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Delande to be 1st choice Bok inside center

Started by sharkbok65 REPLIES1,028 VIEWS· 15 Feb 2015, 08:15
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CleanCut
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CleanCutPro9,905 posts
17 Feb 2015, 07:41
#41
17 Feb 2015, 07:41#41
 
Yes Dave ... I'm a big fan of Pat Howard. He has talent coming out of every orifice. 

Thing is though, he's not getting game time so that excludes him from selection.

What I've seen of De Allende at 13 didn't impress me. He looked out of sorts.

Perhaps if he had an extended run there and was allowed to settle ... maybe then we'd see what you see.

What are the chances of him playing at 13 this season? Highly unlikely. Jean's injury has decided De Allende's fate for the year ... and it's not a bad thing either, Dave.

He's been shunted around. Now he can stake his claim. 

I know you like De Allende ... maybe by seasons end you'll be calling for his Bok inclusion at 12.



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clevermike
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Feb 2015, 08:32
#42
17 Feb 2015, 08:32#42
 Mozart
Statistically and otherwise things were as bad as I wrote above and for both the Springboks in 2012 and for the Sharks subsequently he was a drawback insofar as backline play is concerned.
His absolute mindless running straight at the first defender was not at all conducive to backline play and his frequent ball possession losses - averaging 2 per game played - was worse.   
He has a massive amount to prove this year.   He may be better because he apparently lost about 10 kilo's in weight - which may reduce the impact on his whacky knee - but even at 108kgs he will be still be 5 kgs heavier than he should be.   We will see what he produces - if he kept on the way he was last year - he will not last at center for the season and the Sharks may end up with an Esterhuizen-Jordaan center combination sooner than one thinks.   His best hope may ultimately be to stay in Japan, play for the Kings or go farming.  

I am not at all optimistic about his rugby future at all.   
             
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Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
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Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Feb 2015, 08:39
#43
17 Feb 2015, 08:39#43
On form Allende is a certainty for the 12 jersey unless Frans regains form.
Howard apparently is on loan to Munster for three months. Not sure when exactly he will be back.
He is a must in this Stormers backline as at 100 kg he adds some grunt. Van Wyk as well at 94 kg on the wing is also needed back.
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CleanCut
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CleanCutPro9,905 posts
17 Feb 2015, 08:55
#44
17 Feb 2015, 08:55#44
 
Tell me ... why are you guys still speaking of Fats Fransie?

He's a useless chump. Always has been.

Nothing's changed except that he's now a useless chump with a buggered knee.




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Saffolk
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Feb 2015, 11:12
#45
17 Feb 2015, 11:12#45

All I know is that Meyer wants to see de Allende at 13, but with Jean out and de Jongh a 13, it is not going to happen.

 

de Allende would be a little out of sorts at 13, although I thought he looked fine there. To be honest he got very little opportunities at 13 in the tests.

 

Pat Howard was highly appreciated at Munster and I hear he wants to stay there. Same with Swiel at Quins.

 

It just shows how pathetic our coaches are.......last season we saw useless Coeztee playing v/d Spuy at centre ahead of Howard and we saw average Zielinga playing ahead of Swiel at the Sharks.

 

We will lose both these players shortly......watch this space.  

