FIXTURESNo upcoming fixtures — check back soon.
FORUM / RUGBY /  World Cup disaster looming for quota Bok?

World Cup disaster looming for quota Bok?

Started by Beeno127 REPLIES1,158 VIEWS· 05 Dec 2017, 18:11
SHAREXFACEBOOKWHATSAPPTELEGRAMREDDITLINKEDIN
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
05 Dec 2017, 18:11
#1
05 Dec 2017, 18:11#1

Thought this article would serve two purposes. One the constraints Alistair is under and two - get that mampara crusader fan a little wiser - if that is possible!

They didnt fire Alistair after last year dismal results so will they do it now?

pringbok coach Allister Coetzee admits he has made mistakes, but not ever on purpose or because he “doesn’t know what is going on.”

Coetzee mounted a firm defence of his selection policy, which has been widely criticised of late, and believes he has given more than enough opportunities to fringe players during the recently completed Northern Hemisphere tour.

The public sentiment may be the opposite, especially with players such as Lukhanyo Am getting three minutes of game time in a four-week tour, and Louis Schreuder nine. But Coetzee is adamant that he is fulfilling every part of his contract in terms of objectives for the 2019 season.

“Hindsight is a perfect science and every time I do make the selections, I make sure it is for the Springbok team versus the opposition and the plan we have. Somewhere on this tour I had to give Warrick Gelant an opportunity, and he did that on attack. The try he scored with his blistering pace, with the counter attack opportunity, that is what he brings to the team. And if not now, when? That was an outside-the-window test. A player like Dan du Preez, when would you be able to give a player like Dan du Preez an opportunity?

“It is great that these players have come through like Wilco Louw, Lukhanyo Am. Unfortunately I would have liked to see more of Lukhanyo Am but the little bit I’ve seen, Louis Schreuder has also shown glimpses. There are positions in this Springbok team that might not be world class now, but players will develop into that world class mode. You can see that last year, when Malcolm Marx got the opportunity, and we brought Steven Kitshoff back. Those are two of the 11 last year regularly, world class players immediately.

“Bongi Mbonambi was excellent this tour and showed our second hooker is with Malcolm, there is good rivalry there,” he said.

Coetzee added that his plan will still ensure the target of 50 percent is reached before the 2019 Rugby World Cup.

“Obviously with all the selections in the world, I’ve got in my contract, I’ve got to make sure that we’ve agreed on a transformation plan that has been agreed and to abide at what has been signed and accepted by the government. With all these changes, yes, you will make a mistake or two, but there are reasons why it is made. It is not made because I don’t know what is going on. I understand what is going on and I understand the bigger picture, if you look at two years down the line and you have to go to the World Cup and have 50 percent representation.

“Where do you think I can go buy that, I can’t go buy that, I need to give the players opportunity to feel comfortable at international level and to compete and that is where we are. We can’t make as if this doesn’t exist. There have been agreements and this is what I am adhering to and that is stipulated in my contract.”

Coetzee will face a review after the past tour, and on his performance record over the two years in charge in the next week at the SA Rugby headquarters.

