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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  The myth about a Ukrainian deal

The myth about a Ukrainian deal

Started by Mozart43 REPLIES1,478 VIEWS· 06 Jan 2024, 16:40
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Jan 2024, 16:40
#1
06 Jan 2024, 16:40#1

The lead Ukrainian negotiator, David Arakhamia, pointed to a bottle of sanitizing gel on the table, covered by a crisp white cloth, as Russian and Ukrainian peace delegations gathered in Istanbul’s Dolmabahçe Palace.

“That’s an antiseptic,” Arakhamia told his Russian counterpart, President Vladimir Putin’s adviser Vladimir Medinsky.

 “Ah, I thought it’s vodka,” Medinsky joked.

There was plenty of tension behind the jovial appearances during that pivotal meeting on March 29, 2022. Dmytro Kuleba, the Ukrainian foreign minister, had just publicly advised Ukrainian negotiators not to accept any beverages from the Russians and not to touch any surfaces, lest they be poisoned. After all, Russian forces were still at the gates of Kyiv, trying to overthrow President Volodymyr Zelensky and his government.

What actually happened on that momentous Tuesday and in the immediate aftermath has since turned into a matter of fundamental disagreement among Ukraine, Western nations and Russia. The Istanbul meeting has also emerged as a key point of discord in America’s own debate about the war, as indispensable U.S. aid to Ukraine remains stalled in Congress because of Republican opposition. Some argue that Ukraine blew a chance at the time to end the war. The real story paints a different, and far more complicated, picture. 

The first meeting between Ukrainian and Russian negotiators happened on Feb. 28, 2022, in the Belarusian city of Gomel, four days after Russian tanks crossed the Ukrainian border. At that encounter, Medinsky recited a long list of the Kremlin’s demands. It included the replacement of Zelensky’s administration with a puppet regime, Ukrainian troops handing over all their tanks and artillery, the arrest and trial of “Nazis”—a Russian euphemism for any Ukrainian opposed to Moscow’s rule—and the restoration of Russian as Ukraine’s official language. Medinsky even demanded that city streets named after Ukrainian national heroes be returned to their old Soviet names.

“We listened to them, and we realized that these are not people sent for talks but for our capitulation,” recalled one of the Ukrainian negotiators, Zelensky’s adviser Mykhailo Podolyak. Yet to gain time the Ukrainians agreed to keep talking.     

On March 10, Kuleba flew to the Turkish resort town of Antalya to meet his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, in their first encounter since the war began. “I asked Lavrov a simple question behind closed doors in Antalya: Minister, what do you want? That is all I wanted to know,” Kuleba recalled. Lavrov didn’t reply, launching instead into the usual Russian litany of allegations that Ukraine had turned into a neo-Nazi den hellbent on undermining Russia.

In the 19 days between the meeting in Antalya and the Istanbul talks, the battlefield situation shifted dramatically in Ukraine’s favor. All around Kyiv, nimble Ukrainian forces inflicted defeat after defeat on over-extended Russian units

Throughout the talks, the issue of Ukrainian membership in NATO was a critical part of the agenda. In the first weeks of the war, Zelensky indicated that Ukraine could forgo its dream of joining NATO in exchange for binding security guarantees from the West and Russia alike. Ukrainian negotiators also showed flexibility on Russian demands to reduce the size of Ukraine’s military and freeze the issue of who controls Crimea, a peninsula occupied by Moscow since 2014, for the foreseeable future. None of this, of course, was enough to stop the Russian onslaught on the ground and the Russian bombs and missiles that kept raining down on Ukrainian cities.

As Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan opened the Istanbul talks on March 29, the mandate of the Ukrainian team was to push for a Russian withdrawal to pre-invasion lines while showing openness on many key issues, with actual decisions deferred to a planned meeting between Zelensky and Putin.

Russia’s major demand, in addition to keeping Ukraine out of NATO, was to limit its ability to defend itself in the future. According to draft documents later revealed publicly by Putin, Moscow wanted Ukraine’s armed forces capped at 85,000 troops, 342 tanks and 519 artillery pieces. Ukrainian negotiators in Istanbul countered with a proposal for an army of 250,000 troops, roughly its prewar level, with 800 tanks and 1,900 artillery pieces.

Just as the conference started, Russia’s defense minister, Sergei Shoigu, made a striking announcement from Moscow. The main goals of Russia’s “special military operation” had been generally fulfilled, he said. Hours later, Medinsky appeared at a press conference in Istanbul with even more astonishing news. The talks held that day had achieved significant progress, he announced, and Moscow had decided to take steps to de-escalate the conflict. Battered Russian troops started to withdraw from the Kyiv region and other parts of northern Ukraine.