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clevermike
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2015, 06:42
#46
18 Feb 2015, 06:42#46
 Even though Dave claims that Serfontein is the ideal 12 for the Springboks we have a problem at 12.   The main problem is that - whereas Dave claim that De Allende is a finisher - not a creative player - the problem is that who is in fact a creative player in that position:-
*   De Villiers never was a creative player at 12.   He started off his career with WP as a 12 - but his initial  Springbok selection was in the main on the wing where he had sufficient speed to do very well.   He always was a physical player who could break tackles and make line-breaks - never a creative 12.   In 2012 he played tests  outside Francois Steyn at 13 and then switched to 12 when Steyn was injured.   Subsequently on Stormers level he played at 13 when De Jongh was injured and preferred to play outside of De Allende at 12. One wonders why?
*    Francois Steyn started off his career at 15 for the Sharks and was moved to 12 by them at times when their regular 12 was not available.   in 2007 - after De Villiers was injured - he was moved to 12 by Jake White and he played in that position in the WC final.   He continued playing in the main at 12 since then even though there were deficiencies in his game.   His defense was rather tacky and questionable while he had no vision and was the least creative center SA has seen for years.   On his return from France in April 2012 he was found to be grossly overweight and slow and his career were interrupted in 2012 and 2013 by major injuries.    Before his injury in 2013 he was dropped from the Sharks starting line-up, because in Plumtree's own words - he was no center.    When Jordaan was injured in 2013 - through lack of alternatives - Steyn was brought into the Sharks team at 13 for two games, but suffered a serious injury in the second game and never played again in Super 15 in 2013.   In 2014 Steyn played either at 12 or 10 for the  Sharks and in the games he played he did make long distance penalties - his only asset - but he killed backline play because he has no vision and ball sense.   His gross overweight problems caused lack of speed and a knee problem put pay to any chances of him ever playing creative rugby.   In the whole of Super 15 last year he made two line breaks - one at center and one at flyhalf - he managed to beat only 8 defenders in all games played and never scored a try.   Steyn probably was from an attacking perspective the worst SA inside center in 2014.   His defense was poor as well with a missed tackle ratio of over 26%.   But we are talking about creative centers - he is the least creative of any centers ever playing for SA in the 12 jersey.  
*    There is much debate about Serfontein at 12 - where he routinely played for the Bulls in 2013 and 2014.   Mozart states he is slow and physically not up to standard - which are indeed dubious statements.   But the question is - is he a creative center?   There is no evidence at all that he is.   From his Under 20 WC appearances to date there is no evidence that he created or made space for players outside of him.   He never is credited with a creation of try scoring opportunities and his passing game can at best be described as routine.   Meyer moved him to 13 in tests in 2014 and his defense in that position was good - but that is about it.   A good center he  is - but not a top attacking player he is not and definitely not a creative player. 
*    De Allende played in the main at 12 in the games where for the Stormers he did play at 12.   Since they also used him on the wing - there is no speed problems in his case.  But is he a creative player?   Dave claims he is not and he only is a finisher.  However, facts indicate otherwise.   Of all the four players mentioned De Allende is the only one that is regularly credited with try-scoring opportunities creation.   Bearing physically very strong, he is good in drawing in defenders and timing of his his passes thus creating try scoring opportunities.   De Allende is probably the best of all four players mention in creating opportunities for other players to perform better and score tries.    Of the four players mentioned De Allende is the only one that can be described as a creative player.                       
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CleanCut
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CleanCutPro9,905 posts
18 Feb 2015, 07:30
#47
18 Feb 2015, 07:30#47
 
Agreed ... who, if left alone, will go on to greatness.

As I said, we have our 12 ... now to fish out our 13.

I hope this season uncovers some hidden talent.

Personally I feel the best of the lot currently available at 13 is Mapoe.
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
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Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Feb 2015, 08:28
#48
18 Feb 2015, 08:28#48
 Mapoe is fine except for pace. He is a carthorse.
Jan is a VERY creative player but has of course been turned into a crash baller by the bulle. 
Solutions might include:Jan at 12 Allende at 13
Allende at 12 Van Wyk at 13 - he is primarily a center I understand. Allende 12 JP 13
Allende 12 Jordaan 13
Allende at 12 Jan at 13.
Oosthuizen the big Sharks center must also be watched. The Supe comp will sift the players and who knwshow Frans Steyn will go. 
A centre to watch is the smooth Sadie. Stokkies Hanekom was looking good last season as was Watermeyer - where is he now?The test season is a way off so there is time for players to make their mark.


SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Feb 2015, 12:00
#49
18 Feb 2015, 12:00#49

Jordaan, like de Jongh are not options at 13 - they are physically not up to it.

 

For me there is only one man for 12 and that is Jan......so the options are:

 

12. Jan 13. JJ

 

12. Jan 13. de Allende

 

12. Jan 13. Andre Esterhuizen

 

12. Jan 13. v/Wyk

 

12. Jan 13. Stokkies

 

12. Jan 13. Pat Howard

 

12. Jan 13. Tyler Fisher

 

12. Jan 13. Sithole

 

12. Jan 13. Sadie

 

12. Jan 13. Mapoe

 

12. Jan 13. Odendaal

 

12. Jan 13. Dries Swanepoel

 

