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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  Jimmy Doore reports that US and EU Officials are telling Zelensky to negotiate a peace deal.

Jimmy Doore reports that US and EU Officials are telling Zelensky to negotiate a peace deal.

Started by Beeno141 REPLIES728 VIEWS· 11 Nov 2023, 05:50
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
11 Nov 2023, 05:50
#1
11 Nov 2023, 05:50#1

The informed have known that Russia has won the war. Loons still thing the counter offensive will see Ukrainian troops in Moscow, Putin toppled and of course Russia dismembered. 

Russia would be Crippled by sanctions etc etc etc. 

We explained that the US led Nato instigated the war, kept is going and refused to allow peace but that they would lose the war. 

Unless you were a brain washed Globalist slave you would have realised the obvious. 

Bye the waty the current Ukraine population is around 20 million.



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Nov 2023, 06:53
#3
11 Nov 2023, 06:53#3

BB

BS - whenever anybody oppose he narrative the first thing  coming   up is sexual issues.    Thai  story happened years ago and never happened.     If it did why was charges ever laid?     .         

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
11 Nov 2023, 07:20
#4
11 Nov 2023, 07:20#4

Ana Kasparian...lol...Jimmy was part of The Young Turks...he saw the light and the started smearing him.

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
11 Nov 2023, 08:07
#5
11 Nov 2023, 08:07#5

put lipstick on the pig

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
11 Nov 2023, 08:37
#6
11 Nov 2023, 08:37#6

That thumbnail pic tells you all you need to know about Door...reveling at the idea that Ukraine has lost.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Nov 2023, 08:51
#7
11 Nov 2023, 08:51#7

The fact is sonething is wrong and w are told to beliee differently.   It centers around the word "stalemate",   The Ukraine army commander said a "stalemate" situation has arisen   and the fact seems to be that the Ukraine army commander used the term and Zelenskyy denied it and fired the Deputy Commander,   Zelenskyy said the term is undermining funding requests by the Ukraine Government - drives to get aid money from the USA and EU.   

After that happened Austin lied in Senate about how the counter-offensive resulted in Ukraine driving the Russians out of 50% of the territory the Russians occupied, while maps of the territory in Eastern Ukraine and there were celebration of a missle attack in the Crimea causing damage to a  very expensive air defense system and killing the Russian navy commander and 10 "missing" Russian generals,  

Zelenskyy now claims the Israel situation is detrimental to funding of the Ukraine as it is driving away Ukraine from the mainstream media.   So what chance is there of negotiations as to ending the Ukraine War other than on Russian terms,    .The Russians had sacrificed a lot to protect the Russian speaking people in Eastern Ukraine and there are two major Russian speaking cities remain under Ukraine control - namely Kharkov and Odessa.    The Russians would have negotiated a fair settlement with Ukraine before the war started - but the USA sabotaged both Minsk agreements - initially in 2015 and then in  2022  before the invasion started, - which left Ukraine as a country intact -  but with a new constitution being negotiated and approved in a referendum.   

Negotiations in the past was not implemented and to expect anything different in future would be unrealistic.    So what is going to happen in case of negotiation?     The 1953 borders of Ukraine will be implmented meaning that Odessa and Khrkov will not be left in Ukraine.   The difference could be  under a federal system  - with large decrees of independence from Central Government in the cases of the Odessa and Kharkov Oblasts being largely self-controlled by the Russian populations of the two Oblasts,    Odessa will remain in theory part of Ukraine - with virtually all Government  control being controlled by the elected representatives of the local populations - something like happened in the Crimea after 1991,            .    ,                       

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
11 Nov 2023, 08:53
#8
11 Nov 2023, 08:53#8

Notice poor Blobbie who has once again been utterly deceived by his Globalist mind keepers doesn't address the issue raised. Officials of the EU and USA telling Zelensky its time for peace negotiations.

Blobblie and wee Stavass are totally dominated by Globalist mind control.  Weak minded creatures born to be slaves.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Nov 2023, 13:13
#9
11 Nov 2023, 13:13#9

Russia has won the war in Hasbeen’s world, equals the Ukranian offensive has stalled. This the great military that Europe feared for 50 years..what a humiliation!

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
11 Nov 2023, 13:26
#10
11 Nov 2023, 13:26#10

...and everybody cheers on the meetgrinder in Ukraine...fucked up!!!

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Nov 2023, 13:30
#11
11 Nov 2023, 13:30#11

The ‘meetgrinder’ … sounds like a new dating site.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
11 Nov 2023, 14:01
#12
11 Nov 2023, 14:01#12

...and everybody cheers on the meetgrinder in Ukraine...fucked up!!!

You know that's a lie...why do you repeat it?

CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
11 Nov 2023, 14:31
#13
11 Nov 2023, 14:31#13

peedobeeno doesn't understand the meaning of stalemate.

Bet you're the idiot running around the room celebrating a great victory when reaching stalemate in a game of chess.

