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FORUM / RUGBY /  Why we are so average

Why we are so average

Started by Saffolk 46 REPLIES782 VIEWS· 27 Jun 2016, 16:10
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SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Jun 2016, 16:10
#1
27 Jun 2016, 16:10#1
 

We are average to poor  right now as we are not selecting the correct forwards who would give us the go forward and impose themselves physically. Right now, all we are achieving is parity in the forwards and with that comes closely fought test matches. Playing at home against a depleted Irish side should have yielded three convincing wins but instead we snuck in a series win by fluke. We only managed 30 min of convincing rugby in the whole series.

 

Our backs are getting no platform to work off, I don’t recall a single ball going down the line in Saturdays test. We need to be selecting the correct forwards, we need a balanced backrow for a start, we can’t begin to dominate with an openside playing blindside in Kolisi, a lightweight 8 who is great with ball in hand but offers no grunt, a hooker that is leaps behind our best in terms of physicality and a loosehead who is no longer the best in his position.

 

Beast had a good test, but Kitshoff was far better when he came on, so has to start. He is potentially the best loosehead in the game. Strauss is a good player, but does not possess the raw power of Bismark that would add to our physical edge, same applies with regards to Marx who is the future. Bismark should be starting with Marx on the bench. Etzebeth, PSDT and Lood are spot on as options at lock, one of the few positives over the past year in terms of our side. All physical and great athletes.

 

Louw is a complete passenger in the side, have never rated him, one steal per game and no contribution in general play is not what we want from our openside. Kriel in his 20min made more of an impact that Louw did in 3 tests. It’s a no brainer, move on from average Louw in total, start Jaco Kriel at 6 and use Kolisi as an option off the bench as an impact player. I rate Kolisi but he is not a 7, just like Louw is not a 6. This infatuation with Louw is costing us as it means we have to play a player like Kolisi out of position at 7 in order to fulfil the quota and in the process deprive the backrow of balance. It would be better to start Kolisi at 6, his usual spot and play a true 7. But that is compromising the side as Jaco Kriel one of our best players just simply has to start.

 

We need a big physical bruiser at 7 in the Alberts mould. We have options to burn in Jake White’s favourite player in Jacques du Plessis or find of the Super series in Kirtsen at the Bulls or the freakish physicality of the du Preez twins. Mostert and PSDT also offer options here although I think of late PSDT is too big for that role.

 

At 8 we need physicality and a ball player……for me Marcel Coetzee would be perfect here, Arno Botha is getting back to his best, Mtembu has always impressed me and is back from injury. Notshe could be our new Skinstad in that role, but he will need to bulk up a little.

 

In the backs, Mapoe has had very few opportunities but Jessie Kriel is a far better option. While JP won MOM, he has not impressed me. We could do with some x factor on the one wing in Senatla, Sergeal Petersen or Kolbe. Combrink will make the other wing spot his own.

 

The Faf/Jantjies halfback combo needs to be invested in, they showed some great touches at times. We need more of the de Allende in the second half of the second test. Willie needs to recharge his battery.

 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Jun 2016, 16:38
#2
27 Jun 2016, 16:38#2
 Our national side is average because our rugby in general is average to poor. No need for long-winded essays. We haven't been competitive in Super Rugby for ages, yet we think that we should rule the rugby world. At present we are in third spot. I shudder to think where we would be after the RC. 
You cannot build a Rolls Royce by using Dacia parts.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Jun 2016, 16:49
#3
27 Jun 2016, 16:49#3

Oh what utter rubbish......the Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Stormers have been very competitive this Super series


