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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  Ex-UK defence minister ‘disgusted’ by Trump’s attitude to Putin and Russia

Ex-UK defence minister ‘disgusted’ by Trump’s attitude to Putin and Russia

Started by Denny15 REPLIES447 VIEWS· 17 Apr 2025, 13:15
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DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
17 Apr 2025, 13:15
#1
17 Apr 2025, 13:15#1

Pronouncing himself “disgusted” by Donald Trump’s favorable attitude to Russia and Vladimir Putin, the former UK defence minister Grant Shapps said the US president calling a Russian missile strike that killed dozens in Ukraine last weekend a “mistake” was an example of “weasel language we used to hear … from the IRA” terrorist group.


“All anybody needs Putin to do is get the hell out of a democratic neighboring country,” Shapps told the One Decision podcast, regarding attempts to end the war in Ukraine that has raged since Russia invaded in February 2022.

“And I just have to [put] this on record: it disgusts me, I feel disgusted [by] the idea that the leader of the free world cannot tell the difference between the dictator who locks up and murders his opponents and invades innocent democratic countries and the country itself that has been invaded.

“This lack of moral clarity is completely demoralizing for the rest of the democratic world.”

Related: How Trump is driving US towards Russia – a timeline of the president’s moves

Shapps, 56, filled numerous roles in Conservative cabinets before becoming minister of defence in August 2023, becoming a key player in maintaining international support for Ukraine. He lost his seat in parliament last July, as Labour won power in a landslide. This month, Shapps was given a knighthood.


One Decision is a foreign policy focused podcast, with co-hosts including Sir Richard Dearlove, a former head of the British MI6 intelligence service, and Leon Panetta, a former US defense secretary and CIA director.

On the campaign trail last year, Trump repeatedly said he would secure peace in Ukraine in one day. Instead, he has angered allies by rebuking the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, in the Oval Office; sought to extract concessions from Kyiv over access to rare minerals; and deployed a negotiator, Steve Witkoff, whose effusive praise for Putin has attracted widespread scorn. On Monday, Trump repeated his incorrect claim that Zelenskyy started the war.

Though talks have been held in Saudi Arabia, the war has continued. This month has seen devastating Russian missile strikes on Ukrainian cities. First, nine children were among 19 people killed in Kryvyi Rih, Zelenskyy’s home town. In Sumy last Sunday, missiles killed at least 35 and injured more than 100.


Speaking to reporters on Air Force One, Trump said of the Sumy strike: “I think it was terrible. And I was told they made a mistake. But I think it’s a horrible thing.”

Shapps said: “It’s a sort of weasel language. We used to hear it from the IRA [the Irish Republican terrorist group, after attacks killed civilians]. I mean, it’s just appalling to hear this sort of thing. It’s appalling not to be able to condemn it properly.”

Alluding to years of reporting on why Trump has such a favorable view of Putin, with theories ranging from admiration for autocrats to Russia holding compromising material, Shapps said: “I think I do know what hold Putin may have [over Trump] but I mean, it is not right.”

Asked by co-host Kate McCann what he meant by “hold”, Shapps first noted that Trump’s first impeachment, in 2020, was for withholding military aid to Ukraine in an attempt to get Zelenskyy to dig up dirt on Joe Biden.


Shapps also said that by appeasing Putin, Trump was offering encouragement to other autocrats with territorial ambitions.

“Even if you are the Trump White House, surely you must understand that if you let one dictator get away with it, what do you think will happen when another dictator walks into a neighboring state or one maybe just over the water and takes it over? Do you think that people will believe the west when we say you can’t do that?”


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
17 Apr 2025, 14:47
#2
17 Apr 2025, 14:47#2

Go get help.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Apr 2025, 15:28
#3
17 Apr 2025, 15:28#3

Hysteria morally outraged, but completely unwilling to correct his own lies on this Board.. a pathetic character,

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
17 Apr 2025, 15:38
#4
17 Apr 2025, 15:38#4

As usual;, any criticism of Bozo is met by angry foot-stamping from the outraged Trumpanzees.


You can almost picture the likes of Squeaky Toy and Moffie back in the late 1930s getting all indignant and emotional if anyone said something negative about Hitler.