If anyone can claim a sliver of victory it has to be the minnow Ukraine holding out them pushing them back from the gates of Kyiv.

If as you have stated before Russia are just bidding their time why would they even consider peace talks. Putin loses face in doing so where a victory would cement him as a great leader amongst  his slaves.

As usual pedobeeno swallowing any old load of shit if its what he wants to be true

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Nov 2023, 14:47
#14
11 Nov 2023, 14:47#14

Unless somebody convince the House to give Biden the money to force the continuation of the war the Ukraine would be forced to try and make peace iwith Russia.    The Ukraine budget was reduced fcrom $58 billion two years ago to $38 billion this year - with $19 billion required to fund the war.    Of that $19 billion the US  was supposed to provide $13 billion in accordance with the request of Biden to the House - in other words the Ukraine budget is covered by the US to the extent of about 35%   Is that sustainable?   

The answer is simple - is the US puppet Government going to last without the US providing the financial means to survive?    It is effectively not only weapons be provided - but it means the USA are effectively paying the salaries of the soldiers and the nursing staff in Ukraine hospitals.   They are also funding the notorious corruption in Ukraine as well.   .  

This has always been a proxy war for the USA who ensured that the Ukraine Government always do their bidding.    So what is going to happen next/    The only way the US can stop the rot is to send troops into Ukraine to fight against the Russians.    Will Congress support such a direct war against Russia?    It is very doubtful and would be a very dangerous  thing to do?    Most EU countries are opposed to a war against Russia and none of them have the means to sustain it.    The US Army command is poor and they may decide to use nuclear attacks on Russia to get the upper hand - but will that not result in a nuclear response from Russia as well?     In such a response cities like New York, Washington, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Chicago will be eliminated from the face of the earth within a day from the USA launching  nuclear attacks on Moscow and St Petersburg.

Stav

You have been consistent in encouraging the war i  Ukraine - claiming that the Ukraine is winning battles  and the Russian are being defeated during the counter-offensive launched by the Ukraine army.   Are yiou saure that being the case?    

.        

.

               .          .   .    

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Nov 2023, 15:07
#15
11 Nov 2023, 15:07#15

Rooinek

The BS spreading must stop.   In a desperate effort to get peace negotiations undertaken by Turkey on the go - the Ukraine Government refused to enter into negotiations if the Russia troops threatening Ukraine and their condition was they will participate in the Turkey peace initiative if the Russian troops threatening Ukraine are withdrawn.     Russia agreed to do so without any major battles being fought and the withdrawal was completed.    The Ukraine army had zero to do with the withdrawal - the move was to get peace negotiations going.    It was tricky negotiations undertaken on Foreign Minister level in Turkey.   There were some progress made on the issue until the Washington Government instructed the Ukraine Foreign Minister to withdraw from the negotiations.    Those are recorded facts and has been confirmed by documentation released by the Turkish Government.

It is not very difficult to get to the core of the Ukraine problem and that core was always to be found in Washington.    Nobiody wanted the war in Ukraine - bar the USA.   There were two agreements signed before the war started and both were sabotaged by the US Government,.   The US feared that if peacefcul means were used to solvce the Ukraine issue - the US Government will lose the control they exercise over the Ukraine Government and that is the end of the story.

    


      

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
11 Nov 2023, 17:06
#16
11 Nov 2023, 17:06#16

"..and everybody cheers on the meetgrinder in Ukraine...fucked up!!!

You know that's a lie...why do you repeat it?"


A lie? ...please explain the lie to me...please convince me that people aren't dieing in Ukraine every day.


ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
11 Nov 2023, 17:54
#17
11 Nov 2023, 17:54#17

A lie? ...please explain the lie to me...please convince me that people aren't dieing in Ukraine every day.

Its a lie that everybody is cheering the fact that people are dying.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Nov 2023, 04:54
#18
12 Nov 2023, 04:54#18

Mozart

Explain to me something please.   The Ukraine budget of 2021 amounted to Circa $58 billion - since the war brke out the US Government has provided financial and armaments to Ukraine to the value of $113 billion.   Add to that the corca $10 billion in aid provided by the EU Governments and we have a case that the whole operation of the Ukraine is covered by the USA Government and the little addition provided by the EU Countries,    This year the Budget has been reduced to  $38 billion of which about 50% is funding the War.   

In his submission to Congress Biden wanted a further allocation of $13 billion.- which amount will ruin out in six months and a further request for funding is inevitable,   What are these funds for.   Pelosi called it |"Budgetary Support".   In the end the provision of replacement armaments for the US Army is covered by the defense Department budget being increased to $820 billion.    Seems to me the USA is effectively funding the whole operation of the Ukraine Government - not only the War.   Ukraine is notoriously corrupt - so is the UJS taxpayers paying for all operational costs of he Ukraine Government?   

Seems to me the USA is funding Ukraine fully - not only the War effort - and that resistance to further funding of the USA Puppet Government in Ukraine faces increasing reluctance against further limitless finding.   Resistence by the majority of the ordinary USA voters.    