I am a little surprised Rassie decided to get involved in these circumsta nces

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,257 posts
05 Dec 2017, 23:10
#2
05 Dec 2017, 23:10#2
His win rate has improved this year, but racial representation has become less than last year- and now far below the required 50% government enforced target. So he is not meeting both agreements of his contract. (50% representation, or winning rate). He accepted these terms of the contract when he applied to the job- so he should not really be complaining. It has been known that the ANC has enforced 50% representation, and a certain percentage has to be black African- and not just players of colour. The question is after 2019- will the representation increase more than 50%. Coetzee's selections have been poor and his game plans are worse. Out of position white players have been chosen such as Jessica Kriel at centre, Hougaard on the wing, Dryer anywhere. He is not an international standard coach. It is surprising that Rassie has accepted the job because he is probably going to have the same terms. Unless Rassie has a clause in his contract that allows him to blame the team coach each time, and then just replace with another coach.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
06 Dec 2017, 03:49
#3
06 Dec 2017, 03:49#3
....Bean Brain playing the victim card again i see.....what a dopey yarpy- SNAP OUT OF IT MATE ...As one of SA greatest rugby players of all time Naas Botha has said recently, you can't keep blaming quotas -..especially when you look at how the SA 7s team has adapted...they have moved on and are now world champions , the best 7s team on the planet so spare us the quota BS argument. SA need to emulate that passion , the energy and enthusiasm shown by the SA 7s team - alot of it is to do with having a great attitude and self belief,... not to mention fitness -Blizbok players are super uber fit - this might mean Springbok players cutting out KFC and excesses the like but no pain no gain.... But FITNESS wins games - superior fitness one of the secrets to NZ's success enabling the ABs to go into overdrive and win in the last 20 minutes time and time again so not really a secret as such, it's just common sense really.. Adopt the catch cry Die For South Africa and you should be right.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Dec 2017, 04:27
#4
06 Dec 2017, 04:27#4
Brycie, some truth in that...and you get an A+ for your fitness argument. What I hate most about the quota is the excuse it gives for being mediocre.
CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
06 Dec 2017, 10:39
#5
06 Dec 2017, 10:39#5
Beeno no need for the question mark in the heading, that is a statement of fact you have made. You might have to start praying more because it will be the biggest miracle since......well OK it will be the first miracle that has ever happened but what a miracle it would be :) Hell I might even think you were right (bwahahahaha) that there is a god for Oh I dont know half a second :)
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Dec 2017, 11:09
#6
06 Dec 2017, 11:09#6
Even these most intelectually challenged here (think my poor friend Brycy and that nutter crusaders fan) know quotas are not the only problem. I and many others have listed the problems many times. All this appears to ahve escaped these to kiwi loons! Bwahahahahahahhahahaha As for miracles man if you think the whole of creation is not a miracle you are clueless moronic and totally idiotic. The best explanation the VERY foolish atheists have it that the Universe created itself from nothing. Side spliting BS. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I have to say when ignorance is in question nothing beats a kiwi! Hahahhahahahahaha
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
06 Dec 2017, 14:44
#7
06 Dec 2017, 14:44#7
Brycy, there is a big difference in what is required from a sevens player and that required of many positions in the fifteens game. The fact is that Blacks in SA are too small. This why you see them almost strictly on the wing, at hooker or at prop. Siya and Mahoje are the black equivalents of Etsebeth. So Naas' point isn't without merit but it also doesn't take some very basic requirements into account. The complaint is that a) the government is involving itself in selecting teams while almost entirely ignoring its responsibility to build the game at grass roots level. And b) It is trying to get blood from a stone in that there simply isn't enough interest nor size in the black community to get truly world class players in many of the positions. Ultimately they have seen how successful the Springboks have been in the past and now demand a piece of that action regardless of whether it's possible or not. Look no further than Telkom, Eskom, SANRail, SASSA etc etc to see exactly what happens when the ANC gets it's hands on an organization. Not one of the above or ANY of the many that I haven't mentioned are on an upward curve. They are all being looted. The same thing is happening to rugby. Though the loot in this instance is public opinion. The ANC doesn't give a crap about the Boks. The only care that there is a sport, predominantly enjoyed by whites, which is doing well. And it makes them look bad that no black players are coming through, with the result being that they take the shortcut and demand that black players be selected. They know that the majority of the black population don't care about how the player got there, just as long as he is there. I'll spell it out for you. The government is applying racial policies in sport so as to win votes, while looting every institution in the country. The exact reason why politics should never come close to sport. Literally the exact reason! So, WE HAVE EVERY BLOODY RIGHT TO COMPLAIN AND TO BE CYNICAL! Rather stick to whatever it is that you know because it's obvious that you know nothing about the true state of South Africa.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,257 posts
06 Dec 2017, 14:58
#8
06 Dec 2017, 14:58#8
Like Plum pertains to, our biggest players are usually Afrikaans white players. In fact, most of our playing pool is of the Afrikaans ethnicity. Something to consider is that our player pool is not just white, coloured and black- but also a cultural makeup of these different language groups. White and coloured races include both Afrikaans and English speaking groups. Black Africans have at least 12 language/cultural ethnicities. Perhaps there is also now first language English Black Africans as richer more cosmopolitan generation grows. African politicians do not consider coloured people as black or white- but of mixed race. (and therefore not representative). I am a first language white English speaker- and played rugby in school against white Afrikaans schools, other English white schools, then with and against mixed race towards the end of my school years. I can assure you that the biggest rugby players I have seen in South Africa are Afrikaans white people, albeit that was over 20 years ago. Our most skilful players are often coloured. (Habana, JP, Paulse,). Many of our SuperRugby teams are filled with backline players of colour because of this. Afrikaans white's produce some big strong rugby players- except many rarely pass the ball. Our coaches seem to encourage this. If you look at the minority English speaking white people, we have produced ballplayers like Bob Skinstad, Percy Montgomery, James Small who break the mould of the crash and bash rugby player in South Africa. More black people need to play the game. The development resources need to be applied at school level to give the Springbok coaches a larger pool black players to choose from. Unfortunately, African politics is unlike the rest of the world - and just not 21st-century standard. Any money that could go into junior development is stolen. Cheeky Watson may go to jail for this very practice- where it seems almost certain that he has stolen the funds of EP rugby. The MD of SARU is in a similar court case where KPMG have accused him of stealing rugby funds.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
