Why Are human beings so dishonest???

Most people have not developed an inner sense of honesty, or truthfulness. That takes training. You might see a person cheat and lie and steal for many years with no bad results. That person has to live with the darkness of heart. It is a very unhappy place. But those who find honesty and truth, and walk in it, find light, and honor, and happiness. Those are the people we need to find as friends.

Actually it doesn't take training, we're born with it. Look at how easy honesty comes to small children. An adult will still be thinking of a diplomatic response and the child will just blurt out "he is ugly mommy" (maybe that only happens to me).

We start losing the ability to be honest when we learn that we may be punished for making mistakes. Building up the courage again to be honest despite the perceived punishment we may have to endure should we admit our mistakes, that takes training.

 
It's called integrity. It's a decision you take.

It has nothing to do with your relationship with the Light.

One can live a life of decency without ever having walked in the Light.

Just cause you have integrity doesn't mean you even know that the Light exists.

It's a personal choice on what makes you feel good about yourself.

 Well no, what you just described was a child being both rude and unkind ! 
That is not honesty. That also is about perception. That lady might not be at all ugly !! 
And it's about not having manners  

Some of us are honest. But in this world, we are few and far between  

Well said CC 

No youre wrong...sin, from the start we are proud and selfish and unteachable...products of selfishness and delusion...we are just dishonest to see the truth because it makes us uncomfortable from a child we need true love and correction and manliness and feminism to face life...the present world is bedevilled with dishonesty, partial truths and lies.

When we are guilty we duck and dive and find excuses and take the soft options to suit ourselves and never face the music...if we ourselves mentor our kids this way, they are lost in our deceit.

Lying is the first and most terrible sin.


 

Well, if you want to be picky, and if you are Religious, which I am not, Original Sin is the first Sin, not lying   

 I suggest reading Freakonomics. Incentive man, it's all about incentive. 

Actually Becs I find it endearing when a child calls me ugly (it has happened, possibly more than once). It is so much better than that fake smiling adult who says "oooh don't you look great" to your face and then turn around and go "ugly tosser" quietly to themselves. I'll take brutal honesty (what most people would consider rudeness) over empty sugar coated platitudes any day of the week. But that's just me.

Lying is an acquired habit Seb, we're not born with it. And the concept of sin is nonsense, it's a religious vehicle for enslaving people's minds.

 
You must remember that we are all bound to sin. Shackled at the ankle. We cannot escape it. Where we go it goes too. Sin is a very natural way of going about life.

The Light bound us to it so that He can play the hero. 

Problem is that this world has been covered by a shroud. It hides the Light.

I do not know a single person who walks in the Light, sinless.

Do you?

I don't know anyone that walks in the Light, I don't think !  

 One of my Aspergery boys was at the Childrens Hospital in Brisbane with his mum at age 4 .He saw a rather large woman walk past and said in his loud monotone " that lady is really fat mum ,she must eat a lot !"Naturally his mum wished the ground would open up and swallow her , but he wasnt imbued with a built in censor that others have so we needed to teach him empathy and love ,right from wrong [ social mores aside some things are always wrong or right ]Being a decent human doesnt require any particular belief in a deity .

 You obviously have missed the most important part! That's precisely the issue.Nobody is sinless.

That's why we go to Him and that's why He chose to stand in our place. To cover us and pay for our sins...He is perfect and our efforts no matter how good are flawed, no kudos get you there...50% or 99.9% won't get you a pass...good works are plausible but they are not enough  only He can stand in our place...that's precisely why He went to the cross.

It's an entirely free gift...a gift yes but a gift only becomes yours if you accept it!

You have the freedom to accept or reject...God never forces you...one of His greatest gifts is freewill.

You can choose the consequences of your unbelief, every body has this option. God never forces you...you and everybody else has a choice. True love is giving you choice with responsibility.

 
Sorry Sebastien but there is no such thing as "Free Will".

He's manipulated everything right from the onset ... including the fall of Adam and Eve.

Take Pharaoh of Egypt as an example. How may times did He not harden Pharaoh's heart, forcing Pharaoh to reject Moses' plea, so that He could decimate the land with His plagues and murder the first born of everything?

He has a blood lust second to none I know.

Look how He murdered Job's family through Satan.

Look how he instructed a demon to go torment King Saul.

