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FORUM / RUGBY /  Why Super Rugby isn’t going to be so Super from 2016; By Captain Pugwash, the ROAR

Why Super Rugby isn’t going to be so Super from 2016; By Captain Pugwash, the ROAR

Started by Just_win16 REPLIES226 VIEWS· 27 Oct 2014, 08:41
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
27 Oct 2014, 08:41
#1
27 Oct 2014, 08:41#1

I’m sure we are all well aware of the changes that are going to take place in Super Rugby in 2016. I, for one, am not happy with them.

The introduction of three new teams into the competition won’t only have the affect of diluting the standard of the competition and adding onto an already massive travel schedule, but it will also have a knock on effect on the international season.

There have already been several attempts of expanding the competition, none of which have entirely successful. In 2006, the competition expanded from Super 12 to Super 14, with the inclusion of two new teams.

The Western Force from Perth and the Cheetahs (Cats), who were to draw their players from the Free State and Northern Cape provinces.

Both of these teams have been a relative failure since being introduced. The Force have averaged 11th on the table since 2006, with zero appearances in the playoffs. The Force surprised many this year, just missing out on the finals, but one can’t be blamed for being sceptical about them repeating it again next year.

The Cheetahs have fared only slightly better. Also averaging 11th on the table, they have two appearances in the play offs, both times losing in the opening round.

The Melbourne Rebels were the last team to be introduced, creating Super Rugby. They have been abysmal, averaging 14th on the table with no appearances in the play offs. In the first couple of years they were forgiven for their poor performances, you can’t expect much from a team that’s never played together before, but they’ve had four seasons now with no improvement.

Therefore, the expansion to 18 teams in 2016 is insane. Adding another South African team, the Kings, will only see a repeat of what happened to them in 2014.

They will be the whipping boys of the competition. They will without a doubt finish at or around the bottom of the table. South Africa struggle to field three quality teams, let alone six. The Kings will join the Cheetahs and Lions at the bottom of the table.

The inclusion of an Argentine team is even more baffling. They too will struggle to field a quality team that can compete. This isn’t the biggest problem though. The travel factor is the biggest problem.

Players, particularly South African players who have to travel to both Australia and New Zealand, will now have to travel to Argentina as well.

How are players supposed to recover properly if they are in a plane half the time? This is ridiculous. Considering the standard of Argentine rugby, particularly with their best players in Europe, this type of travel is not worth it.

This won’t only have knock on affect on rest of the competition. As teams struggle to work around this ridiculous travel schedule, players won’t have the time recover properly for the June Internationals and the Rugby Championship. The November tour would also feel the affect.

The best way from Argentina to play this, is for them to try and get a majority of their players Super Rugby contracts, or get a majority of them playing in Europe. Having an Argentine team would be a massive detriment to the competition and the international rugby that comes after it.

The same can be said for Japan. It’s simply not worth it. They will bring nothing to the competition apart from inconvenience and a bonus-point try for the teams that play them.

Now, if I’m going to criticise the new format, I have to provide an alternative. My alternative is to either keep the competition how it is, or have an ITM cup style tournament, with two separate tables and kick out the Rebels, so there are two tables of seven. Or, keep the Rebels, add the Kings to keep the South African’s happy and have two tables of eight.

Equivalent of the premiership table
1. Crusaders
2. Waratahs
3. Sharks
4. Chiefs
5. Brumbies
6. Bulls
7. Highlanders
8. Reds/Hurricanes

Equivalent of the championship table
1. Reds/Hurricanes
2. Stormers
3. Blues
4. Force
5. Cheetahs
6. Lions
7. Rebels
8. Kings

Having a format like this would generate a larger interest in the game, particularly from supporters of the lower ranked teams, for several reasons.

Firstly, more teams are going to be included in play off matches. Teams that regularly finish 8-12th will no longer be sitting out the final part of the season, they will be playing in the semi-finals and finals, fans won’t have to be content with watching the Crusaders, Brumbies, Chiefs, and Waratahs battle it out again.

They can support their team in the finals and experience the excitement of them being promoted to the Premiership table. Add something like the Ranfurly Shield in, and it will actually create excitement. Ranfurly Shield matches are some of the best in the ITM cup, my team never plays in them and I still get excited.

We would still experience the high tempo and high quality nature of Super Rugby that we’ve all come to love, but this will add another level to it.

Add in the fact that the tables will be constantly changing with say, the bottom two teams being relegated and the top two teams of the Championship table being promoted, new teams will get a chance to get to the top every season.