You are speaking a load of horse shit  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Jun 2016, 17:26
#4
27 Jun 2016, 17:26#4
DaveJust a few things about what you wrote above.  Your reading of the loosies are ony partially true  and contains a serious deficiency as well.   A slow bruiser at 7 is an abomination - we need a player who is capable to follow the ball and to play a lock in that position is - with respect - real BS,   The second difference I have is in respect of Jantjies - he was way below par from what is expected from a flyhalf.  I would definitely bring Goosen on board as a player.   It is clear that Coetzee has a bad effect on Jantjies - he was no better than he was in 2013 for the Stormers - but that is not in count here - Jantjies did nothing positive 99% of the time.   One inside pass and ne cross kick that worked out in three tests is what is on the positive side.   On the negative side his kicking out of hand was poor and his defense worse.   The Springboks had only 32% possession in the test on Saturday - reason, whenever the forwards got possession Jantjies made an aimless kick handing possession over to the Irish.  Not a test quality flyhalf I am afraid.        
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Jun 2016, 17:48
#5
27 Jun 2016, 17:48#5
"Oh what utter rubbish......the Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Stormers have been very competitive this Super series


You are speaking a load of horse [removed] " 
Oh really? Well, for starters, the Bulls and the Stormers have had an extremely lucky draw in that they somehow managed to sidestep playing any NZ sides. As it stands the Stormers, our second best team, are lying 6th based on log points and that is without playing any of the NZ teams. The Sharks are 7th and the fecking Bulls are down in 10th place and also without playing any NZ sides.  Should we discuss the remainder of our teams? 
You should stop smoking that sh!t, mate. It is damaging your brain cells.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Jun 2016, 18:19
#6
27 Jun 2016, 18:19#6
 Lack of superior young players.....look use your brain. We are second tier at age level. We won once in the last 10 years....at home, which makes a big difference to youngsters. We lose at S15 and have done no matter who the coach is....since the last great Bools team.
In fact we are most competitive at 7s, because our small agile players, who would be wiped in senior rugby, function well at 7s.

We havent got one backline player who would even be considered for NZ, although Faf might be in their future stream.

You and Mike have blustered endlessly about the senior players. Yes they were less by the time 2015 came along, declining. But they still knew how to compete....Lomp doesn't, Kolisi doesn't, Jantjies doesn't , Kriel doesn't.

We were nursing along an old but great cadre of players for one last stand at the WC. And you stupid bug.gers never got it. You wanted change. Well we have change, live with it.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,267 posts
27 Jun 2016, 18:20
#7
27 Jun 2016, 18:20#7
I am negative about the rugby played at the moment. Only the Lions seem like a professional team capable of doing more than sumo wrestling. 
If we played like we did against the Irish, the All Black are going to put 40 points on us.
The Springbok breakdown is a joke- and any team could compete with us in this area.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Jun 2016, 18:22
#8
27 Jun 2016, 18:22#8
 In addition to trying to build a Rolls Royce from Dacia parts we have a woodwork teacher as our chief engineer and his assistants have all failed grade five Home Economics. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Jun 2016, 18:23
#9
27 Jun 2016, 18:23#9
 OK. Maybe that is a bit harsh. Proudfoot has probably also passed Woodwork. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Jun 2016, 19:32
#10
27 Jun 2016, 19:32#10
 Mozart - nursing a long list of under-performing players based on reputation was the wrong way to g o.  And what did they produce in the WC.   The "most experienced team ever" lost against Japan.   They were so bad that Meyer was forced to play a bunch of inexperienced players to replace some of the worst of the experienced players.   What Meyer did was a crime against rugby.  Champion teams are built up over a period of years and by the time the WC comes around they have the experience to win.   That Meyer squad was not one that would win anything and that is a fact.     
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Jun 2016, 23:17
#11
27 Jun 2016, 23:17#11
 Oh balls....the Japanese test was lost by Coenie and Kriel. You now have your team without  Habana, Jean, F du Preez, Jannie, Matfield, Bismarck and Schalk....congratulations.....and good luck, you are going to need it.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Jun 2016, 09:08
#12
28 Jun 2016, 09:08#12
Look Mozart - you can BS some of us - but not the thinking people on this site.   Go through the team that day and everyone of the experienced players were shit-poor.  That included Jean de Villiers, Pienaar, Jannie, Matfield, BISMARCK and BURGER.   The latter two in capital letters with Bismarck giving away four penalties and Burger failing in his role as stand-in flyhalf by losing balls 4 times when passed to him.   Pienaar and Bismarck in fact added 12 points to the Japanese score that day through converted penalties.  But then you never think before you write your BS on this site  - so think about that for a change.    