They're supposedly the enemy. Why is He fraternizing with the enemy.

Perhaps I'm not the one to talk to about this.

It is a subject I very much enjoy but sadly I see Him as the monster in the closet ... not a loving father as you do.






 

 Ah Cleancut but you are assuming you are judging from a Superior and righteous viewpoint, you are assuming you coming to the table with something to offer, that you are negotiating and argueing from a position of power, that you see the end from the beginning, that you see the big picture, that you have combined a trillion potential scenarios for one individual across billions of other individuals/families/nations/worlds/universes and come across the correct one .

Most of us are just pathetic losers who don't claim to know all the answers but surrender to the fact that he knows best and without him we are nothing past/present/future. We love him because he first loved us "while yet we were sinners, he died for us" "greater love hath no man than this that he laid down his life for his friends"

 
Hakwa ... if you're going to defend Him then please do so properly.

Debate with me. Convince me.

Telling me that He sees things from a different perspective is an old excuse used a zillion times over by people such as yourself who don't know what to say.

I have heard it all before. It's feeble. I want some substance.

Try something new.

I know it becomes a little difficult to find a suitable excuse for Him when He murders people left and right. You've probably done it many times before, lying on His behalf, in an attempt to prove Him righteous. 

Bottom line is He manipulated the Pharaoh and then murdered his people to achieve His goal. He planned this way before He even sent a drought to the land.

Did He or didn't He harden Pharaohs heart?

How many times? 10 times perhaps?

Did He or didn't He kill their first born after forcing Pharaohs suitable response?

Yes or no.

It's not a difficult question.

You forgot to include the end result of Job's plight and the consequences and what happened because he stuck to his faith in God's integrity which surpasses man's by a trillion times and more because we cannot comprehend it and the truth, afterall all of us face trials, at times, indeed some more and worst than others... some too terrible to contemplate because of downright evil and the master of all evil...it's something we all at times fail to understand because we are limited in understanding and struggle with our limited interlect to under God who is is omnipotent,omnipresent and omniscience but He nevers tests us beyond our ability to believe that all eventually works out...rather than having faith we choose to blame Him and He knows our ability to withstand the adversity...one thing however that's true and unquestionable He never tests us beyond that. That's how we mature, grow up and become better persons. We can never interlectually understand everything about God, it's impossible but what we do know because it is recorded and doc umented that He loved us so much that He sent His Son to save us. He became flesh and died for us...some people will believe the year 2014 but deny that Christ lived...now isn't that strange.

 
Lara ... I've asked a simple question ... that without an answer. It's always like that.

Words like we have limited intellect and we don't understand Him. 

He says we're not to murder yet he murders. Seems it's too difficult for Him to follow his own laws yet he expects us to. 

No matter. I'll take your advice Lara and back off altogether.

Neither of these can give me an answer anyway.

Always gobbildy gook!! 

Wardad...that is true.
I have never been rude, never insulting to anyone , like the example you gave, even from a small child. Because we were brought up to have manners. And to defend others from bullies or those who have no voice of their own. And to speak out for what we believe to be right ourselves.
And we were also brought up in a house without Religion.
I know many very Religious people and they certainly do not practice what they preach ! 
It has nothing to do with Religion and everything to do with manners, discipline and conducting yourself appropriately at all times. We can all do that, regardless. 

 Yes bast-ardry knows now religious boundaries , I dont have any probs with folks beliefsjust dont try to pass it off as science or historical fact Its religion in its organized form I dont like ,lie ,steal cheat then head off to the mosque or church for absolution by some earth bound geezer so you can start over again ? Theists dont have a monopoly on decency .Templar Knights and the others like the Knights of St John were otherworldly warriors though .Templars were good business men too so go figure?I forget the name of the movie but some one states that the definition of a lady or gentleman is that they make others feel at ease around them ,seems right to me .My kids are always polite even old fashioned like giving up bus seats to Elders and ladies always treating shop assistants etc with a please and thank you .Ettiquet doesnt occur spontaneously its taught but decent behaviour is there to be brought forth I reckon ,if its there to begin with .