Here's a wake-up call, Trumpanzees . . . the people who have the intelligence to see through Bozo's bullshit and his bluster are not the ones who need help.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Apr 2025, 17:17
#5
17 Apr 2025, 17:17#5

Any criticism? What planet are you on Drinksbreak? Planet Tassies no doubt. And he plays the Hitler card…..hahaha…..when you have something original to say post again.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Apr 2025, 19:20
#6
17 Apr 2025, 19:20#6

One needs to look at a much wider issue tha the Ukraine War and especially since the Middle and ar East is in tirmoil as a result of the Biden BS and corrupt Administration, which weakened the US Defense Force badky - while other countries lost their respect for he USA and started carrying out roigue attacks in the ME and Beijing is reaally near to strangle Taiwan and Spuh Korea,


It is far better to have a peacedul settlement in Ukrine and get an agreement with Russia than to drive Rusia into te arms of China, The fact is also that Zelenskyy is a corupt drawf in a international contenion and what the media and the brainwashed idiots on this site wants will never solve anything and further enhance the activities of the nemi of the USA and their lame-duck allies. .


The problem for the Nato countries is that their armies won't beaqt th army of Egypt or or that matter Turkey - whose relationship with NATO and the EU is forsty. Turkeys army is mobigger than eh armies of the UK, Germany and F rance combined and if there is a war Turkey is likely not to be on the side of NATO anyway.



BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
17 Apr 2025, 21:59
#7
17 Apr 2025, 21:59#7

What's disgusting is criticism of the article by DbD & Mozart ...........the pair, once upon a time fair-minded individuals, now far down the Maga rabbit-hole & totally skoon verlore.

A shameful sies.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Apr 2025, 22:21
#8
17 Apr 2025, 22:21#8

You simply don’t get being balanced Blob. I have criticized Trump’s tariff implementation , his cabinet picks, his characterization of immigrants. But sorry I’m not willing to call it a failure yet….nor am I willing to endorse the never ending slaughter of young Ukranian men to satisfy Europe’s need to punish Putin.

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
17 Apr 2025, 22:50
#9
17 Apr 2025, 22:50#9

Trump2's POTUS has created a dictatorship.

Yes or no ?

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
17 Apr 2025, 22:55
#10
17 Apr 2025, 22:55#10

dfghjk

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Apr 2025, 00:03
#11
18 Apr 2025, 00:03#11

Absolutely not. the Dems are still a force and the courts and the constitution restrict his freedom to act. The President has always had his clearest authority in foreign affairs and the borders, where he has been most active. Americans won’t tolerate a dictatorship.

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
18 Apr 2025, 01:13
#12
18 Apr 2025, 01:13#12

Harvard Professor Steven Levitsky "Right Now, the U.S. Is Ceasing to Be a Democracy"

Donald Trump is currently transforming the U.S. into an authoritarian state, argues Harvard Professor Steven Levitsky, author of "How Democracies Die." And he is using an unexpected twist in the authoritarian playbook to do so.

Interview Conducted by Claus Hecking in Cambridge, U.S.

24.03.2025, 09.57 Uhr



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DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Levitsky, U.S. President Donald Trump is seeking to single-handedly abolish rights enshrined in the Constitution, is dissolving government institutions by decree and has begun talking about impeaching judges that would dare stand in his way. Is American democracy in danger?

Levitsky: We are currently witnessing the collapse of our democracy. Under Donald Trump, the U.S. is sliding into a form of authoritarianism. This will probably not be irreversible. But the fact is: Right now, the U.S. is ceasing to be a democracy.

About Steven Levitsky

Foto:

Jason Grow / DER SPIEGEL

Steven Levitsky, born in 1968, is a professor of government and Latin American studies at Harvard University. He is also the director of the David Rockefeller Center for Latin American Studies at Harvard. His research focuses on democracy and authoritarianism, parties and institutions. His book "How Democracies Die," co-authored with Daniel Ziblatt, has been translated into more than 30 languages and has received numerous awards, in addition to being on the DER SPIEGEL bestseller list. In 2024, Levitsky and Ziblatt published "The Tyranny of the Minority: Why American Democracy Reached the Breaking Point."

DER SPIEGEL: What form of authoritarianism are you talking about?

Levitsky: I call it competitive authoritarianism: Formal democratic institutions will be maintained, but the democratic substance is eroding. There is still democratic competition, but it is unfair because the incumbents are manipulating the game in their favor using state resources. We probably won't see tanks in the streets, our Constitution will remain in place, the opposition will not be banned, and elections will be held again. But in those elections, there will no longer be a level playing field between Republicans and Democrats.