12. Jan 13. Rohan Janse v/Rensburg

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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2015, 12:45
#50
18 Feb 2015, 12:45#50
 Dave
The fact that you only rate Serfontein at 12 - nobody else is a problem on its own.   I would not call him a type of center that creates anything for anybody - he is a crashballer with minimal off-loading skills and a very average passing game.
But leave it be.   You are the only member who constantly rate JJ as his first choice 13, but he has serious deficiencies and very rarely show anything of substance at 13.   I would say he is being wrongly used by the Bulls - the guy made his name initially playing on the wing - and to my mind he remains a wing - not a center.   If he played n the wing he would by now  have cemented  his spot in the Springbok team on the wing - but at center he has not showed enough to be a certain selection.          
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Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Feb 2015, 12:57
#51
18 Feb 2015, 12:57#51

No I don't only rate Jan as the 12, but for me is a dead cert at 12......so I don't need to look elsewhere.

 

But if I did, I'd be looking at Frans, Esterhuizen, de Allende, Odendaal, Frans Venter, Vorster, Mnisi and Heimar Williams.

 

As for saying Jan is not a creator, that is the biggest load of shit I have read in ages. At the Bulls he plays crash ball under instruction and for the Boks he plays out of position.

 

One only needed to watch him in that JWC to see what a wonderfully gifted and creative player he is. One does not win the JWC player of the year being a crash baller - wake up man.

 

How many more times must I tell you that you are speaking complete shit re JJ.....funny thing is, the people that know their rugby on this site like Sas and Biltongbek (now departed) rated JJ as the best 13, I wonder why that is? They see the skill in the guy. He was awesome for the Boks and has been killed by the Bulls, much like Jan has.

 

You are not capable of taking in these very facts as you don't know the game well enough.   

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clevermike
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2015, 13:27
#52
18 Feb 2015, 13:27#52
 Dave
In a way you are right about the Bulls center play - you need not look further than Sadie to realise how badly they abuse centers - matter of fact the sooner centers gets away from them - and start playing real center rugby at other franchises, the better it is for the players themselves.
But Serfontein and JJ have also played for the Springboks - where there was not much difference in their playing styles and between what they produce for the Springboks and what they produced for the Bulls.
I like Serfontein - he is a hard trier and a good player - but he is not necessarily the best inside center in SA.   Your list of potential inside centers has Francois Steyn as second choice.   I nearly fell of my chair laughing when I read that - and you claim you are a rugby fundi!!!    Over the last two years Steyn was the most useless inside center in SA.   Slow, totally ineffective in attacking play and a dubious defender - what a joke.   
  
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Saffolk
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Feb 2015, 13:41
#53
18 Feb 2015, 13:41#53

Why not wake up and do yourself a favour and go look at JJ's Youtube footage of him playing for the Boks and come back and tell me he was not good.

 

After that go watch the whole game he played against the AB's and then come back and inform me of a better display by a Bok 13 than that since hell knows when.

 

You don't have a clue - summed up by your take on Frans......you don't know the game 

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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2015, 13:48
#54
18 Feb 2015, 13:48#54
 Dave
Why?   Francois Steyn produced nothing in two years - in 2013 he was so bad his coach said he is no center - in 2014 he was no better (bar kicking long distance penalties) - and I am honest enough to say so. .
 
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Saffolk
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Feb 2015, 15:09
#55
18 Feb 2015, 15:09#55

Bullshit, you have some childish and pathetic prejudice against Frans, we pointed out your shortfalls in this respect all of last year as we will do this year when he returns.

 

Frans is a class act and you have absolutely no idea when it comes to this player

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Feb 2015, 15:24
#56
18 Feb 2015, 15:24#56

We have a skill deficiency at centre without Jean....no matter which combination we produce. But the good news is the RWC doesn't reward attacking centre play....it's too tight. Hell the last bit of decisive centre play I recall at a RWC was Mortlock intercepting the Abs for a try in 2003.

 

 

What the RWC does punish is feebleness. In that regard Step and especially JJ would be a disaster. Pick de Allende and hone him defensively. The outside centre might be JP. Or alternatively pick Pollard/Frans and de Allende and dominate the mid field physically.

 

Step is simply not aggressive, fast or strong enough to be a factor.

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Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Feb 2015, 15:32
#57
18 Feb 2015, 15:32#57

Ah yeah what skill does Jean give us these days exactly?