According to Putin’s version of events, Ukrainian negotiators in Istanbul had accepted most of Russia’s demands. “The agreements were practically reached,” he lamented months later. “Our troops left the center of Ukraine, Kyiv, to create conditions” for further talks to finalize that accord, he said.

Ukraine has vehemently disputed that account. Neither side made binding commitments in Istanbul, according to Kuleba. “There was no deal,” he said. “To engage in a conversation and to commit yourself to something are completely different things.” As for the Russian pullback, Ukrainian and American officials say Putin had no choice but to withdraw by late March because of Ukrainian military successes on the ground. 

Col. Igor Girkin, a retired Russian intelligence officer and the former defense minister of a Russian proxy statelet in Donbas, agreed. “If leaving the seized territory has become inevitable, it’s best to do it before your troops are routed by the adversary,” he said shortly after the Istanbul announcements. “We will still need these troops—the war will be long.” Girkin has since been imprisoned in Moscow for criticizing Russian military failures. 

On the evening of March 29, as the negotiators saluted each other in Istanbul and made plans to reconvene for the next round of talks, Ukrainian troops were already entering the town of Bucha near Kyiv. What the Ukrainians discovered there rendered moot any understanding reached in Istanbul. 

Like other northwestern suburbs in Kyiv’s green belt across the Irpin River, Bucha was a relaxed town of single-family homes and five-story housing blocks set amid pine trees, playgrounds, and parks. It had a handful of resorts, with swimming pools for the guests, and an equestrian club. As Ukrainian forces advanced into Bucha, they stumbled upon a horrifying sight: Dozens of bodies lay rotting under the rain on Yablunska Street and in surrounding areas. Some corpses were missing limbs, likely eaten by dogs, while others had brains spilling from cracked skulls.

As the soldiers probed further, they found several men, many of them stripped naked to their waists, executed and lying on the ground in the courtyard of 144 Yablunska Street. On sidewalks, in ditches and in improvised graves, there were other bodies with their hands tied. Some bore the signs of torture: poked-out eyes, cut-off fingers.

More than 450 civilians were killed in Bucha during the month the town was under Russian occupation. Atrocities had been occurring throughout occupied Ukraine, especially in Mariupol. But in Bucha, the Russian soldiers fled so fast that they hadn’t had the time to remove the evidence and conceal the scale of the slaughter.

As the footage from Bucha spread on social media, Zelensky—like most Ukrainians—was overwhelmed with fury. “The essence of evil has come to our land—murderers, torturers, rapists and looters who call themselves an army,” he said in an address to Ukrainians. “They have killed consciously, and with pleasure.”

Even though the Ukrainian and Russian negotiators remained in touch, fine-tuning the documents drafted in Istanbul the previous week, Zelensky signaled that the killings uncovered in Bucha had changed everything. “What has happened here is genocide,” he said, stern-faced, during his visit to the town—the first time he had left Kyiv since the invasion. “It is very hard to keep talking when you see what has happened here.”

There was no contrition in Moscow after the horrors of Bucha came to light. “It’s a clear provocation,” thundered Lavrov. Not a single Ukrainian civilian had been harmed, declared Russia’s ministry of defense. Medinsky said the Ukrainians must have staged the atrocities in Bucha because its name rhymed with the English word “butcher.”

On April 9, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson arrived in a Kyiv transformed. He was one of the first Western leaders to brave the trip since the invasion. Less than two weeks had elapsed since the Istanbul talks and, despite Zelensky’s outrage, the Russian and Ukrainian negotiating teams still pursued contacts via Zoom.

“I was a bit worried at that stage,” Johnson recalled. “I could not see for the life of me what the deal could be, and I thought that any deal with Putin was going to be pretty sordid.” Sitting down with Zelensky in Kyiv, the British prime minister delivered his pitch: “Nobody can be more Ukrainian than Ukrainians, it is not for me to tell you what your war objectives can be, but as far as I am concerned, Putin must fail and Ukraine must be entitled to retain full sovereignty and independence. …. We’re not directly fighting, you are. It’s the Ukrainians who are fighting and dying. But we would back Ukraine a thousand percent.”

Zelensky didn’t need much convincing. The conversation quickly shifted to the concrete ways in which the United Kingdom could assist the Ukrainian armed forces, such as the provision of military supplies. It was the first trickle in what would become a flood of increasingly sophisticated Western weapons. Meanwhile, online talks between Ukrainian and Russian teams fizzled away.