DER SPIEGEL: Where have you already seen indications of this development in the U.S?

Levitsky: The president and his administration are staffing government bodies like the judiciary, the intelligence services and regulatory agencies, such as the Federal Communications Commission, with loyalists and instrumentalizing them to pressure and wear down political opponents, thereby diminishing their chances of winning an election. At the same time, they are trying to subdue or silence critical voices like the media, academics and other civil society actors. Within just a few weeks, Trump and his people have already massively increased the costs of opposition.


DER SPIEGEL 13/2025

The article you are reading originally appeared in German in issue 13/2025 (March 22nd, 2025) of DER SPIEGEL.

SPIEGEL International

DER SPIEGEL: When comparing the moves Trump has made since his inauguration with those of established autocrats, where do you see the similarities?

Levitsky: What is striking about the first two months of the Trump administration is not that it reminds me of Viktor Orbán in Hungary, the Law and Justice (PiS) party in Poland, Narendra Modi in India or Hugo Chávez in Venezuela. It’s worse. Trump and his allies have been much more openly authoritarian than any of these figures. They are eagerly embracing authoritarianism. See, for example, the apparent enthusiasm with which they are refusing to comply with court orders and attacking justices.


DER SPIEGEL: At least the freedom of opinion appears to still be guaranteed in the U.S.

Levitsky: In a free, functioning democracy, the media, entrepreneurs, academics and politicians should be able to speak out openly against the government without fear of personal repercussions. But now, more and more people, from journalists and university presidents to protesting students, are having to consider whether or not to oppose Trump because they might have to pay a price for doing so. And there is mounting evidence that Republican members of Congress are being put under massive pressure to vote with Trump on crucial issues that go against their convictions. Among other things, Trump supporters are said to be threatening them with violence against them and their families. We've only ever seen this kind of thing in other parts of the world until now.


Political scientist Steven Levitsky in Harvard: "There will no longer be a level playing field between Republicans and Democrats."

Foto: Jason Grow / DER SPIEGEL

DER SPIEGEL: Are Trump and his people following a script?

Levitsky: There's a classic pattern: First, a would-be autocrat must gain control of the institutions responsible for investigations, prosecutions and the like. Trump's first step in office was precisely to replace these "referees" with his followers. He appointed his former lawyer Pam Biondi to head the Justice Department, and Kash Patel to head the FBI ...

"It's bizarre: the president of the United States and his followers are using the strategy employed by the ruler of little Hungary. They are trying to copy the Hungarian model."

DER SPIEGEL: ... who has written children's books portraying Trump as a king ...

Levitsky: ... and Trump also staffed the military and key regulatory agencies with loyalists. Hugo Chávez once did something similar in Venezuela, followed later by Recep Tayyip Erdo?an in Turkey and, above all, Viktor Orbán in Hungary. Orbán was once a center-right democratic politician, but after returning to power in 2010, he weaponized the state and established an authoritarian system. He taught Trump and the Republicans that the state can be a useful tool – by using it as a weapon for one's own political and ideological purposes. It's bizarre: the president of the United States and his followers are using the strategy employed by the ruler of little Hungary. They are trying to copy the Hungarian model.


DER SPIEGEL: Will Trump really be able to dominate the U.S. the way Orbán dominates Hungary?

Levitsky: I don't think so. It's far more difficult to change the Constitution in the U.S. than in Hungary. Doing so requires two-thirds majorities in both houses of Congress, after which three-quarters of the states must ratify the amendment. Furthermore, the opposition in Hungary was much weaker than the Democrats are here. There is a significant chance that Trump will lose control of the House of Representatives in the 2026 congressional elections.

DER SPIEGEL: Isn’t the U.S. democracy resilient enough to withstand Trump? After all, checks and balances – the separation of powers – have existed for over two centuries.


Levitsky: Unfortunately, I have to say: The much-vaunted Constitutional checks are failing. Our Founding Fathers wanted to prevent an all-powerful tyrant. To this end, they created a series of institutions over 200 years ago: the Electoral College for electing the president, the separation of powers with an independent, bicameral legislature, and a largely independent judiciary. Not to mention a federalist system that grants far-reaching powers to the states. But they didn't foresee that one day there would be two strongly polarized parties, one of which is completely loyal to the incumbent president. To my knowledge, no U.S. president has ever had more control over a party than Trump has today over the Republicans – a party which holds a majority in both houses of Congress. This means that Congress, our legislative branch, is ceding its power to Trump.