 Well what a sensitive subject.Everywhere I go in the world I am faced with people asking this question:How can there be a God when the world is so bad?A fair question.Answer,I dont know really. What I can testify on is not His ways but what I understand through relationship.Ultimately the best way to spell love is T-I-M-E.What you spend your time on will determine your believes.We are told to guard our hearts cause we are vulnerable to believe easily.There are many arguments.Science vs religion.A war on who is right.For science tells me how and my faith tells me why. On the subject of bad world:God has no control over our actions.Hence the fact that He gave us free will.Once you realize it,you come to accept the world as it is.Its people and their wicked ways that sin against Him.In the middle of that turmoil He gave His one and only Son as salvation.To save us from ourselves.We inevitably,the human race are the world.So actually God is good,its people that do bad.God is there to take us as we are where we,filthy and dirty.For me I have experienced God through relationship.Not through a bunch of rules and regulations.Ay the beginning it was all rules,but God showed me that by grace He saved me.A word of advice:We as humans don't have all the facts.We know a very small piece of a very large puzzle.Put your faith in the convictions of His word rather then the wisdom of man.Chief Tecumseh said,"Live every day of your life with out the fear of death entering your heart.Love your life,beautify all things in your life make all things beautiful.Find no fault with anyone's religion.Respect their views and demand that they respect yours.Be thankful in the morning,for if you have nothing to be thankful for the problem lies only with yourself.Be always ready to give a sign of acknowledgment,even to an enemy.Be brave when the time comes for you to cross the great divide,don't be like those praying for a little more time,but die a hero going home singing your death song loudly".

 
Tell me Arizona ... aren't you that filthy mouthed poster I've seen on this site. The very same one who's posted an assortment of filthy words with racist views to boot?

Wasn't that you?

Why are you now lecturing us on forms of morality?

Perhaps it's best you rather shut your trap.

Just a suggestion.

Hot potato this one. Religion can neither be proved or disproved. That is a fact! But I have one or two questions.
1) Why can't God come to each human in a vision, prove to them he is real, and then leave them to their own devices for the rest of their lives? If they then decide to sin, they can fairly be punished. He is almighty so the vision thing should be easy enough. 2) According to the bible, the only way into heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as the son of God. What happens to those that have a) Have never heard of Christianity (Amazon tribes etc) or b) people who that belong to another religion and have never even heard of Christianity (A tribesman from the mountains of Afganistan)? Are these people going straight to hell? That does not sound fair to me.
There are many other questions, but I don't have time to get into them now. 

Bwahahahaha farking CC made coffee shoot out me nose ......BB what happens to wee babies ? If they die in utero or dont get baptized ? do they get punished too ?Or if their heathen parents are like oh I dunno buddhists or something.

 Ah but to debate with is easy Cleancut BUT to convince you that is another story and rightly not my job but the Holy Spirits.

Job and GOD had a similar debate thousands of years ago when GOD allowed Jobs children to be murdered, his health to fail (something like AIDs or Ebola), and made him bankrupt even though Job was righteous and did no wrong.

Let us assume that you (as JESUS and Job) were righteous and GOD asked you these questions (as he did Job before he gave him back double of what he had lost), would you be able to answer them.

Job Chapter 38 - Where were you when GOD
vs 1...laid the foundations of the earth?
vs 8...set boundaries for the sea?
vs 9...dressed the earth with clouds?
vs 12...created the mornings?
vs 17...created the gates of death and the doors of the shadows of death?

These are of course rhetorical questions - of course you and Job weren't there BUT JESUS was YET he humbled himself to the cross.

The complete picture is provided by a conversation between Satan and GOD at the beginning of the Chapter

Well, as Martin Luther said, God and the Devil are one and the same   
He also taught, of course, that we are all chosen for salvation. So no matter what we do, or if we believe or not, we can be one of the chosen ones. 

Just a comment on Lutheranism, the bedrock of The Baptist Church ! 

 
That doesn't answer the question, Hakwa.

All those questions just prove His arrogance. He knows he can't be held liable and so does as he pleases ... no matter how evil.

He's a tyrant!!

Sorry Lara ... I can't help myself.

Do you have a family, Hakwa? A family you love with all your heart?

If I came round to your place and murdered them merely to prove a point, how would you feel? 

If I came back later and told you how great and awesome I am ... and then gave you a brand spanking new family ... a replacement family for the ones I murdered ... and then enriched you 100 fold more than what you had ... would you be overjoyed? ... ever so grateful? ... or would you still have a broken heart?

Would you trust me?

Would you believe me if I told you I loved you?