Will  Biden get only a faction of the funding requested by him for using in Ulkraine.   and what will happen to the Ukraine Government and their war effort?    Without that funding  how long will the Ukraine proxy Government last?

         

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
12 Nov 2023, 06:31
#19
12 Nov 2023, 06:31#19

"Its a lie that everybody is cheering the fact that people are dying."

No, but they are cheering on the brave Ukrainians who are sticking it to Putin...the same thing though...sometimes it takes more courage to be pacifist...

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
12 Nov 2023, 06:42
#20
12 Nov 2023, 06:42#20

 

MO
MoonroverPro1,973 posts
12 Nov 2023, 08:12
#21
12 Nov 2023, 08:12#21

Don't think Putin will allow Zinsky to stay put in a deal. 

Best place for him is Hollywood. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Nov 2023, 09:11
#22
12 Nov 2023, 09:11#22

Moonrover

I am actually sorry for Zelenskyy.    In hsi campaign in 2019 he was advocating a deal to stop the Civil War in Eastern Ukraine through negotiations.   The moment he won the election in 2019 he turned his whole approach aound after a visit by Senator Menendez.who as Charman signed off on US Aid to Egypt amd was caught with his hands in the Cookie Jar.    After the visit no more talk about a peace deal in the Eastern Ukraine   Civil War.

In Roundabout October 2021 the FBI raided the home of Menendez and found about $500  000 in cash in the House - plus gold bars to the value of millions of dollars.   The FBI sealed the report on the raid for more than a year and when whistleblowers started to expose the conduct of the FBI iro Biden corruption - it was obviously feared that the existence of Menendez corruption will also be exposed.   So they unsealed the report and charged Menendez with corruption relating to Egyptian Foreign aid.- but not a word about Ukraine Foreign Aid.

The US Foereign Aid programs became a hotbed of corruption involving both US politicians and bureaucrats through kick back systems.    In 2018 and early 2019 Trump was horrified by what came out and instructed the State Department to freeze all payments to all foreign aid receivers and come up with a program to ensure kickbacks are not used.   He froze all foreign aid payments to all countries - also Ukraine.    Trump was then accused of freezing aid to Ukraine as a main receiver of US Aid.   In the end he told the US Defense Department to buy armaments and instead of cash provided arms to Ukraine.    Nancy Pelosi and Adam Schiff was hit badly in the pocket by that decision and they charged Trump with impeachment based on a whistleblower report submitted by a Schiff employee,   There wass no proof of anything and in the end the charges were rejected by the Senate.

So back to the present situation.    Initially Congress approved $40 billion in arms aid to Ukraine - and to that was added $1 billion in budgetray support.    Since then another $72 billion was provided to Ukraine by the Biden Administration and approved as budgetary support by Congress.    It is debatable how much of the $113 billion aid program was subject to kick-backs to corrupt US Politicians and bureaucrats,    

However, there was another angle to the story as well.    Biden was directly linked to Burisma corruption in Ukraine and Burisma benefited from it - Pelosi's son and his Russiabn Parner operated a g as and oil exploration program in Ukraine funded by the USAID program and Schiff got kickbacks from Stepanek.   Menendez gold came from where?     Pribably from Ukraine as well.    

So how much of the $73 billion acually benefited the corrupt Ukraine Government and how much the corrupt people in the USA?,    The trough need to be fed otherwise the whole system  wouild collapse.     A  very sick system and if people ask for a forensic audit of what happened to he money there is no response from, the Democrats.   

The Democratys claimn that Biden is not involved in Ukraine corruption - since they claim there were noi investigation by the Ukraine prosecutor of Burisma - which obviously was a lie.  

In any event - the majority of people of the USA  according to opinion polls do not want to see further money flows into Ukraine.     Haley wasnts the money to ciontinue flowing - hence Mozart's support of her candidacy.    Why should that be the case?    



                       .    

       

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
12 Nov 2023, 10:36
#23
12 Nov 2023, 10:36#23

No, but they are cheering on the brave Ukrainians who are sticking it to Putin...the same thing though...sometimes it takes more courage to be pacifist...

Its not the same thing.There is a world of difference between cheering on Ukraine's battlefield successes and reveling in lives lost. I don't cheer on Ukraine 's success because it leads to Russian deaths but because it brings Ukraine potential closer to liberating its homeland and reducing the possibility of Russia advancing further.

Sometime it take more courage to pick a side.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Nov 2023, 13:03
#24
12 Nov 2023, 13:03#24

Stav

A re you also cheering  on the murder and elimination of 15 million Russian speaking people in what is part of Ukraine?   Are those people also dwarfs in your books to be eliminated from Ukraine?     You know that the elimination of all Russians whose ancestors lived in Odessa and Kharkov for centuries are part of the U kraine Government?   Are you in favor of that as wel?

.   .    .        