DER SPIEGEL: And during his first term, Trump was already able to appoint three justices to the Supreme Court, who now often rule in his favor. Are we seeing a coup from the top?

Levitsky: I would call it an attempted coup: abuse of power on a grand scale. I would only call it a coup if Trump openly violated the Constitution and openly refused to comply with Congress or the Supreme Court.

"I've never seen such a concentration of political, economic and media power in a democratic system as Musk currently combines."

DER SPIEGEL: Even before Trump was sworn in for his second term, you warned that the U.S. could slide into authoritarianism.

Levitsky: It's been worse than expected. First, the new administration is acting much faster and more comprehensively than foreseen. Second, we didn't expect Elon Musk. He is a new element in the authoritarian playbook. I've never seen such a concentration of political, economic and media power in a democratic system as Musk currently combines. And he has never been elected to any office. Now, with his Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE), this man is wreaking havoc on our state. He's most likely violating our Constitution and numerous laws, but he's not even being monitored.


Elon Musk demonstrating his vision for the U.S. government at the Conservative Political Action Conference: "He is a new element in the authoritarian playbook."

Foto: Jose Luis Magana / AP / dpa

DER SPIEGEL: The president is granted numerous powers in the U.S., and Trump is taking advantage of this by ruling with countless executive orders. Would such a concentration of power be possible in a parliamentary democracy like Germany?

Levitsky: In principle, it's more difficult for outsiders like Trump to rise to the top of a traditional party and win it over. But even in parliamentary democracies, there can be a dynamic where traditional parties weaken and an outsider gains majorities with his own party. See Berlusconi in Italy. And if an authoritarian politician gains control of a traditional party, like Orbán in Hungary, he can cause great damage even in a parliamentary system. I'm worried about the United Kingdom right now, because Nigel Farage's so-called Reform Party is leading in the polls there. The UK has a much more centralized, majoritarian political system. If Farage were to win a parliamentary majority, he could cause even more damage than Trump.


"The much-vaunted Constitutional checks are failing."

DER SPIEGEL: In contrast to Trump’s first term, there has so far been very little public resistance.

Levitsky: I was always convinced that attempts to abuse power would meet with considerable resistance in the U.S. After all, we have such a rich, diverse democracy, a strong, prosperous private sector and independent, financially strong universities. But in the first weeks of Trump II, we are witnessing an unexpectedly high degree of self-censorship, capitulation or even subordination. Some of the richest and most powerful business leaders are bowing down to Trump. Leading media outlets are being pressured by their owners to accommodate Trump. Leading universities have been silent about the devastating attack on our universities and science. If this continues, Trump will be able to do far more damage than I recently thought possible.


A U.S. flag after on Wall Street in New York following an anti-Trump demonstration

Foto:

Spencer Platt / Getty Images

"Many Americans are naive. They take democracy for granted in our country."

DER SPIEGEL: Why is that?

Levitsky: Many Americans are naive. They take democracy for granted in our country. With the exception of a handful of immigrants, we don't know what it's like to live in an autocracy. This is a huge disadvantage we have relative to, for example, Germany, Poland or South American societies. Furthermore, the election results had a demoralizing effect on Trump’s opponents. They are disillusioned and exhausted. I get paid to talk about democracy; I've been talking about Trump constantly for nine years. When he was re-elected in November, all I wanted to do was go home, eat ice cream, and watch hockey on TV. But people are now recovering from this shock, and we're seeing the first nationwide protests – in front of Tesla dealerships, for example.


DER SPIEGEL: Why have the Democrats remained largely silent in the face of Trump’s deportations and executive orders, many of which have been of questionable legality?

Levitsky: The Democrats are still dominated by a generation of older politicians who were politically socialized in the 20th century within tried-and-true democratic norms. Many of them seem quite disoriented. They are counting on the system to protect them. And following Trump's first term, they expected his second administration to not be that bad.

DER SPIEGEL: They’ve been caught off guard?

Levitsky: I compare it to a 15-round boxing match where a boxer charges in the first round and throws a thousand punches. He may be exhausted by the fourth round, but in the first round, he lands so many punches that his opponent lies stunned in the corner. That's what's happening to the Democrats now. They've been hit by a barrage of unexpected blows.