This won’t stop the dominance of the top teams, but it will add something new without the inclusion of more sub standard teams and a ridiculous travel factor.

In conclusion, the addition of an Argentine team and a Japanese team will only serve to weaken Southern Hemisphere rugby.

Only Japan and Argentina benefit from this. South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand gain nothing, or, it will have a detrimental affect on their rugby. What I have proposed above, or something similar, will increase interest in the game while keeping the high standard of tri-nations rugby.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
27 Oct 2014, 08:44
#2
27 Oct 2014, 08:44#2
I have not followed the discussion on the expansion of the s15 as I am only interested in things once the whistle had blown (the game on the field). Everything I see suggests the expansion efforts are a mess. 
I hope it is a case of "chicken little" because they better not screw up the game.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Oct 2014, 08:51
#3
27 Oct 2014, 08:51#3
Kick out the ep queens and Rebels and go back to 14 teams home and away. Everyone is being dictated to by the biggoted anc twits . Tell them where to go.

End of story.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
27 Oct 2014, 09:01
#4
27 Oct 2014, 09:01#4

The truth of the matter is we cannot fill 6 teams, blame it on everyone poaching our players, or even the rich Franchises in SA hogging all the talent. If we wanted to provide quality teams we should be limited to four teams, we all know the sixth team is politically driven.


As for the Super 18, it is going to be a farce for a number of reasons, from what I understand is we only get 3 finalists, between AUstralia and New Zealand they get 5.


You have random matches so the 8 teams that qualify are not playing the same teams in any way what so ever.


But worst of all, is the fact that our teams may now end up playing each other up to 6 times per season.


If you compare this year's currie cup to the Super 18 you have two SA "pools" you play the teams in your pool twice and the other once, that is exactly how Super 18 pools are going to work.


The only difference is that you will play an extra 5 matches against either the Australian conference or NZ conference.


Pl us instead of the Pumas and Griquas you will have a Japanese and Argentine team.


It is going to be a joke.


How SARU could accept this is simply beyond any logic.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Oct 2014, 09:10
#5
27 Oct 2014, 09:10#5
BB the logic is the ep queens had to be accomodated to try and get more black players playing so SA had to have 6 teams - the rest followed from that. 
It's all a result of racist anc pressure. The ep queens finished bottom of the Currie Cup log behind Griquas and the Pumas who nobody would dream of promoting to Super RugbyWhy beat around the bush. We have the sports minister trying to enforce quotas throughout the system. The logic is abundantly clear and its totally racist.
It would be great if overseas countries stood up to the racist anc.

BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
27 Oct 2014, 09:16
#6
27 Oct 2014, 09:16#6

Beeno, the simplest solution is to have closed conferences, let each country "build" their conference to as many as they want.


In fact Sa could have the CUrrie CUp premier division moved to February and use the Currie cup as their Pool rounds, NZ can use the ITM CUp and AUstralia could use the NRC.


Then the top 2 or three teams that qualified out of their conference play a SUper series of 8 to 10 weeks including finals.


That way we get to spend the money on our currie cup teams, put a draft system in place, and slowly build our premier division up to as many strong teams as we can accommodate.  

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Oct 2014, 09:21
#7
27 Oct 2014, 09:21#7
 Great idea BB! Right now they look to be on the wrong track. 
I think though the logic also includes marketing the game to a wider audience.
I am off to an Inve stec pre sentation so cheers for now.
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
27 Oct 2014, 09:31
#8
27 Oct 2014, 09:31#8
Hopefully attendance figures will speak loudest and this farce will be short-lived. One can only hope.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
27 Oct 2014, 09:37
#9
27 Oct 2014, 09:37#9

Pakie, problem is they will sign a five year deal, there is already talk that SANZAR will have to make a ten year commitment and financial aid to help the new Japanese franchise become viable. 


Imagine the damage it can do before new deals are negotiated?

AW
Awesome1Rookie81 posts
27 Oct 2014, 10:00
#10
27 Oct 2014, 10:00#10
 

New Super Rugby format unveiled: 2016 with an 18-team format


South Africa will have two of the four conferences under the new format, with the six local franchises being joined by an Argentine side plus the as yet unconfirmed franchise that could be based anywhere in the world. It would be preferred if the additional franchise was based somewhere roughly on a similar time zone to South Africa, but the main criteria will be money, playing strength/potential and logistics, in that order.