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Nov 2023, 14:28
#25
12 Nov 2023, 14:28#25

It’s to be expected that the Western countries supporting Ukraine’s fight against Russia are experiencing funding resistance. But the $113 billion is small potatoes compared with the money foolishly spent in Iraq. And it’s being spent to support principles of sovereignty the West champions.

It’s up to the Ukranian and Russian people to decide when they have had enough. Until such time Ukraine will be supported.

This is an artificial war. Ukraine is no threat to Russia and was cynically invaded on a time line that betrayed no urgency. You don’t wait 8 years if genoicide against your fellow Russians is taking place. Not unless you don’t care about that at all.

All these justifications which have been used throughout history, notably to start the Boer War, are political misdirection. Nobody actually threatens Russia. With a stockpile of nuclear weapons and nothing the West wants barring oil which can be supplied from elsewhere, it’s the country nobody will attack.

Russia and China are both struggling with their economic models…..funny how the aggression ratchets up when that happens 


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Nov 2023, 15:26
#26
12 Nov 2023, 15:26#26

Mozart

The story in Ukraine started in 2014 when the USA  Government organized and funded a coup in Ukraine and a Civil War broke out in Eastern Ukraine duie to the type of characxters the US arranged t take over the Ukraine Government.   They all had links to the Bandera moement - who in WW2 sided with the Germans and caused hundreds of thousands deaths in Poland and Ukraine of Jews, Ukrainians and Poles.

The reason for the Civil War was clear - the new Ukraine Government represented a clear threat to the Russian speaking people of Eastern Ukraine.and the Russians signed two treaties to solve the threat problem peacefully in which the biorders of Ukraine was internationally recognized.   So what was clear was the USA wanted to control Ukraine and they unmdermined the two agreements.    The USA would have none of it - they wanted a war in Ukraine and got it.

Sure - you say the $113 billion akrady soebt in Ukraine is minor.   The USA has to borrow money to fund the war and wild expenditure programs of the Biden Government.    In the meantime the US Government allowed over 7 million illegal migrants into the USA  and they cost the Government billions a month as well.    

If one reads the propaganda the USA Government believed that they could get rid of Putin through the war in Ukraine.   The Russian arfmy wasz weak and poorly armed and would be defeated by Ukraine?    So Ukraine was a threat to Russia if the US Media is to be believed     In any event it was an unncessary war and destructive as well.    Hundreds of thousands of people are dead as a result of the war.    As you stated Ukraine was no threat to the Russians - but the unpredictable US Government was.     

As as I am converned the sooner a peace settlement in Ukraine is reached the better it would be for the Ukrainians.     In the meantime the fruitless expenditue of the Biden Administration is undermining the US Economy.   Money that should be us ed to help the working class and poor in the USA is misdirected to fund a war in Ukraine and support millions of illegal migrants that entered the USA.

.

     .                   .    

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Nov 2023, 15:53
#27
12 Nov 2023, 15:53#27

The US wanted a war in the Ukraine, you say. Nonsense, the US and the world was appalled when Russia invaded Ukraine.

The US budget deficits are too large. But here’s the point:

The CBO estimated that of the $2.4 trillion long-term price tag for the war, about $1.9 trillion of that would be spent on Iraq, or $6,300 per US citizen.



So every US citizen is paying about $400 to support Ukraine. Doable, not desirable but if you consider the alternative the money will be found. It’s a pimple compared to the market cap of Apple.

Funding the Ukraine will not change the lives of American citizens…ignoring Russian and Chinese aggression might. Nobody expects these countries to become Western democracies. But the world does expect them to live by the rules they have signed.




SE
SebPro2,680 posts
12 Nov 2023, 19:41
#28
12 Nov 2023, 19:41#28

Yes Mike, I feel sorry too , a pathetic weak character . A fake, a low class actor, with blood of his hands...a modern day Churchill...Hahahahahaha. 

https://youtu.be/VaJCUDOE6UA?si=oYYOQz4IsGp-w608

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
12 Nov 2023, 21:29
#29
12 Nov 2023, 21:29#29

,

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Nov 2023, 22:40
#30
12 Nov 2023, 22:40#30

Mozart

If the USA was part of the negotiations on what was gioing on in Ukraineand took in interest is how matters could eb settled there would have been NO WAR - but why the ehll did the USA organizedd and fuinded an unconstitutional coup in Ukraine in 2014.   They decided who should be in the new  Gocvernment and the Ukraine Constitution of 19891 was destroyed illegally.   That is a fact anxd what we had sincxe 2014 was a USA puppet Government in ukraine - virtually totally funded by the USA.    

The Democracy defenbd story is BS - the coup destroyed Democracy in Ukraine and was a Government installed and approved  by the US Government an autibimnous country?    The German and French G overnments trieds to find a peacedulk solution in Ukraine the USA sabotaged it.    The story was that there was reluctance against the war in Europe from the word go and two Governments supporting Ukraine fell in elections.    

You make an argument that the spending of money in Ukraine cost each US taxpayer $400 per year - yet the crazy spending by the Biden administration and the rising debt situation is estimated to cost every family $7 000 per year,    So the people wants to save money - not waste it on a useless and provoked war.     