06 Dec 2017, 18:52
#9
06 Dec 2017, 18:52#9
..Well Plump,how dopey can you get... obviously Naas Botha should stick to whatever he knows best as well because all i did was quote him... The great Naas Botha should know what's happening in SA surely... . But the difference between him and you apart from you being a complete nobody, is that he does'nt whine and he chooses to remain positive... unlike some of the negative b!tches that are stuck in perpetual victimhood. Not everybody buys into the poisonous victim mentality , so maybe those wallowing in it should just grow a pair. If SA can go within a hairs breath of winning a Super Rugby title like they did last year then things can't be that bad in the republic. And size is'nt everything when it comes to players either as players like Damian McKenzie ,Cruden and NMS for example have shown so i don't buy into that players are too small BS either. If SA is prepared to put in the work then i'm sure the rewards will come. But there are no free lunches.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Dec 2017, 20:17
#10
06 Dec 2017, 20:17#10
There are no free lunches opines ou brycy. How the heck does this mutt survive!!! Hahahahahahahahaha Unfortunately my good friend Brycy is very naive. He has no realization that should Naas say anything negative about quotas etc he would be fired. Brycy stick to something you know something about - whatever that might be. Bwahahhahaahhaha these kiwis are a real hoot! Listen to uncle Plum he knows whats potting.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
06 Dec 2017, 20:42
#11
06 Dec 2017, 20:42#11
...Bean Brain acouple of quotes for yr dopey self' “He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else.” —Benjamin Franklin The trouble with excuses is that they become inevitably difficult to believe after they’ve been used a couple of times.” ?Scott Spencer
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
06 Dec 2017, 21:05
#12
06 Dec 2017, 21:05#12
The biggest difference between Naas and myself is that I don't work for Supersport. DSTV are trying their level best to break into the black market and are on the transformation bandwagon because it suites their bottom line. Do you really think that Naas is gonna do anything but toe the company line? In case you didn't know, Naas desperately needs the wage he gets from his TV exec bosses.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
06 Dec 2017, 21:12
#13
06 Dec 2017, 21:12#13
Lol victim mentality. Clearly being world's the only minority actively and officially discriminated by its majority government doesn't warrant any complaint. Genius alert!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Dec 2017, 21:25
#14
06 Dec 2017, 21:25#14
When you solve an optimization problem with a constraint, you always get a lower optimum. Quotas are a selection constraint. NZ by contrast raids the Polynesian world....they have the opposite of a constraint. Which is of course why 75% of their population makes up 40% of their team.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
06 Dec 2017, 22:18
#15
06 Dec 2017, 22:18#15
Stop validating your victim mentality. Shake off your self-defeating drama and embrace your innate ability to recover and achieve.” ? Steve Maraboli
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
06 Dec 2017, 23:22
#16
06 Dec 2017, 23:22#16
"Ja doos." ? Plum
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Dec 2017, 00:22
#17
07 Dec 2017, 00:22#17
So anybody who supports the best player for the position, as opposed to selecting 7 to 8 players or more from a designated group.....has a victim mentality. The frigging victims are the fools who accept this kind of rubbish and come up with non arguments to validate it, like fitness. Fitness is an issue, coaching is an issue......that doesn’t take away from the fact that the Springboks are the one team in international sport chosen under announced racial rules. And thus a team fighting with one hand tied behind it’s back. Guys like Mallett, Rassie and Craig Lewis are disgustingly dishonest .
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
07 Dec 2017, 01:25
#18
07 Dec 2017, 01:25#18
...From what i've read on this forum nobody agrees on who the best players for any position are anyway... so it's very subjective to say one player has been selected ahead of another. After the November tests you can't just point the finger at black players and say they are responsible for a loss when white players are equally responsible for poor performances ... so a lot of the excuses just don''t wash, especially the quota one...best to stop using that excuse and be more honest by saying collectively we we're sh!t...and take it on the chin like a man...
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Dec 2017, 02:53
#19
07 Dec 2017, 02:53#19
I agree collectively you are sh!t...... LMAOFY!
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
07 Dec 2017, 04:00
#20
07 Dec 2017, 04:00#20
...looks like i may have shattered someone's illusions of cultural superiority...my apologies
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
07 Dec 2017, 07:35
#21
07 Dec 2017, 07:35#21
Please do not be too hard on my good friend brycy. He is after all only your typical confused kbb!! Hahahahhahaha you have to love this kbbs who are so obstinately wrong!
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
07 Dec 2017, 12:27
#22
07 Dec 2017, 12:27#22
The quota excuse doesn't wash? OK let's assume NZ make the final of cricket or rugby world cup. On the night before the game the government order the coach to select an injured and out of form player over an in form fit player...in a key position. The game is close, but at the end the injured player, selected on the basis of his skin color performed poorly and it's evident that his poor performance was down to his injury and was major contributor to the end result. IE He should not have played that day. Had the coach and team had their way, they'd have fielded the strongest team possible and a fair contest would have been the result. I'm sure in such an instance, NZers up and down the country will be "taking it in the chin." You know you wouldn't. Nobody would. And nobody should. I'd have thought that much would be obvious. Now imagine something similar happening on a weekly basis across all your sports teams. Would still so happily take it in the chin? You know you wouldn't. You'd be shitting yourself and probably give up watching sport. Brycy, it's easy to sit there and dish out advice when you've never experienced what we in SA experience constantly. But sure, instead of using clichéd generalizations. Give us your take on exactly how you'd handle it. Walk a mile in a man shoes mate.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,257 posts
07 Dec 2017, 14:10
#23
07 Dec 2017, 14:10#23
The big question is will quotas increase after 2019? Initially, quotas were about having representation for non-white players and developing the game for everyone. However, over time quota has changed to specifically include black Africans. (not just players of colour). 
A certain amount of players must be black- and also the representation must include different positions on the field. After 2019, the team may need to include even more black Africans. I don't think the politicians want to count players of colour as part of the representation. 
Transformation is about politicians promoting black people ahead of everyone else, and then pocketing the proceeds into their own bank accou nts.
BO
BokBFClub Pro421 posts
07 Dec 2017, 14:16
#24
07 Dec 2017, 14:16#24
'The great Naas Botha' that is a laugh.... Only as a N Transvaal supporter. 28 caps with 9 losses He is the de facto ANC mouthpiece, singing his heart out for his pay cheque.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Dec 2017, 17:51
#25
07 Dec 2017, 17:51#25
Apparently if you are bankrupt, your view on quotas becomes very positive.
ER
EricTheRedRookie46 posts
07 Dec 2017, 23:38
#26
07 Dec 2017, 23:38#26