 

Jan is the best young 12 in the game, sadly being wasted at 13 in the Bok side thanks to playing a has been at 12 in Jean......its that simple.

 

We have more talent at centre than we have ever had but our useless coach would rather play Jean and Fourie at centre and bring back a guy like Olivier......same applies all round....we have useless selections like Bakkies and Matfield at lock, Steenkamp, CJ and Heinke v/d Merwe at prop......Juan Smith and Schalk at flank, du Preez and Pienaar at 9, Morne at 15, Kirchner at 15......you see the pattern of ignorance here.

 

Meyer is an insult of a test coach  

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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2015, 16:03
#58
18 Feb 2015, 16:03#58
 DaVe
No childish prejudice.   I was a Steyn admirer like you - but since his return from France he was an absolute flop  in the tests in 2012 and a more serious fliop subsequently.   If a center manage 1 line break in all games he played at center and in to tal in the year beat 8 defenders -  with a serious defense deficiency also statistically proven - is he a class act?   
Like you always said about De Villiers - he used to be a great player - so Steyn used to be, but he is a serious flop at present.    A younger flop - but still a flop.      
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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2015, 16:04
#59
18 Feb 2015, 16:04#59
 Mozart
We want a backline - noit a dead backline.  Steyn kills backline play - as was proven ever since his return from France.  
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Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Feb 2015, 16:06
#60
18 Feb 2015, 16:06#60
Disagree, Frans was good last year as he will be this year  
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Shezza
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ShezzaPro2,471 posts
18 Feb 2015, 16:09
#61
18 Feb 2015, 16:09#61
 It's only the first match of Super Rugby. But I am starting to develop the opinion that the Bulls have ruined Serfontein, he is given no freedom and is only being used as a battering ram, you only have to looked at De Allende to see how important freedom is to a center. All those saying Jan hasn't shown anything at Super rugby only have to go back to 2013, he had an awesome year but sadly he has regressed since then.
In an ideal world I would have Pat Howard and De Allende at 12 and 13 for the Stormers, depending how well Howard plays I'd have this partnership for the Boks also. But De Jong stands in the way of Howard and it doesn't look like he's going anywhere, so my forecast for the future is that Howard will be lost to us and we'll rue the consequences when half the Irish team are SA'n born and they beat us. Coaching back home is dire, certain coaches are like a disease as well as quotas that are diluting the quality of our player base.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Feb 2015, 16:12
#62
18 Feb 2015, 16:12#62

The common view was Jean was poor last year....and certainly he made no great breaks. But what breaks did Step make? Jean still made more metres after the first contact than any other Bok backline player......and when overlaps were developing was still the guy who cut off the outside ball. Many times he did this.

 

 

I don't think Jean comes back from that injury.....but he will be missed, massively missed. We read about all these names that can fill the gap, but none test proven factors.

 

 

Our best shot is to go back to the Mulder model and play very physical gain line rugby and pick a few fast wings that can cash in turn over ball.

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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Feb 2015, 16:15
#63
18 Feb 2015, 16:15#63
 Dave
I put it bluntly - Frans was absolute crap last year and we will have to see whether his loss of fat makes him any better this year.   The worst attacking center in Super 15 and the second worse defender last year.   Will he be any better this year?
I doubt is very much - but for the sake of the Sharks I hope he is.   Three years of flops cannot realistically  be turned around the fourth year.
If he was as classy as you said - why was Steyn the only frontline center in SA franchises who NEVER scored a try?   Mind you - since his return from France in all games played he sco red ONE charge down try against the Pumas.   A "class act" should be better than that!!!    

SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
18 Feb 2015, 16:19
#64
18 Feb 2015, 16:19#64
What utter crap Moz, Jan out performed Jean in every test last year , despite playing out of position at 13 
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Shezza
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ShezzaPro2,471 posts
18 Feb 2015, 16:43
#65
18 Feb 2015, 16:43#65
 Moz you need to realise the extent playing out of position has on ones performance, it's not like in the 90's and early 2000's where you had a right and left center that could be virtually the same sort of player. 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Feb 2015, 17:10
#66
18 Feb 2015, 17:10#66

You make a fair point Shezza, but inherently I don't think Step has enough horsepower. Hell he played 12 all S15 for the Bools last year and hardly was a factor. Great players, like Jean who played 11, 13 and 12 make a mark wherever the y play.

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