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
28 Jun 2016, 09:47
#13
28 Jun 2016, 09:47#13
 The side that lost against a depleted Irish side, at home nogal, had no JDV, Pienaar, JdP, Matfield, BdP,or Burger in the side. Not even Habana. That side, though, had Loodvoet, PSDT, Beast, Lambie, Kriel, Etzebeth, et al in their team but obvioulsy they had no share in the loss.
The side who lost to Ireland in Ireland had no all the favourite young floavours of the month in it. Pollard, Cobus Reinach (remember him, or have you already forgotten your most favourite scrumhalf ever?) Lambie, Kriel, Willie, Coenie, et al.
The side that narrowly lost to the ABs in the 2015 RWC semi final, though, also "....included Jean de Villiers, Pienaar, Jannie, Matfield, BISMARCK and BURGER."
Your constant harping on certain test are boring. The Japan test has taken over from the 2013 Ellis Park test. Isn't it time that the 2016 Irish fiasco take over from the Japan test. Oh wait. That would mean that you would have to forget about Matfield, Jannie, Bismarck, Habana, Pienaar, etc. Fortunately Morne Steyn was still lurking in the background to haunt you. 
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
28 Jun 2016, 10:33
#14
28 Jun 2016, 10:33#14
"Japanese test was lost by Coenie and Kriel???? Moz, I know you are just trying to drive home a point here, but seriously, the whole team played like shart that day. Yes Kriel missed a vital tackle, but if the team had played even semi decently, that missed tackle would have made no difference to the result of the game. We should've pummeled Japan by 30+ points. Trying to blame one or two players for THAT performance is short sighted. 
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
28 Jun 2016, 10:52
#15
28 Jun 2016, 10:52#15
As a collective SA were arrogant, underdone with no reasonable game plan and were out played and more importantly OUT COACHED in there defeat to Japan. I'm sorry to say but they breed them dom in the good ol RSA.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Jun 2016, 11:45
#16
28 Jun 2016, 11:45#16
 

Mike/Moz/Vlag

 

Your rugby ignorance is hardly worthy a response, but to label the likes of du Plessis, Kirsten or the du Preez twins as too slow for 7 is insulting. You are clearly too stupid to work out that we are only achieving parity in the forward exchanges because we are not selecting the correct players. A big bruiser is needed at 7, end of story. As for Jantjies, he has been one of our best players in the tests, his inside pass to set up a try and the cross kick to set up JP’s is what this lad brings to the game, but you are too fucking stupid to work that out. He has been sensational for the Lions this Super series. You my friend know fuck all about rugby and I mean that sincerely.

 

Vlag you are speaking a load of shit……the sides I mentioned are only a game less in terms of points and wins than the top Kiwi sides in the Super series. I can live with that given we are in our first year of new coaches and very young sides.

 

Moz as per usual you are speaking a load of fucking rubbish and your anti our young players is nauseating. I am not interested in the latest age group blunder, that was all about the quota and nothing to do with merit, prior to that, we have been up there with the best and that’s a fact. As for the U18 Bok side, that was an unbeaten side until two years ago when they lost to England for the first time. First time the side has EVER lost. They beat England this year. Get your facts straight

 

As for our senior sides, as I pointed out above to clueless Vlag, our Super sides have done well this year, beating some of the top Kiwi sides and playing good rugby thanks to new coaches and an endless stream of classy young players. We lost under useless Meyer thanks to investment in a bunch of washed up hasbeens…..the idiot only woke up too late to the fact that it was about the youngsters as evidenced in the WC semi loss to NZ by 2 points, thanks to the stupidity of so called experienced man Matfield.