  1. Related Articles Europe on the Sidelines: Trump Steers America Away from Allies and Towards Autocracies By René Pfister in Washington, D.C.
  2. Trump vs. Europe: America Is Now an Adversary A DER SPIEGEL Editorial by Mathieu von Rohr
  3. Bye Bye U.S.: Europe Scrambles to Find Strategy in Trump's World
  4. Exploiting the Arctic?: "What Trump Wants to Do with Greenland Is a Mystery to Me" Interview Conducted by Claus Hecking

DER SPIEGEL: Many Democrats are still advocating for a wait-and-see approach – until Trump has caused so much damage in the U.S. that voters turn away from him and toward the Democrats.

Levitsky: It's possible that the Democratic Party could win elections in the future if its people simply keep quiet and hide in the corner. Trump is already massively weakening our economy with his trade policy. But the interests of the Democratic Party are not the same as the interests of our society. And Trump is currently ruining our country and our democracy.

DER SPIEGEL: Can Trump still be stopped?

Levitsky: Yes. Autocrats are most destructive when they enjoy high levels of popular support: Politicians like Putin or Chávez sometimes have or have had 70 or 80 percent support. Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, on the other hand, was able to do much less damage because he lacked this backing. And Trump is not a popular president. He didn't reach 50 percent in the election – and now his approval ratings are clearly below that mark and falling. More than half of the country rejects him. And Trump is making many new enemies, whether with the civil service layoffs or his erratic trade policy.

"I think we can still restore our democracy."

DER SPIEGEL: What happens next?

Levitsky: It may sound a bit clichéd, but ultimately it's true: Citizens must defend democracy. This isn't just about taking to the streets. We must begin building a committed opposition together with civil rights organizations, universities, businesses and politicians from the Democratic Party.

Political scientist Steven Levitsky (right) with DER SPIEGEL reporter Claus Hecking: "It may sound a bit clichéd, but ultimately it's true: Citizens must defend democracy."

Foto: Jason Grow / DER SPIEGEL

DER SPIEGEL: Is there anything that gives you hope?

Levitsky: The form of authoritarianism Trump is pursuing isn't irreversible. I think we can still restore our democracy. But we Americans have to take action.

DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Levitsky, thank you very much for this interview.




MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Apr 2025, 02:38
#13
18 Apr 2025, 02:38#13

‘Is there anything that gives you hope’…..hahaha…this man sees the world one way. Here he is 7 years ago warning Democracy is dying. A classic example of why I don’t want my hard earned tax dollars funding indulgent social studies at rich universities.



Harvard Correspondent

January 29, 2018 long read

Political polarization has risen dangerously high over race, religion, and culture, authors say

The weakening and sometimes collapse of liberal democracies around the world has long been a focus of research for Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt, but the Harvard professors of government only recently felt compelled to turn their analysis to this country.

In their new book “How Democracies Die” (Crown), Levitsky and Ziblatt argue that democracy in the United States faces threats that parallel those that led to its diminishment and demise in other nations. While the ascent of President Trump is a particular focus now, the authors argue that the nation’s drift toward authoritarianism, including the breakdown of political norms, predates his rise to power.

The Gazette spoke to Levitsky and Ziblatt about what triggered their concerns about American democracy, what is behind the perceived dangers, and how people alarmed by the shift can best respond.


BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
18 Apr 2025, 03:02
#14
18 Apr 2025, 03:02#14

sdfgh

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
18 Apr 2025, 03:39
#15
18 Apr 2025, 03:39#15

sdf

TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
18 Apr 2025, 15:37
#16
18 Apr 2025, 15:37#16

Americans won’t tolerate a dictatorship.


Liberals have put thie emphasis on the form of the government while people in ancient times put the stress on the goal of a government. As long as a liberal govermment keeps its form, it will never be acknowledged as a dictatorship. This is their trick. Ironically, it was exposed from the beginning. Tyrannies abolished slavery in Europe while newly appeared liberal scoieties thrived on slavery and strengthened the institution of slavery. Teling that WeThePeople will not tolerate a dictatorship is similar to saying 250 years ago, that WeThePeople would not tolerate slavery. It has no sense. Liberalism has always be totalitarian in its essence. It is on its proper path right now.

— END OF THREAD —

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