact that the sport is professional, this is a business, and the bussiness is winning, that is the only way that your fans will be happy , and you do it the best way you know how."
This is one point I'm trying to make. Would people be happy with their team losing, with 1 foreigner on their team, or would you be happy with your team winning, with 4,5,6 foreigners on your team? Winning puts bums in seats. Bums in seats puts money in the owners, and players pockets. It's a business, and will be taken like one more and more as the league moves along. I'm not saying I like that, and I don't, but unfortunately it's the way it is.
If our sides had 5 or 5 foreigners in it, I'd lose interest and not bother with watching them. I dont support the Bulls, Stormers or Sharks - I support the players as SA'ns
So you really don't have a favourite team?? I know you do, but you know what I mean? You just support SA rugby as a whole. Whatever team is from SA, and has SA'ns on it, you will only support?
What if they 4 or 5 foreigners were Canadian? j/k :)
Canrugby, I'm a Stormers fan and I have absolutely no problem with them bringing in someone from outside the Stormers in this particular case. Him being from Canada makes it even better, coase I think the extra media exposure might be good for rugby in Canada. I think there will always be those wo would look for a reason to critisise the Stormers just for the sake of it (from within and the outside). Don't let that bother you. Most Stormers would welcome a Canadian in Cape Town. I don't know if you remember Christian Stewart, but he was a great servant of WP rugby, and also a Canadian test player (95 RWC). I hope Jebb kick some arse over here!
Expat living in Canada.
Just to settle this debate with a curve ball.....just look what has happened to the England soccer team....
The Premier soccer league is excellent with all the foreign players boosting the teams but is has come at a price to the National team.
Many english players are overlooked at the top because they demand high salaries as oppopsed to a player from another country who is prepared to play for less....this has resulted in the FA management introducing a quota system for english teams hiring overseas players.
The whole process has cost the Englanf soccer team dearly and I would hate to see that happening to our national team.
Amen.
Imagine supporting an English football club that is only competitive due to foreigners. The English clubs and national teams are filled with foreigners who are playing for the pound, pension and old queen.
What about Rangers vs Glasgow- hundreds of years of religious hate- now represented by foreigners who could not care less about the legacy of this culture.
Why hate a foreign player when we have our own to love? Check out this post for more details- http://sarugby.com/forum.cfm?threadid=875 -
No can, I have no favourite team. I am a saffa living in England and who grew up in the Eastern Cape......so I tend to support the side that has most of my favourite players in it. That would be the Stormers, Bulls and Sharks at this point in time - but support all the SA sides as a whole with no loyalty to any of them
Arthur John, the standard of the England football team has a lot less top do with the foreign players then what many want to believe, and in addition the "poor standard" is more a perception thna anything else. There are not that many international games in football as there are test series.
There are 20 clubs taking part in the English Premier League. A club like Manchester United has a squad of 52 First team players, which is what more or less the size of all the EPL clubs. That is 1040 players in the English Premier League. Even if half of those are foreign players, it leaves you with opportunity for 520 English players, and I cannot see the best of the best of English players not getting playing time because of foreigners in the system. Not even if only 75% of the squads were foreigners.
The so-called poor England football team carries that label because the have only won one WC title. They are still ranked 7 out 205 football playing countries. How many World Titles has our cricket team won? And if we beat England this summer, we could retain the top spot on the test world rankings.
Hogwash windpomp. The question is how many English players are prevented from gaining top flight experience by foreigners. Quite a few I would think. These foreign players make their names playing international football and sign up for the premier league and play in the first teams. Local talent languishes and so does English football.
Why do you think countries like Spain and Germany do better.
No England have sold their national team down the river for an international league that generates vast sums of money for the money boys.
They had better watch it as they are having their wee country taken over by various foreign groups and will have to migrate to Canada/Oz in future. Hahahahahahaha the oaks better wake up.
Time they deported ou windpomp for starters!! Saffex can remains as some lawyers are needed to do the necessary and voluminous paper work.
Ag Hogwash jou neus teen die muur vas man. Go research the numbers of English football players in the EPL, and then work out the ratio of the number of spots available. Rugby is a nothing sport if you compare numbers and nations playing the game. There are ample playing opportunity for the best of the best that England can have, in the EPL and then there are still places open for foreigners. The fact is that all the top league football clubs in all the countries have the players that they need and can afford. Yes, not always what they want, but that is a question of supply and demand. For sure, a Man United, or a Arsenal or a Chelsea or whatever club would like to have Lionell Mesi, but unfortunately there is only one Lionell Mesi.
There is more to international than just the FIFA World Cup, and many people are judging England based on their world cup record. That is why I say brought up the SA Cricket team. By the World Cup yard stick, South Africa must have the kakkest national cricket team on the planet. How many International football matches have you watched over the last year? More important, how many matches have you watched them play, and who were their opponents? I am quite sure that you do not even know who they played and when, without searching for it on the internet. If you have 205 football playing nations then, in my book, any of the top 15-20 are the cream of the crop in the world.
Ceradyne...I wish to respnd to you issue about how many WC have SA cricket won.
Well for starters because of politics our team was excluded from international cricket for years.
But where were you during the Richards, Lindsay, Pollock, Proctor, Irvine, Cook, Rice years.
We slaughtered all and everything before us and more.
I bear no hatered for any player/s but want to see the national side at full strength and that requires a good SA players base at S15 and other competions.
By the way even the great Fergie from Man U has touched on the issue of english players being sidelined for "other" players.
Thoughts.
AJ, I have been around in those years as well, and I know what the extent of politics is in our sports. That is not the issue here. That era of our cricket is however not relevent in this issue. What I was trying to point out was that winning a World Cup title, or in this case loosing it badly, does not necesarily mean that the overall game of a country has gone down the tubes, as was suggested. Your remarks underline exactly what I was trying to point out. Even though we are not at the top of the rankings at the moment, we are and have always been within striking distance, despite our poor performances at World Cup events. I suspect that we will be the no 1 test side by the end of the England series....................... without one single world cup title.
The reason I brought this into the argument is that I am sure that Beeno has no idea of what is cooking in international football, and he has no idea what the playing opportunities are for the top English football players. I accept that Fergie could/would have made the remarks, but it is in my opinion a perception. As I have indicated, even if only 25% of the available spots in the EPL competirion alone, it creates an opportunity for 250+ players to showcase their abilities. That is in the EPL alone. There are another 24 clubs competing in the League Competiton as well.
Sounds like Xenaphobia to me, I see no problem with the the amount of foreigners playing in our franchises.
He had a solid game. Good stuff to come next week I'm sure!