Just a question to you - do you realize the threat of what Ukraine ultra-nationalists wants t do with the circa 15 million Russian speaking people of Eastern Ukraine?     The fact is their existence is threatened by the present Ukraine Government.    under a basis of ehtnic cleansing?   Those people lived peacefully in an area where their ancestors lived for centuries and was brought into Ukraine by the Communist Government to neutralize the Ukraine population whom the Russians since WW2 did not trust.    They openly preached ethnic cleansing since 2014 and used the Asov battalion consisting of mercenaries against the Ukraine Russian speaking population.   .   That organization was a private army consisting of mercenaries and was declared by the UN as a terrorist organization in 2015.   The Battalion used for terrorism against the people in Mariopol and Odessa was then absorbed into the Ukraine army.   The reason why the Ukraine Government include Nazi's stemmed directly from that battalion with its Nazi insignia and practices.     

Be it as it may - you said the US people are for the war in Ukraine and the EU voters are reluctant to fund the war - but opinion polls indicate that so is the US voters    61% of the voters oppose further US funding of the war.    Why should that be - since the USA propaganda media is in full support of the war?   The people do not support the war - why should politicians do? 

Why is Russia and China a threat to international peace and why si the USA not a threat.    The weak Biden Government is why the world stability had been destroyed in recent years and why the countries that used tio be firm allies of the USA are now in panic and looking at BRICS to protect them from the USA.    Threats to the world stability stemmed directly from the Biden Administration in Washington.        

.                .               .    

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
13 Nov 2023, 03:12
#31
13 Nov 2023, 03:12#31

ouMaaik tell us more about the elimination of 15 million Russian speaking in Ukraine, asb.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Nov 2023, 11:38
#32
13 Nov 2023, 11:38#32

36% of the Ukraine po/pulation are ussian speaking people with ntheir home language being  Russian.    There poeple live in Eastern Ukraine that was incorporated into the Ukaine in 1953 - when the Communists tried to get the safety of Ukraine as part of Russia assured.   That followed wehat happened in WW2 when the Ukraine seaking people favored and supported the NAZI''s when they invaded the then USSR.     There were two Ukraine extreme national parties involved - the main one being the party linked to Bandera.     Bandera was under direct protection iof the Nazi's and during the wear he resided inb a private home in a German Concentration camp in Poland from where organized attacks on Ukrainians and especially Jews and people opposed to Germany took place and from where more than 800 000 people were killed - including Poles - were exterminated.   

The Communists took control of Eastern control of Ukraine when the Germans were retreating after the battle of Stalingrad and interms of the Yalta agreement between Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill the Russians had to occupy Poland. Ukraine, Hunagary and Austria - as well as the zone to end up being called East Germany af ter the ward.    The borders of Poland and Russia was changed drastically and Poland lost huge territory in Eastern Poland and Lvov - a Polish city - was included in Ukraine and effectively made part of the USSR.    

After  WW2 the Russians took their revenge on Ukraine,    Hundreds of thousands of Ukarinians ended up in slave camps in Siberia  and 3,5 million Tartars from the Crimea wedre sent to Siberia..  Bandera was protected by the Germans and taken by them to Germany.   After the War the Polish Government requested that Bandera be sent to Poland and charged with crimes against humanity,    The USA refused - thinking that Bandera would influemced the Ukrainians to turn against the Communist Regime in the USSR should the cold war turn into a hot war.    The Russians knew that Banderas was kliving under US Protection in Munich and he was murdered by a Communist spy in 1956.

By 1953 after the death of Stalin - the USSR tried to stop the abuses suffered under Stalin and they took a number of decisions based on closing down the slave camps in  Siberia - the famous Gulag archipello.    After 1953 - the  remaining Tartars from Ukraine was allowed to return to the Crimess - only 200 000 of them survivied the ordeal and reurned to the Crimeas where they became a 5% comnponent of the Crimea population.     Thje Ukrainians surviving the slave camps in Siberia ws also allowed to return to Ukraine - but the Communists ensured that the influence of the Ukrainians speaking people of Ukraine be reduced by the incorporation of Crimea and large areas in Eastern Ukraine and Russian cities like Kharkov, Odessa, Mariopol, and Donesk and Bakhmut was incorporated into Ukraine.    When the first sensus of Ukraine was undertaken in 2001 it was found that 36% of the Ukraine population were Russian speaking people were in fact Russian speaking people.

In 1991 with the fall of the USSR  the Russians waere prepared to allow Ukraine with its Russian population minority to gain independence  based on Democracy.    A new constitution for Ukraine was compiled guranteeing human rights for all citizens.    This Constitution was ultimately approved ibn a referendum.   The Constitution provided for the borders of Ukraine with the Crimea given its own Parliament to run the Crimea on a Federal basis.

