Will they depower the scrum? Trying to get rid of yellow carding props from being dominated in the scrum

So just came across an article that they all be taking this rule to the IRB to discuss on how to stop yellow carding players for poor scrumming. What transpired was that the boks completely destroyed Ireland and according to the rules there should have been more cards but the refs on the day felt that Ireland would be without their pack and that it would have had to go to uncontested scrum.

What many people forget is that if you can not field enough players to contest a scrum then you automatically lose a player. This is why Rassie always opted for swing props that can play both side and why Jan Hendrik stocks has gone up. That he can play both Hooker and Loosehead, giving him 3 hookers on the day or 3 Looseheads, depends on how you want to position it.

However, how often do we see a scrum getting shunted back 5 meters, before it starts falling apart. South Africa is the only team that can shove another team off their ball and this is in the era where the scrum half puts the ball under the locks feets and the fact that the 8th man can now puts his hands in the scrum. You use to get blown up for that, I know, I use to play 8 and I got blown up once or twice for not picking the ball up when it was under my feet.

What should change?

1. Should it be three scrums and penalty try? So much time is being lost on constant resets.
2. How many times can a team be cynical?

The answer is simple.

1. Go back to letting hookers be hookers, they need to hook the ball. This skew feeds needs to end as it removes the contest.
2. 5 Meter scrum rule - If the infringement is a meter out then let it be a meter out instead of 5 meters. That way the attacking team can get a push over scrum. We saw Wiese managing to get his paw on the ball, but just.
3. Penalty tries - Use them more often to punish the team for playing cynical. Lots of time is being wasted with scrum resets, over and over again. I think the boks spend about 20 min with about 7 scrums in one sequence of play.
4. Don't remove players from the field. It destroys the game and the contest. Penalising a team with 7 points is big enough. If they keep infringing in the 5 meter line, then penalise the player with a penalty try. They do it when you stick a paw, knocking the ball on, or when you perform and illegal tackle with the shoulder. Try should go to the last player holding onto the ball.
5. Don't give automatic 7 points, Try is awarded perpendicular to where the foul was committed and still allow the kicker to convert the try. Only in extreme case award it under the post.

In conclusion, make a scrumming a contest again, remove the 5 meter try line to allow for proper push over tries. If the team commits repeated fouls at scrum time, don't give several warning, 1 warning and that's it.

My final thought on front row players, only remove a front row when his negative play deemed to be dangerous. The most venerable person is the hooker and the props in this scenario and if a prop is deliberately folding in or put another player at risk, then it should be seen the same as a croc role and that player should get off the field

We should go back to the old days where locks weren’t lifted and the jump was a key skill. And in scrums, put the ball in straight so hookers become hookers again and the benefit of a stronger scrum is a tighthead. I can’t see any benefit to the changes that crept into the game.

The law about feeding straight actually hasn't changed, for some reason it just kinda got ignored in the officiating to the point where no one cares anymore. It's now come up again in conversation after the Ireland game so we may see changes in how that is officiated.

I agree with no cards for scrummagers who are simply overpowered. It serves no purpose. Having to pack down in another scrum is probably worse punishment anyway.

Agreed Pakie it’s stupid that a prop is carded for being overpowered

One would swear bringing on a replacement prop and being one forward down in the scrums thanks to the card, would improve their scrum chances? Dumb rule that needs to be binned

No to Moz’s call for no support in the line outs - line outs back then were a joke, made the game look unprofessional, much like to old scrum engage

What getting rid of the 5 meter rule, that is a long way to push somebody over the a try.

Some how the maul has still survived which is probably one of the hardest weapons to stop in the game if done correctly and we see some many people blown up for tripping and bringing the maul down, being carded, penalty tries galore from it.

Where as a scrum is a real test of a packs dominance and technical capabilities.

Those of us that played in the forwards, the amount of hours that was put into scrumming correctly just to ge that once inch or a good hook.

So why not feed the ball 1 meter from the line instead of 5 meters? We will see a lot more 8 man tries like we use to.

I agree with Mozart.

Good girl becs, I owe you one agree….just name your topic.

I was listening to Eggchasers podcast on Spotify and they were discussing depowering the scrum and I liked JB's idea of instead of yellow carding a prop cos how is that gonna help the weaker scrum?

Instead the stronger scrum drops one of their pack into the backline and the weaker scrum remain 8 but have to drop a backline player until the next break in play. If they still cannot compete, drop another back and dominant scrum drop another forward into the backline. Results could be a 6 vs 9 man scrum with a 9 v 5 backlines. The incentive would then be to play away from the base and make use of the advantageous numbers. Added jeopardy could be letting the dominant scrum choose which backs the opposition lose.

Way too technical...we need simple rules.

No that won’t work because then you are taking away the power of the dominant scrum

Nah easy. Strong scrum- one less in scrum but keeps 15. Weak scrum keeps 8 in scrum but plays with 14 till next break in play.

I see no reason to do anything about the scrums apart from getting the feed straight again.

Maybe, if anything, limit the number of scrums you can take off scrum penalties so we don't have that ridiculous 8 minutes of scrums on the same spot again. Maybe say you can take another scrum off a scrum penalty once, but then the next scrum penalty you need to kick for touch or poles or tap. In other words use the advantage in a practical way instead of just forcing one penalty after the other, or lose it.

I think that forcing the straight feed and hook would make things worse and sometimes dangerous as the team feeding the ball only has the two props holding the weight while the hooker strikes. If that team is already under the pump it becomes dangerous.

I tend to agree with that, Xavi. I also thought when the pundits who were bothered by the Bok scrum started harping on the straight feed that that wasn't necessarily going to help the struggling side. A lot of clutching at straws going on out there after the Ireland game.

But then they should probably either change the law about the feed or apply it. I see the law allows the scrummie to align his inside shoulder with his side in the scrum, so it's not really going down the middle to begin with anyway.

Did they change rules of the game when the Ozzies were dominating cricket or when nobody could beat the Lakers?

This discussion is only happening because of how dominant the Boks are.

What all of this is advocating for is SBMM(Skill Based match making) - A system that seeks to circumvent dominance by balancing outcomes through altering the rules of engagement.

I'm warning you, it's a curse and once the virus takes hold it will ruin everything it touches.

Dominance must be rewarded.

Let's remember that any team could pick bigger locks and loosies and put more weight in their scrum. They choose not to because those heavier guys are not necessarily better at the rest of the game.

I'm not saying that weight always equals scrum improvement but it does help a lot.

Any test side could improve their scrum. They might be see drastic drop in the rest of their performance but the scrum will be better.

...and that's their problem.

Same as when they changed the law about a scrum being taken off a free kick after the Boks called that scrum against France in the 2023 RWC quarters.

I'm warning you, it's a curse and once the virus takes hold it will ruin everything it touches.

As Nigel Owens said in the wake of all this depower the scrum crap: “Keep meddling with the game, and you will destroy it.”

The good thing is that the ex players, who now have a much bigger voice, thanks to social media, are vehemently against depowering the scrum.

I listen to all the rugby pods while I work and all the way from Big Jim to Marshal and Jean DV, it's common sense on top of common sense.

Even when they disagree about an event or a decision, there is logic and it's not driven by greed or some woke nonsense.

Honestly, I think ex players should play a much bigger role in the future if the game than these behind the scenes, ivory tower dwelling, money grabbing, beyond reproach suits that think they're the be all and end all.