 

As for our young backs vs NZ…….Faf is a close second to the world’s best in Smith, similar players. Pollard is better than Barrett, Cruden or Sop…..Jantjies has been as good as Barrett, better than Cruden………same applies to Lambie. The Kiwi’s don’t have a 12, if Crotty who is their best then saying de Allende, Serfontein, Odendaal or Frans Venter would not make their team is laughable. Crotty is utterly useless, robotic with limited talent, anything but athletic. Our 12’s are far, far superior.

 

At 13 Fek is their main man, great player but not better than Jessie Kriel, who against Nonu and Smith has made more of an impression than Fek ever has against good test opposition. The Kiwi’s have some good depth coming through at 13, but then so do we in Vortser, Swanepoel and Janse v/Rensburg.

 

On the wing Combrink is as good as anything the Kiwi’s have to offer and if Coetzee actually invested in the players that have made an impression like Ulengo or brought in the x factor that is Senatla, we to could have a Milner Skud on board

 

Willie is as good as Smith or Dagg, in fact Willie at his best is better than them.

 

Moz you are speaking kak…….our youngsters are better than they have ever been…..we have talent to burn……at least Coetzee has identified them, that’s a start……he now needs to actually start selecting them. His biggest let down is not selecting a true 7, he needs to revisit this and he needs to move on from Strauss at 2, with Bismark and Marx the obvious choices, a bruiser at 7, there are plenty of options here, a more physical 8, Kitshoff for Beast, Jaco Kriel for average Louw and restore the de Allende/Kriel centre combo.

 

Coetzee is struggling right now…..as his forwards are not winning the collisions, only achieving parity…….replace Beast, Strauss, Kolisi, Louw and Whitely with Kitshoff, Bismark, Jaco Kriel, Jacques du Plessis and Marcel Coetzee and we have the makings of a physically dominating pack……with the likes of Marx, Strauss, Marcel v/d Merwe, Nyakane, Thomas du Toit, Willemse, Lood, Snyman and a host of loosie options to draw on as back-ups

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
28 Jun 2016, 12:02
#17
28 Jun 2016, 12:02#17
 "Vlag you are speaking a load of [removed]……the sides I mentioned are only a game less in terms of points and wins than the top Kiwi sides in the Super series. I can live with that given we are in our first year of new coaches and very young sides."
Bull twang. Those players are all experienced Super Rugby campaigners and we were told that the new coaches would bring an immediate improvement. Ludeke, et al, had to go asap and any new coach would have an immediate turn around. It was never going to happen. In addition, new coaches will help you feck all if you don't have the players who can do the job. Fact is that those are the log positions and the neither the Bulls nor the Stormers have been tested against NZ sides. I suspect that accounts for them not being lower down the log. Face it mate, our cupboard is bare and it has been for some time.
"As for our senior sides, as I pointed out above to clueless Vlag, our Super sides have done well this year, beating some of the top Kiwi sides and playing good rugby thanks to new coaches and an endless stream of classy young players."
Wrong. One of our sides have been doing well. As I have said elsewhere. You should be careful with that sh1t you are smoking.
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
28 Jun 2016, 12:07
#18
28 Jun 2016, 12:07#18
 Saffex, you do spew forth utter tripe. According to you, every Bok is a freak and better than his AB counterpart!!Only one thing missing for your freakish Boks........wins against those ABs....
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
28 Jun 2016, 12:46
#19
28 Jun 2016, 12:46#19
 Jaaaaa but it is the coach, Moolaa, it is the coach. Bugger all to do with the quality of our players.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Jun 2016, 15:04
#20
28 Jun 2016, 15:04#20
First of all the Japanese test was a freak. A tail of the probability distribution event as demonstrated by our subsequent wins and bronze medal finish.
But it is used to beat up our vets. They played badly and weren't that hyped for the game...it was supposed to be a training field run. Not smart on their part, not smart coaching.
Nevertheless This was the situation. We were three points ahead with 5 minutes to go, when we had another poor scrum with Coenie, who then made up for it be getting a yellow card. After which Kriel had a simple tackle to make and he botched it.
Our vets played badly along with our newbies....Coenie and Kriel made fatal mistakes in the last crucial 3 minutes which lost the test.