After 1992 there was a reviuval of the Bandera movement in Ukraine - but it always was a rather harmless community with ultra-Nationalist outlook.   They never had enough support in Ukraine to get elected.    By 2007 Bandera was declared as a National Hero of Ukraine on the insistence of the fringe group involved.    They evens tarted a private army called the Asov Regiment to support the ultra-nationalist movement.    

After a democratic election in 2013 won by an independent candidate who wanted the country to remain neutral the USA saw an opening to take voer the effective Government of Ukraine by a coup.   The USA realize they needed the support of the ultra-nationalists to achieve a take-over of the country in a coup.    They then started protests meetings in Kiev in October 2013 and thiose lasted through to January 2014 - when it became violent by the Asov Regiment firing at the protestors and the Police.    By Februray 2014 the elected President decided to elave Ukraine rather than being part of a civil war in the country.    

That was when the country was left without a constitution and the USA Government then decided who should be in the Interim Government in Ukraine,   The 1991 Constitution was abandoned and he USA wanted anti_Russiands to be in cherge.    Nuland - the USA assistant Secretary of State had a long discussion with the USA as to who should eb in charge of the new Ukraine Government. - the norm being who should be appointed based on anti-Russian ideology.    She even introduced the selected group of people attached to the Bandera movement to then Vice-President Biden.    Let me summarize the approach of those people in one statement made by one of the Chief Advisors of the present Zelenskyy Government:- who stated that the objectives of the Ukraine Government was to - 

*    eliminate Russian culture amongst all residents of Ukraine and he crimea;

*    eliminate Russian as a spoken language in Ukraine; and 

*    if that does not work remove the Russian speasking people from Ukraine territory through ethnic cleansing.    You can get this from Wikipedia - hardly a pro-Russian propaganda vehicle.

Initially the Russian speaking people in Eastern Ukraine would have nothing to do with the newly installed Government in Kiev adn rfused to recognize the new Government - bearing in mind the key people involbed and when the new Ukraine Government started bombarding Donetsk in 2014  sw civil war broke out in Eastern Ukraine.    The USA was providing aid to Ukraine to keep the enw Government in Kiev and the Russians provided the rebels in Eastern Ukraine with aramnets and technical help to keep fighting against the ultrNationalist in Kiev - which the Russians openly call Nazi elements.   

Germany and France saw the problems potentitally arising from the Civil War in Ukraine and organized a conference in Minsk to try and stop the worsening of the Civil War.   By then the Crimea Parliament decided that with the Ukraine cosntitution being discarded the situation of control over the Crimea was not legally sustainable and the Crimea Parliament called for a referendum as to he future of the Crimea.    The result was to be expected since 905% had no link to the Ukraine - they were eiher Russian seakibng people or Tartars. - only 5% of he residens of Ukraine had Ukrainian as home language and only 4,5% of the voters voted to remain part of Ukraine - while 95% voted for incorporation of Crimea into the Russian Federation.    The USA refused to accept the outcopme of the election as legitimate.    Two subsequent opinion polls held by a USA and Germany opinion pollstgers confirmed tghat support of being aprt of Ukraine is even less tna it was when he refernef]d=um was held.   

Be it as it may at the Minsk conference in 2015 it was decided that a ceasfiire takews effect on the following basis:-

*    That the borders applicable in 2015 (without the Crimea) should be internationally accepted by all parties concerned;

*     That a new Constitution dealing also with human rights of all ctizens in Ukraine should be compiled and approved by a referendum to be hed in the Ukraine; and\\

*      Ukraine would be a neutral country and not become apt of NATO>

This agreement was signed by the then Presidents of Ukraine and Russia - as well as the German and French Government leaders.    It was forwarded to the UN wqhere the security Council unanimously endorses it.

The USA  never accepted that agreement and deliberately undermined it.    So an opportunity to settle the problems in Ukraine peacefully was lost.   It was obvious the USA did not want to accept a constitutional democracy in Ukraine - and the constantly ubndermined implementation of the agreement.    

be it as it may the actions against the Russian speaking people in Ukraine got progressiely worse.   In 2015 the Asov Regiment attacked Mariopol and committed seriosu war crimes to the civilllian population adn in Odessa was used agaisnt protestors of the local union against Government abuses.    The Asov Regiment dfired at them and when the protestors fled to the Unuion building - a woden structure - the Asov Regiment surrounded the building and put it on fire.   Any people fkleeeing from the burning building was shot and killed.   Based on evidence provided the Asov Regiment was declared by the UN as a mercenary and terrorist organization and banned from receving military aid from anybody.   The Asov Regiment by trhat time considerably strengthened - was then absorbed as a Battalion of the Ukraine Army.   In the raging civil war the Asov Battalion was extensively used to terrorise and kill civillians and in the period 2014 to 2019 18 000 civillians mostly was killed in the Civil War.    A particularly nasty incident took place when a KLM airliner was shot down over the Government controlled area of Ukraine.    The Ukraine Government accused the rebels of Eastern Ukraine of shooting down the plane - but there was no conclusive evidence proving the invovlement of the Russian speaking people in that.