The South African conferences will be made up of four teams each, with the sides playing home and away against each other initially before moving into a five-team cross conference phase of the tournament against teams in the Australasian conferences. The Australasian conferences will be divided in a New Zealand and Australian section made up of five teams each.

After that the teams will play across conference against the other teams in their conference system. In other words, if the Bulls start off in the same conference as the Cheetahs, Kings and the team from Argentina, they will play those teams on a home and away basis at the start of the season and will then play either the five teams in the Australian conference or the New Zealand conference, with two matches away and three at home or vice-versa.

They will then conclude by playing the teams in the other South African conference, eg Stormers, Sharks, Lions and the tto-be-announced team in one off games, with two of those matches being played at home and two away. Who the teams play away and who they play at home will alternate on an annual basis, as will the number of away games when the teams play against Australasian franchises.

There are integrity problems related to the new tournament in that not all teams will play each other and some sides will end up with more difficult schedules than others. For instance, a side will play only against teams in one Australasian conference in a specific year, meaning that the Bulls will face either all the New Zealand teams or all the Australian teams, but there won’t be a mix.

The following year, the team will face the franchises that they didn’t play in the 2016 season. The drawback of this is that in a year where the Australian conference is weaker than the New Zealand one it will mean the sides playing the Australian ones will be advantaged. The New Zealand and Australian teams will also not play home and away against all the other teams in their respective conferences.

However that disadvantage is outweighed by the positives of having fewer games – 15 as against the previous 16 – in the league phase of the competition, and also the significantly diminished travel schedule for the South African teams. Playing two games in Australasia, which means they could be away for as little as one and a half weeks, is a significant step forward in comparison to the current system which sees local sides spending up to five weeks on the road.

South African players are said to be eager to embrace matches in Argentina, which would happen just once a season. It is a relatively short flight from Johannesburg to Buenos Aires, and teams can leave South Africa on a Tuesday and be back home by the following Sunday or Monday.

There will be more games – 44 – in South Africa under the new format, but that is explained by the addition of the sixth franchise. New Zealand and Australia will be hosting slightly fewer games than before.

In the new format eight teams will advance to the finals stage, with four sides playing each other in the quarterfinals, followed by a semifinal and a final.

The new format has been extensively worked through with the player associations in the Sanzar countries and will be welcomed because of the significantly smaller travel component for all players.


NEW SUPER RUGBY FORMAT EXPLAINED

SOUTH AFRICAN CONFERENCES

CONFERENCE 1 (teams as examples, conferences not finalised)
Sharks
Lions
Cheetahs
Argentina team

CONFERENCE 2 
Bulls
Stormers
Southern Kings
Japan

The teams in these conferences will start the season playing within their conference, in other words against the other three teams on a home and away basis. They will then proceed to the next phase of the season, which will see them play either the five teams in the New Zealand conference or the Australian conference.

AUSTRALASIAN CONFERENCES

NEW ZEALAND CONFERENCE
Highlanders
Blues
Crusaders
Chiefs
Hurricanes

AUSTRALIAN CONFERENCE
Rebels
Reds
Waratahs
Western Force
Brumbies

After this phase the teams in SA conference 1 will play against the teams in SA conference 2, meaning another four games, with two of them being played at home and two away.

Eight teams go into Finals phase.

The top four teams will proceed straight to the semifinals, with the other four sides (the means of arriving at those still to be determined) playing in the quarterfinals.

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
27 Oct 2014, 10:07
#11
27 Oct 2014, 10:07#11
That will be a disaster Biltong. Frankly I don't see the point of this competition anymore. It used to be only the top provincial sides in the Sanzar conference competing to see who is best. Every game mattered in the S10 & even the S12. What's the point of adding all these silly little sides that's not going to present any challenge for the title and only adds to the logistical and fatigue nightmares players already have to deal with ?
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
27 Oct 2014, 10:14
#12
27 Oct 2014, 10:14#12
Yes Pakie, the Super is being taken out of Super Rugby, pretty soon they will rename the Competition to "free for all, except nothing comes free"  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Oct 2014, 11:24
#13
27 Oct 2014, 11:24#13
The easiest way, and I have said it before, is to have something similar to the European model. They do not have watered down domestic competitions, like the CC, and they still have ample opportunities to play all their players on all levels. All of the Top14 teams and all of the Aviva Premiership sides play in the European competitions and the sides that play in the European competitions are the same sides that play in the domestic competitions. The reason is that the do not play one competition and then follow it up with the next one like we have with the CC that is played after the S15.