Tell you how I'd feel. I'd still be shattered. No way I'd want these replacements. In fact I'd have my middle finger extended. 

Accepting these replacements would be a betrayal. It would also be saying that what you did to them is okay with me.

How can I live with myself? How can I knowingly worship this monster that you are?

Rather go to hell.

 Yes CC that was me that made all those racial slurs and I am sorry if that offended you.I am by no means a finished product but daily growing and "under construction".God is not a tyrant.He plays no part in evil.He give everybody everyday a free choice to believe in Him,to put their faith in Him.It takes a lot more guts to believe in God then to not believe.To believe in God means to take responsibility and to stand up for what is right.Like I said all the grief and sorrow on this planet in this world right at this very moment accounts only to the actions of man.God played no part in it.Its our own greed that enables every wicked thing to thrive.While God has His arms and tender heart open to receive us like the Father running towards His returning son.You have the right to believe what you like.I wont convince you of anything.Some one else will just convince you other wise.Only conviction can turn a mans heart.Life is a journey CC.Live it fully,enjoy it passionately and at the end don't frett with regrets.

Some of SubstantialBull's vapid and naive comments on this attention-seeking thread almost beggar belief.
Apart from the whiny and insulting title . . . which makes me question the kind of family he was raised in . . . how about this clanger:
"Most people have not developed an inner sense of honesty, or truthfulness. That takes training."

I mean really! What utter nonsense. Everybody . . . and I mean everybody . . . is born with a conscience. Whether they choose to listen to that conscience often determines the kind of person they become but it's not something that gets developed or requires "training". No doubt the "training" that this poor brainwashed sap is referring to is another word for bible study or holding hands in church or some such rubbish . . . but the Happy Clappies (as always) will have you believe that their way is the only way and that's the real reason SubstantialBull started this mealy-mouthed and preachy little thread, so he could squeeze in trite little platitudes like "That's why we go to Him" and "that's why He chose to stand in our place".
And how about this for small-minded stupidity:
"Some people will believe the year 2014 but deny that Christ lived...now isn't that strange."

Actually no, it's not strange at all. Whether people believe in this Jesus myth or not, the fact remains, centuries ago (when people were a lot more stupid) in Western Europe, people were literally forced to believe in Christianity by the Catholic Church and if they didn't then they would have been burned as a heretic. Most people with even a shred of education know that the Church was a lot more powerful back then than it is today and it was those popes and cardinals and whatever who started counting the years from the time of this Jesus person. When I note that the year is 2014, I don't think to myself that it's been 2014 years since Jesus Christ died, I think it's 2014 years since the evil and self-serving zealots have been committing atrocities in his name. That's all. 
Stop being such a small-minded and sanctimonious sheep and rather worry about the fact that a racist, foul-mouthed and hateful little man like ForeverArsehole is singing from the same hymn sheet as you.
This is a rugby message board, not your stupid Happy Clappy church notice board so please, spare us these arrogant and preachy little sermons. There are many Jews, Muslims, Atheists and people of other beliefs who follow rugby and you're not showing them much respect or tolerance by subjecting them to your puerile Christian dogma on a rugby message board. If you want to spout about your beliefs and your childish little world view then go do it on some Happy Clappy website. I'm sure Baboon-ou can point you to several.

 Ah Cleancut but that exact argument used by you is old - it was used in the heavens trillions of years before our known universe was even made - it was first used by Lucifer to get 1/3 of the angels to rebel against GOD and follow him.

Even one of the thiefs hanging beside JESUS at the cross echoed part of the argument - IF YOU ARE GOD why is this happening? Why are we suffering? Why don't you save youself and us while you are at it? The other thief was more to the point - "we are paying for our sins of stealing. JESUS remember me when you come into your Kingdom" JESUS did not reply to the 1st Thief but to the 2nd Thief "I tell you the truth - today you will be with me in Paradise>

Back to Jobs debate.....