Initi9ally the movement to undermine the Russians speaking population troublled them only mildly.   When people soeaking Russian in public areas were fined and had to pay fines as a result.   By 2019 the Ukraine Government decided to ban Russian froim being used as a means of instruction in all Ukraine schools and they also banned Russian as a language been taught in Ukraine schools,   

By 2021 it got worse - especially in 2022 when before the Russian Invasion all Russian-speaking members of the Ukraine Parliament were arrested and nobody knows where they arfe at present.    Ukraine then went further and banned the fucntioning ofd the Ukraine Orthodox church with 80% of  the total population of Ukraine - because like all Orthodix churches in the wold they had links to  Russia.   

When the Ukraine ordered 90 thousand newly trained Ukraine soldiers into Eastern Ukraine  to finally crsdh then civil war in the country - Russia dxecided it was to act against obvious agression by the Ukraine Govedrnment against the Rusian speaking population in Eastern Ukraine to protect the Russians speaking people.   14 days before the invasioon took place Macron went to Moscow to try and stop the pending war.   All Putin told him was to implement the 2015 Minsk agreement and there would be no war.    An agreement was compiled on that basis and signed by Putin and taken to Kiev by President Macron and Zelenskyy signed it as well.   The US Government did not want that - they wanted war and they got it.

Since 2015 it was clear - all Russia wanted was neutrality on the part of Ukraine and protection of the human rights of Russian speaking people in Ukraine.   Nothing more.   Ultimately the Russians fortified what was the borders of the  Russian speaking borders of Eastern Ukraine and the only Russian speaking cities still left in Ukraine are Odessa and Kharkov.    It is just a matter of time before the Russian army attacked and conquer those two cities as well.    

      


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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Nov 2023, 11:52
#33
13 Nov 2023, 11:52#33

Mozart

Name me any countries that Russia attacked since WW2.    Before the Ukraine situastion the onluy country Russia attacked was Afghanistan and they in the end realize it was an impossible mission and wiothdrew from it.    The only country China in fact attacked was inviolvement in the Korean War where they provided aid to the North Koreans and still does.

The Russians do not want Ukraine to be anything bar neutral and the war in Ukraine has more to do with US agression against especially the Russian sepaking people in Eastern Ukraine than anythinbg else.    Your statement above is based entirely on what Haley said at the revcent candidates meeting of the Republicans.

By the way Kissinger at one stage said something very true about the USA.   To be an enemy  of the United States is dangerous - to be a friend of the USA is even more dangerous.   Example Iraq in the 1980's was a friend of the USA - by 1991 that changed quickly into an enemy of the USA.            

No lets go to the USA - name me the countries the USA attacked since 1945 in return please?

    .   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Nov 2023, 13:55
#34
13 Nov 2023, 13:55#34

Ever heard of Hungary?

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
13 Nov 2023, 15:08
#35
13 Nov 2023, 15:08#35

Nyet means nyet, if you know Russians they don't talk much, don't panic but their few words are meant. They regard talkers and emotionism as weakness, however they mean what they say. They are very sincere and loyal however once they trust you. Listen to Jeffrey Sachs, he understands them. There's an old saying, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". They remind me a lot of good Afrikaaners who have traditional family loyalties,values and patriotism. Men are men and women are women, period. Not polluted and confused about genders and roles like the perverted and confused western culture promotes. They are quick to forgive and let bygones be bygones...which reminds of Boer/ Brit forgiveness, ie Oubaas and Winston Churchill, but Jannie was the better man. De Klerk, PW and Madiba are more recent examples.The Brits generally however tend to hold grudges and issues. Real men fix relationships, weak men with fragile egos cannot. Get rid of the Nazi/Bandera polution in Ukraine and Russians and Ukrainians will unite, afterall they are "cousins" in more ways than one.

  Rugby players from SA who played club rugby there found a lot of common ground there, ask Dick Muir.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Nov 2023, 15:34
#36
13 Nov 2023, 15:34#36

I’m sure they were very sincere when they sent the tanks into Budapest.

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
13 Nov 2023, 15:51
#37
13 Nov 2023, 15:51#37

See what what I mean. Weak, irrelevant, snide, tit for tat grudge. Avoiding the myriads of lies and deceptions that are written down against the Hegemon that is so deceived that it holds fast in forgotten memories of destruction of weaker countries which it boasts of glories in Hollywood bullshitting movies. Be a man and own up, fix issues and not stir up...the coffin is not a frivilous fear but judgement by a greater Power has the last say in the eternal secret of destiny fear God 'cause it's the beginning of all wisdom.  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Nov 2023, 16:20
#38
13 Nov 2023, 16:20#38
Hungarian Revolution of 1956Part of the Cold War and the anti-communist insurgencies in Central and Eastern Europe
The Hungarian flag (1949–1956) with the communist coat of arms cut out was a revolutionary symbolDate23 June – 11 November 195623 October – 4 November 1956 (main phase)LocationHungarian People's RepublicResult