They have "blocks" were all the European clubs play either domestic rugby or European competitions. They have equal "blocks" were they have the 6N.


It may not be everybody's cup of tea but I prefer it that way. You never get fed up with watching the same competition over and over. By the end of the S15, I was so fed-up with Super Rugby, I just wanted to see the end of it. The same goes for the CC.


With the European rugby you get to see a few weeks of domestic rugby, followed by two rounds of European rugby, then domestic rugby again and then some 6N thrown in as well and they all culminate in all the finals, domestic and European, not long after the final shots of the 6N. To top it all, there are more sides playing in all those competitions than the SH have in their competitions. You have 40 sides playing in the European competitions (20X Champions Cup and 20X Challenge Cup) and there is promotion possibilities between the two tiers, which - together with the finals - adds another two nail-biting games at the end of the season. Super Rugby currently has 15 teams in total with 18 in total from 2016. The Aviva Premiership has 12 sides, the Pro12 has 12 sides and the Top14 has 14 sides playing compared to the CC Premier Division with eight sides. I don't even know how many sides play in the NZ and Aus domestic competitions.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Oct 2014, 11:24
#14
27 Oct 2014, 11:24#14
 I cannot understand why the SH did not take the route followed by the NH cpountries in having the following format:-
*   The Champions Cup; and*   The Challenges Cup
There could then be play-offs in October- November/  end January/early February  - after the ITM, CC  and local competitions hav been concluded and when the national teams are on tour - so as  to reduce the number of teams on the following basis:-
*   The teams would be in three divisions of 6 teams each - with four teams in each division going through to the Champions Cup  still comprising the three exositing conferences - this need not eb on a hoe and away basis; and
*    The six teams would play each other on a home and away basis for the Challenge Cup
The 12 Champions Cup contenders will then play each other on a home and away basis as well.    That would mean 6 games within conferences and 8 games on a home and away basis against other conferences.  
That will reduce the number of games from the present 16 to 14 in the Champions Cup competition and 10 in the Challenges competiition.   In the second year the six teams at the bottom of the various conference logs will then play the six teams on top of the log in the Challenges Cup to get thorugh to the Champions Cup for the next season.
That would mean that the six top teams in the Challenges Cup would essentially entail one team from each of the Conferences and would qualify on the following basis -
*   4 teams from the three main contenders - namely New Zealand, Australia and SA; and
*    the six teams would be identified and would also play each other on a home and away basis to determine the log positions and winners of the Challenges Cup.
That would mean that we startt off with the following basis:-
South African Conference 
6 local teams
Autralian Conference
5 local teams and Argentina team
New Zealand Conference       
5 local teams and Japanese team

There is every chance that the Japanese team - especially if they comprise both contracted players of the local clubs and members of the Japanese national team could go through to the NZ condreence as the fourth team in that conference - and the same applies to the Aussie coinference in any event.
The qualifying play-offs  would basically be between local teams involving minimal travel with only the Aussie and New Zealand conferences having to travel outside of their county.   
The system would uphold the quality of the top selections in the Super Rugby and reduce the competition to worthwhile opponents - making it more competitive since teams will have to perform against the top teams on both a home and away basis.  
Not as complicatd as it sounds - since the final conference teams will be determined before the main games commences the last two weekends in February.                     .
CL
ClaydogClub Pro691 posts
27 Oct 2014, 14:14
#15
27 Oct 2014, 14:14#15
I am going to enjoy next years super rugby like it will be my last. It sounds like it could be. Sanzar need to pull back and have a good hard look at what they are proposing and the effect it could have on rugby. I would not like to see pools or conferences. Just go back to a smaller number of teams from the three nations and play. Aus doesn't have the depth for five teams. 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
28 Oct 2014, 03:02
#16
28 Oct 2014, 03:02#16
I think the growth is inevitable for more ticket sales and television viewership. Conferences are the way to go, but the new setup is going to be poor at least initially .
It will be interesting to see the Japanese team. Will this be full of SA/kiwi/OZ players looking to earn double the money playing Superrugby for Japan or for their own country.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Oct 2014, 05:43
#17
28 Oct 2014, 05:43#17
 Sharkbok
It is weird - but I think half the Ja[anese side wi;ll b made up of contracted foreign players - thaat is if their clubs are willing to release them.   They will not include for instance Francois Steyn in their side - since he is too poor to play in Super Rugby - but they have emple forwards to include and money talks.   However, most of thei contracted players are over the useful age limit and that would count against them in the Super series.  
— END OF THREAD —

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