In the Kremlin, Putin was certain that Washington, rather than London, had forced Zelensky to abandon talks in the hope of exhausting Russia in a protracted war. Senior Russian officials kept angrily raising this point in meetings with their American counterparts. “Utter bulls—,” a senior Biden administration official told me. “I know for a fact the United States didn’t pull the plug on that. We were watching it carefully.”

Zelensky’s new position, which hasn’t changed since, was to demand a full withdrawal of Russian troops from all Ukrainian lands conquered since 2014, including Crimea, and the prosecution of Russian officials suspected of war crimes.

“In Istanbul, we still didn’t understand the type of war that Russia was waging, its genocidal intent,” Podolyak explained. “Once we returned from Istanbul, and the Russians left the Kyiv region, we saw the beastly crimes that they had committed there. And we understood that Russia will try to annihilate Ukraine no matter what.”


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Jan 2024, 17:23
#2
06 Jan 2024, 17:23#2

the arrest and trial of “Nazis”—a Russian euphemism for any Ukrainian opposed to Moscow’s rule—and the restoration of Russian as Ukraine’s official language. Medinsky even demanded that city streets named after Ukrainian national heroes be returned to their old Soviet names.

What a load of hogwash. How gullible  you have to be to swallow this nonsense. Poor mozzzietard has just embarrassed himself like Trudeau crowd giving a standing ovation to an Ukrainian Nazi. No serious person disputes that the Ukrainian government is riddled with Nazis. 

Mozzzietard should call his post the - The myth of Mozzzietard being intelligent exposed.

I will leave Mike to do the mopping up of this nonsense. 

Mozzietard lives in a phantasy world. To him Zelensky is a heroic war leader. Not a corrupt, perverted cross dressing tyrant. Everything is upside down in poor mozzzietards fantasy world. Ukraine is a thriving democracy with free speech, the rule of law and a free press and religious freedom. Ukraine for this lunatic is not one of the most corrupt nations in the world and a money laundering centre, its a paragon of virtue. Stopping the genocide against Russian speaking people in East Ukraine was not called for thinks the kindly faker.  And why cant the USA place missiles in Ukraine pointed at Russia. Ditto over 40 gain of function bio labs.

This same clown would have heartily applauded JFK facing down the Russians and getting them to remove their missiles from Cuba. Kennedy ordered a blockade of Cuba and was ready to go to war as obviously America could not tolerate thee missiles placed on Cuban soil threatening America. What a hypocrite.




MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Jan 2024, 17:51
#3
06 Jan 2024, 17:51#3

Unlike you HasBeen, I am quoting from a highly credible source that provides, names, dates and direct quotes. And I have made none of the claims you assert about Ukraine or Zelensky….you really should stop these wild statements.

I’m sure there was some anti Russian activity in Eastern Ukraine. But genocide? Genocide is what happened in Bucha, documented by neutrals.

There was no agreed peace deal and Russia has no right to invade Ukraine. There is no risk to Russia’s sovereignty, the last move East in terms of NATO territory happened 20 years ago. No country is going to invade Russia, the reason these countries joined NATO is because they can’t trust Russia. Amply demonstrated by the decimation of Ukraine.

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
06 Jan 2024, 18:04
#4
06 Jan 2024, 18:04#4

Russia took over from Germany's Hitler as the regime of Nazi's. That is why NATO was formed, and probably why Russia was reluctant to invade Western Europe. 

The NATO alliance was starting to wither away, but now Putin has made it stronger than ever - with more members. 

Russia hides behind nuclear bombs. Without these, we could have just sent in some of the elite NATO tasksforces to conquer Russia within a few weeks at most.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jan 2024, 20:15
#5
06 Jan 2024, 20:15#5

Mo/zart

What is your source iro the above story?    It seems to be on par with  the mythical peace negotiations in Byelo that never took place and was based on the story that a Ukrainian colonel told the media.   So give us the source please.

      

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jan 2024, 20:55
#6
06 Jan 2024, 20:55#6

SB

You believe all the BS  absorbed by the empty cavity where a bain is supposed to be.   You cannot think for youself and that is clear.   The strongest pro EU Governments in Europe are falling  one a ftne another. and are replaced by Govcernments who has had it with the .EU,    At the moment the EU is in a emergency ward in a mental hosiptial.    So instead of Europe being more united than ever    The EU elections this  year will show how really divided Europe is.   