 I try not to quote scriptures when talking about my faith to those who are with out.I learned that it puts them off most times.It sort of creates a black and white canvas and then only leads to a legalistic argument.Instead I try to understand before I try to make myself understood.Listening before speaking.Most Atheists in my encounter have a deep rooted sense of loss or pain.It is not mere just a want to not believe but the unbelief is a veil to cover a more desperate plea,a silent but constant hum that calls out,"why did that happen,this is because of that." Most of you dont know this,I doubt if any:Kate is my second wife.I was on tour in Afghan in December 2007 when my first wife Gemma passed away in a car accident.(I am not looking for sympathy)I had every reason to be angry at God and to be honest I was...very angry.I thought how can it be,there I was stuck in a war zone safe...but my wife far removed from actual danger dies at the hand of a foolish driver.I stopped going to church,hell I went a 100% the opposite way.I smoked weed,drank and nearly lost my job.I spent 8 weeks in a military prison for my abuse.Got demoted.Dark times back then.But I decided to let go.To allow God to have His way.Ultimately it was His choice about her time on earth.I accepted that I had no control(btw none of do at all what so ever).I decided to love Him.Freely He gave...lolFaith isn't easey.Faith isn't for cowards or the faint hearted.God restored me.He lead me on a road I never would have taken.Broken alone and angry He stood by me.In the end I know that it was her time.He gives and He takes away.It take great courage to worship God at the darkest of moments. Anyway like I said I am not looking for sympathy.Today I am happily married to Kate.She inspires me to live everyday with my love loud for Him.Love truly conquers every hurt.

 I try not to quote scriptures when talking about my faith to those who are with out.I learned that it puts them off most times.It sort of creates a black and white canvas and then only leads to a legalistic argument.Instead I try to understand before I try to make myself understood.Listening before speaking.Most Atheists in my encounter have a deep rooted sense of loss or pain.It is not mere just a want to not believe but the unbelief is a veil to cover a more desperate plea,a silent but constant hum that calls out,"why did that happen,this is because of that." Most of you dont know this,I doubt if any:Kate is my second wife.I was on tour in Afghan in December 2007 when my first wife Gemma passed away in a car accident.(I am not looking for sympathy)I had every reason to be angry at God and to be honest I was...very angry.I thought how can it be,there I was stuck in a war zone safe...but my wife far removed from actual danger dies at the hand of a foolish driver.I stopped going to church,hell I went a 100% the opposite way.I smoked weed,drank and nearly lost my job.I spent 8 weeks in a military prison for my abuse.Got demoted.Dark times back then.But I decided to let go.To allow God to have His way.Ultimately it was His choice about her time on earth.I accepted that I had no control(btw none of do at all what so ever).I decided to love Him.Freely He gave...lolFaith isn't easey.Faith isn't for cowards or the faint hearted.God restored me.He lead me on a road I never would have taken.Broken alone and angry He stood by me.In the end I know that it was her time.He gives and He takes away.It take great courage to worship God at the darkest of moments. Anyway like I said I am not looking for sympathy.Today I am happily married to Kate.She inspires me to live everyday with my love loud for Him.Love truly conquers every hurt.

 I try not to quote scriptures when talking about my faith to those who are with out.I learned that it puts them off most times.It sort of creates a black and white canvas and then only leads to a legalistic argument.Instead I try to understand before I try to make myself understood.Listening before speaking.Most Atheists in my encounter have a deep rooted sense of loss or pain.It is not mere just a want to not believe but the unbelief is a veil to cover a more desperate plea,a silent but constant hum that calls out,"why did that happen,this is because of that." Most of you dont know this,I doubt if any:Kate is my second wife.I was on tour in Afghan in December 2007 when my first wife Gemma passed away in a car accident.(I am not looking for sympathy)I had every reason to be angry at God and to be honest I was...very angry.I thought how can it be,there I was stuck in a war zone safe...but my wife far removed from actual danger dies at the hand of a foolish driver.I stopped going to church,hell I went a 100% the opposite way.I smoked weed,drank and nearly lost my job.I spent 8 weeks in a military prison for my abuse.Got demoted.Dark times back then.But I decided to let go.To allow God to have His way.Ultimately it was His choice about her time on earth.I accepted that I had no control(btw none of do at all what so ever).I decided to love Him.Freely He gave...lolFaith isn't easey.Faith isn't for cowards or the faint hearted.God restored me.He lead me on a road I never would have taken.Broken alone and angry He stood by me.In the end I know that it was her time.He gives and He takes away.It take great courage to worship God at the darkest of moments. Anyway like I said I am not looking for sympathy.Today I am happily married to Kate.She inspires me to live everyday with my love loud for Him.Love truly conquers every hurt.