It's a dead subject, but because it's always used to bash our older players as if there were better options out there.....it needed to be said.
Coenraad Oosthuizen receives a yellow card78'Japan still attacking.77'Japan still attacking.75'The Brave Blossoms apply huge pressure at the scrum and force South Africa to clear; Japan look to counter immediately and threaten down the right touchline.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Jun 2016, 15:05
#21
28 Jun 2016, 15:05#21

These thick pricks thinks its got nothing to do with the coach......but Meyer was of course correct in investing in Kirchner, Mvovo, Fourie, Jean, Olivier, Morne, du Preez, Pienaar, Steenkamp, Brits, CJ v/d Linde, Heinke v/d Merwe, Bakkies, Matfield, Alberts, Louw, Juan Smith and Schalk.....really clever insightful stuff from Meyer


And what does Coetzee do, he selects Mvovo, JP, Mapoe, Strauss, Beast, Kolisi at 7 and Louw......clearly by no stretch the best in their positions.....but no its the players, not the coaches


How stupid are you lot?


Moolaa you dumb fuck, the reason we don't beat you can be found in the above......hope that helps?

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Jun 2016, 15:11
#22
28 Jun 2016, 15:11#22
 So the forwards are terrible because Kolisi is at 7 not 6......and Louw was selected.

And the backs were terrible because Mapoe was selected over the invisible man.

Those massive errors caused our poor performance . Clueless stuff Dave.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Jun 2016, 18:08
#23
28 Jun 2016, 18:08#23

What part did you miss in me saying Kitshoff should be ahead of Beast, Bismark ahead of Strauss, Kriel ahead of Louw, a bruiser at 7 ahead of Kolisi and a more physical 8



That's a collective.....geez don't you read.....we achieved parity against Ireland in the physical stakes.....we should have dominated them and the reason above is why we did not.


In the backs, yes the dynamic Jessie Kriel has to replace Mapoe.....you need your eyes tested.....what part of Kriel ripping through the RC opposition did you miss, not to mention more clean breaks made than any other centre in the WC and some good outings in the Super series......we should be investing in those numbers instead of being stupid enough to find fault in a real talent  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Jun 2016, 18:49
#24
28 Jun 2016, 18:49#24
Mozart - If you do not recognize that Meyer made a total hash of preparing a squad for the RWC last year - nothing will ever  hit home with you - even though it hit you in the face.   
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Jun 2016, 18:53
#25
28 Jun 2016, 18:53#25
 Dave  - Your story about Bruisers at 7 have been around for years and we struggled with under-performers for years.   It has not hit home - but slow loosies has been our downfall for years.   Bruisers who cannot defend and protect and recover breakdown ball has been a major part of the problem.  You are talking utter crap.   When a lock arrives at breakdown points before the loosies - you must certainly accept that you are talking sh!t.   Sorry to disagree - but we must have loosies at 7 - not clumsy and slow players.     
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
28 Jun 2016, 21:23
#26
28 Jun 2016, 21:23#26
 So Saffex, Willie at his best is better than Smith or Dagg?I rest my case....
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Jun 2016, 21:36
#27
28 Jun 2016, 21:36#27
 Jesse Kriel is just the new JJ....he has nothing JJ never had which wasn't much beyond a decent turn of pace.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,267 posts
28 Jun 2016, 21:40
#28
28 Jun 2016, 21:40#28
Jessie Kriel has the potential to be one of the best outside centre ever for South Africa. I seem to remember Meyer saying that before Japan beat South Africa.
He should have stayed at fullback- where he was alright with some extra space.
JJ was wasted at centre.  Again it was only Saffex and Meyer that maintained this belief that JJ and Kriel are centres

DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
29 Jun 2016, 01:24
#29
29 Jun 2016, 01:24#29
 "So Saffex, Willie at his best is better than Smith or Dagg"?
Willie as I've said many times, is overrated, for a fullback he is a poor out of hand kicker and his option taking is dreadful, least of all is his chip kicking in the red zone. I'm not sure why South Africans stil l hang with him, he wouldn't make my squad.
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
29 Jun 2016, 03:06
#30
29 Jun 2016, 03:06#30
Dave/Saffex or whoever you wish to be known as,Just an observation, you really need to focus more on the topic at hand rather than hurling insults and abuse wherever you dare to tread. It's very easy to throw insults from a keyboard, I bet your'e just a very insecure sensitive little man desperate for attention. Your opinion is valuable, but it's just that, like everyone else. And I mean this with the utmost respect.   
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 10:32
#31
30 Jun 2016, 10:32#31
MonsterBok, who the fuck are you anyway, I don't need some wannabe telling me how to conduct myself you ignorant prick.....now fuck off  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 10:34
#32
30 Jun 2016, 10:34#32
Moooooooo laa......to answer your question......without doubt, Willie at his best is better than Dagg, by a country mile......Smith would be a close call......I'll throw even in there.....with a leaning towards Willie......at his best he is simply unstoppable 
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
30 Jun 2016, 10:55
#33
30 Jun 2016, 10:55#33
Saffex,As long as your message to me is with respect!I reached out to you, to offer you love in your time of need. If you honestly think that Willie at his best is better than Dagg, I'm afraid not even my love could help you.
 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 11:06
#34
30 Jun 2016, 11:06#34

Monstertwat.......do you honestly think I give a toss about what you think.....who are you anyway.....are you one of the regulars on here?


As for Willie vs Dagg......no contest at all......Willie wins it hands down, maybe not on current form but over their careers.....its not even close


Give your love to someone who gives a toss or to someone who would oblige your need for man love  

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
30 Jun 2016, 11:53
#35
30 Jun 2016, 11:53#35
 Saffex, you've just blown the miniscule amount of integrity you had left with this bizarre statement....and before you say it, I give a toss what I say....
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 12:18
#36
30 Jun 2016, 12:18#36
Moolaa......I wont sleep at night knowing you think Dagg and Smith are better than Willie.......tough shit......I don't give a toss. Willie wins it for me and nothing your ignorant gob has to say will change that fact......just like I believe a whole host of our players are better than yours......we just sadly don't have a Hansen on board.  
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
30 Jun 2016, 12:36
#37
30 Jun 2016, 12:36#37
I see Saffex has a sense of humor regards wee Willie 
Willie must have been good once but must have missed that. Anyway, even if he was good once it's all about the now & he's having a terrible run of bad form whereas Dagg & B. Smith are soaring high.
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
30 Jun 2016, 13:16
#38
30 Jun 2016, 13:16#38
To even suggest that whimsical Willie is in the same class as the consistently brilliant Ben Smith is an insult. I also can't recall Willie doing a demolition job on any side like the one Dagg did on Wales last weekend. Anyone can feel free to refresh my memory.
Willie has had influential games for the Boks, but he is nearly always like a pendulum swinging between the precipice of disaster and the mountain of genius, these days tending to get stuck at the former for an uncomfortable amount of time. A four seasons in a game type of fellow. 
I'd have Dagg and Smith ahead of him any day of the week.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Jun 2016, 13:46
#39
30 Jun 2016, 13:46#39
Pakie go shove your insult up your arse  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
30 Jun 2016, 14:35
#40
30 Jun 2016, 14:35#40
 Haaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaaaaa!!!
Willie better than Smith and Dagg??
Good one, Dave.
I must remember that one. Will have my mates rolling on the floor on Saturday. 


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