I never did understand this whole thing. Why does there have to be 50% of anyone? Sports doesn't work like that. How can anyone come up with 50% as a legitimate number. I think I'd you leave merit selections policies in place a natural hierarchy will emerge that is fair and representative of the best. In America black people dominate sport at all levels despite being a minority. I'm pretty sure they'd think you were crazy and racist if you told them to make sure that 50% of every team included white Europeans. I mean its obviously racist and I don't get why nobody is saying anything! Of course money plays a big part in all of this but it doesn't seem to matter when its the other way around. Am I missing something here? Isn't the football team of South Africa all black? Shouldn't it be at least 12-15% white? What of mixed race people? Are they no longer human beings? Man this is really hard to take in. Sad times. I really don't want to see the Roboks banned but it probably would be for the best. I mean the team would hardly be missed in its current state. Don't take that the wrong way gentlemen. 

ER
EricTheRedRookie46 posts
07 Dec 2017, 23:38
#27
07 Dec 2017, 23:38#27


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
08 Dec 2017, 11:18
#28
08 Dec 2017, 11:18#28

Well said Eric the reed maybe you will be a much needed improvement on the dumb kiwi bird brain (KKBS) by occassiona lly getting things right. Hahhahahahahaha

— END OF THREAD —

More from Rugby

More news