Soviet victory

  • Revolution repressed
Belligerents Soviet Union
Until 28 October: 
HungaryFrom 4 November: Kádár government Hungarian revolutionariesFrom 28 October: Hungary (Nagy government)Commanders and leadersUnits involved Soviet Armed Forces KGB ÁVH Loyalist elements of the MN Armed citizens Demonstrators Pro-Revolution elements of the MNStrength
  • 31,550 troops
  • 1,130 tanks[nb 1]
  • UnknownPolitical support Working People's Party(loyalists, to 28 October) Socialist Workers' Party(from 4 November) Working People's Party(dissidents, to 31 October) Socialist Workers' Party(to 4 November) Smallholders' Party Social Democratic Party Pet?fi Party Democratic People's Party Independence PartyOther reformed partiesCasualties and losses
    • 722 killed
    • 1,540 wounded[1]
    • 2,500–3,000 killed
    • 13,000 wounded
    • 200,000 exiled[2]
    3,000 civilians killed[3]

    The Hungarian Revolution of 1956 (23 October – 4 November 1956; Hungarian1956-os forradalom), also known as the Hungarian Uprising, was an attempted countrywide revolution against the government of the Hungarian People's Republic (1949–1989) and the policies caused by the government's subordination to the Soviet Union (USSR).[nb 2] The uprising lasted 12 days before being crushed by Soviet tanks and troops on November 4, 1956. Thousands were killed and wounded and nearly a quarter-million Hungarians fled the country.[4][5]

    The Hungarian Revolution began on 23 October 1956 in Budapest when university students appealed to the civil populace to join them at the Hungarian Parliament Building to protest against the USSR's geopolitical domination of Hungary through the Stalinist government of Mátyás Rákosi. A delegation of students entered the building of Magyar Rádió to broadcast their sixteen demands for political and economic reforms to civil society, but were detained by security guards. When the student protestors outside the radio building demanded the release of their delegation, policemen from the ÁVH (State Protection Authority) shot and killed several of them.[6]

    Consequently, Hungarians organized into revolutionary militias to fight against the ÁVH; local Hungarian communist leaders and ÁVH policemen were captured and summarily killed or lynched; and political prisoners were released and armed. To realize their political, economic, and social demands, local soviets (councils of workers) assumed control of municipal government from the Hungarian Working People's Party (Magyar Dolgozók Pártja). The new government of Imre Nagydisbanded the ÁVH, declared Hungary's withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact, and pledged to re-establish free elections. By the end of October the intense fighting had subsided.

    Although initially willing to negotiate the withdrawal of the Soviet Army from Hungary, the USSR repressed the Hungarian Revolution on 4 November 1956, and fought the Hungarian revolutionaries until 10 November; repression of the Hungarian Uprising killed 2,500 Hungarians and 700 Soviet Army soldiers, and compelled 200,000 Hungarians to seek political refuge abroad.[7]

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Nov 2023, 16:23
#39
13 Nov 2023, 16:23#39


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Nov 2023, 16:26
#40
13 Nov 2023, 16:26#40

Sorry about that:

The Hungarian Revolution of 1956 (23 October – 4 November 1956; Hungarian1956-os forradalom), also known as the Hungarian Uprising, was an attempted countrywide revolution against the government of the Hungarian People's Republic (1949–1989) and the policies caused by the government's subordination to the Soviet Union (USSR).[nb 2] The uprising lasted 12 days before being crushed by Soviet tanks and troops on November 4, 1956. Thousands were killed and wounded and nearly a quarter-million Hungarians fled the country.[4][5]

The Hungarian Revolution began on 23 October 1956 in Budapest when university students appealed to the civil populace to join them at the Hungarian Parliament Building to protest against the USSR's geopolitical domination of Hungary through the Stalinist government of Mátyás Rákosi. A delegation of students entered the building of Magyar Rádió to broadcast their sixteen demands for political and economic reforms to civil society, but were detained by security guards. When the student protestors outside the radio building demanded the release of their delegation, policemen from the ÁVH (State Protection Authority) shot and killed several of them.[6]

Consequently, Hungarians organized into revolutionary militias to fight against the ÁVH; local Hungarian communist leaders and ÁVH policemen were captured and summarily killed or lynched; and political prisoners were released and armed. To realize their political, economic, and social demands, local soviets (councils of workers) assumed control of municipal government from the Hungarian Working People's Party (Magyar Dolgozók Pártja). The new government of Imre Nagydisbanded the ÁVH, declared Hungary's withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact, and pledged to re-establish free elections. By the end of October the intense fighting had subsided.

Although initially willing to negotiate the withdrawal of the Soviet Army from Hungary, the USSR repressed the Hungarian Revolution on 4 November 1956, and fought the Hungarian revolutionaries until 10 November; repression of the Hungarian Uprising killed 2,500 Hungarians and 700 Soviet Army soldiers, and compelled 200,000 Hungarians to seek political refuge abroad.[7]


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