There is no way the EU can survive in their present format.   Most countries want the Open Border Policy of the EU bannd  and their war on cows are rejected as well.      The  Socialist in Germany are down from 31% a year ago to 18% at presnet and their Coalition partners te Greens are down from 23% to 13%  There Free Democrat partner are down from 12,4% to 4,5

According to opinion polls the third coalition party support i now 4,5% - which means they will have no members in  the Reichstag if an election is held now.     So what will ahppen in Germany this year,    The Chritian Democrat Party in Bavaria will not stand for any coalition involving the greens - their support in Bavatia is less than 3% so the only Parties that can form a coalition Goernment will be the CDU and the PfD.   The latter party is conservative - bu,t made out to be Nazi's by the media because of heir opposition to the leftuiist control of the EU by the bureaucracy in Brussels,   It could even be that like in the Netherlands the rightwing party will have more members in parliament that is life very dificult for any Govenment that is bnt run by their party to function.    

France is also likely to go to he Party of Le Penn and that is another country that will insist  that the EU be modernised nto what it was supposed to be. - an economic union advancing the interests of European Coutries - not a super -government such as existent at present.   They want the countries to be ruled by elected represnetatives and be free to run their countries and not be subjected to rule from Brussels by an unelected buaucracy,

    

   .         

       

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Jan 2024, 21:29
#7
06 Jan 2024, 21:29#7

Drivel alert!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Jan 2024, 05:06
#8
07 Jan 2024, 05:06#8

Mozart

I ple aded with you to provide your source on what you quoted above.   Your reponse is not forthcoming and that says a lot about the drivel you quoted above.   So what is your source in this case?.  

You apparently are blinded by facts wh n it comes to elections in EU countries.   I quoted opinion polls in countries where elections are not held - but the  Socialist and leftwing Governments fell in a string of european countries in 2022 and those are in countries ranging from Sweden, Spain, Italy, the netherlands. Austria and Slovakia.

Because ymou refuse tio understand what is ahppening factually makes you write BS like  Drivel alert.    The only response one can ahve on that kind of rubbsish  used by you is BSW alert.   

So try again - but firstly provide your source on the issue as requested.   

.\

        . 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Jan 2024, 17:03
#9
07 Jan 2024, 17:03#9

Mozart

Still waiting for your "reliable  source"   I requested.   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Jan 2024, 17:32
#10
07 Jan 2024, 17:32#10

I’m not providing you any sources anymore. You aren’t interested in any information that contradicts your views. If you demonstrate you can debate like an adult, I’ll treat you like an adult.

But you can accept this reliable article debunks the whole….there was a deal blown up by the US….nonsense

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Jan 2024, 19:08
#11
07 Jan 2024, 19:08#11

Mozart

It is obviosu where the story came fcrom - it came from the Wall Street Journal.  

The whole thing  now is as farcical as the previous two articles coming from the Wall Streyt Journal based on -

*      the sory from a history professos  not knowing anything about Rusian History and getting his facts totally wrong'; and  

*     an emergency opinion poll done about funding of Ukraine after the CNN and other polsters reported that thir opinion polls indicated that 61% of the voters oppose any further aid to ukraine.  - it had to eb disproed because it would undermine the application of   Biden for an additional amount of $86 billion  and other polls indicated that the CNN poll was 100% correct.    

Gallop did h emergency pole in the middle of the month afte the facs of non-support was  premeditated - what was weird wa in the next month  poll  of Gallop they confirmed that 36% of the voters suport the  Biden adminsitration conduct relating to  the war in Ukraine.   Funny - because Mozart think we are idiots and so are the voters who oppose the Biden condcuct a to Ukraine but 62% of the voters in he midmonth poll supported  $86 billion of funding for Ukraine,       Steele Dossier 2    .     

So now this is number 3,   First of all Mozart denied that there was a meeting aimed at peace held in Turkey and was spreading  BS about a peace meeting  held in Byelo based on a story of  a Ukraine colonel.    He  now claims that the official reports on the issue by the Turkish Foreign about pogress  made at the emeting is a llie.   The Turkish  Foeign Minister  confirmed  there we progress made in the negotiations until the Ukraine Ministe was told by Washingtom to quit the meeting and to sign nothing on the issue of peacemaking.    Now we have a long  story   from an official from Ukraine as to what happened in Turkey.    It is total propagandxa BS,      

Let me be explicit.    I would rather believe the detailed report on the issue of  what happened during  the  negotiations  than the story above.    Seems to eb the Biden version of the Steele Dossier  of 2016.   It took months to come up with this BS  near to a week or two  before  a crucial decision on aid to Ukraine would be considered.    The conduct and activities of the US Government  in the war and the story was needed to counnter information availabe to House members.   So this is Steele Dossier 3  compiled by propaganda experts to lie to the public,              .   .   


ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
07 Jan 2024, 20:00
#12
07 Jan 2024, 20:00#12

Drivel alert!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Jan 2024, 23:19
#13
07 Jan 2024, 23:19#13

Stav

I am really thankful for your surival after a happy fstive season - we need your comical disinformation on site to laugh a t.     

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Jan 2024, 02:04
#14
08 Jan 2024, 02:04#14

Don’t pretend you have a sense of humor Clever.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Jan 2024, 09:51
#15
08 Jan 2024, 09:51#15

Mozart

I have indeed  - I really laugh  at idiotic prejudiced postings - especially by you.     

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Jan 2024, 11:32
#16
08 Jan 2024, 11:32#16

Why did you not provide a sourcxe since the last two cxaes whre you from  the Wall Street Journal  used to be really funny - because they involve themselves in propaganda spreading  tio the ignorant who believes in garbag e.   So you got the garbage you quoted from The Wall Street Journal a media channel involved in propganda spreading.   

I would have l aughed about the abiove - but it is really tragic that a person like you fell for it.  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Jan 2024, 15:19
#17
08 Jan 2024, 15:19#17
Actually no….the conspiracy sites you read are the garbage.  Combine garbage information with a second childhood obstinacy and all one can expect is drivel.
There was no deal …negotiations were blown up by the Bucha atrocity.
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
09 Jan 2024, 14:25
#18
09 Jan 2024, 14:25#18

Bump above Beeno's spam BS

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
09 Jan 2024, 14:55
#19
09 Jan 2024, 14:55#19

Poor mozzzz, this guy is so gullible. He thinks the WSJ, is credible Bwhahahahahahaha

Mozzzietard is becoming another sharktwit! Half baked loons!

Be careful Mike free speech advocare ou mozzzie will be recommending you have a limit to how many times you can post an even the length of your posts. Like typical libturds they cant win the debate so they want censorship. Hhahahahaahhahahahahaha the poor little darlings!


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Jan 2024, 16:13
#20
09 Jan 2024, 16:13#20

X

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Jan 2024, 16:47
#21
09 Jan 2024, 16:47#21

Mozart 

You have lost the plot totally.    The pre-requisite of the Ukraine Government for the meeting .in Itanbul was that the Russian troops  withdraw from threatening Kiev and they did withdrew.    A week after departure from the area suddenly bodies were discovered of dead people in the street of Bucha.    Nowadays i is hard to concoct such a thing.    There were no sattelite phorto's confirming what happened in Bucha.    There are elements in the Ukraine A rmy whjo murdered prisoners of war - the famous Asov Battalion killed thousands of civilians in Mariopol and Odessa when teh civil war continued in 2015 and the United Nations - who said it was not bodies tof people they killed and why did sattletile phtos not confirm the boddies lying in the street

The so-called inciodent - which at best is vague and did not link anybody by any proof to the Bucha incident.   That is just wild BS .     That withdrawal preceeded the meeting in Istanbul by at least a week.    The  Ukraine government refuse to start negotiations with the Russian army in Ukraine and the meeting only ciommenced when the Russian troops  left Ukraine - in other words at least a week after the Russian troops were out of Ukraine.

That turns you story in to total  BS.   Why do you oome up wiith a report fcrom the Wall Street Journal  18 months after the Istanbul meeting  based entirely on say-so of an offiial that was part of the  Ukraine negotiation team.    One thing is for sure - the funding of the  whole Ukraine Government budget and not only the war costs - are being held up in the House.   

The fact is there are House members who know what the Biden Administration did to cause and coninuance of he war and the situation now has reached panic level in Washigton.   The only thing  the US Government can do is to release a concocted version of what happened in Istanbul.

By the way I woull rather believe the official documentation on the issue released by the Turkish  Government than the BS and lies  coming out  of the Biden A dministration.    We do not know what happened in the Senate brefing dealing  with futher fuinding of the Ukraine  Go vernment was dealt with.   Whatever happened  two respected Senators - Kennedy and Hawley was not impressed by what they were told.    The Defense Deaprtment had an open plan leading to fnding without any supervision and audit control for decades to come.   So far the War cost the Ukrainian people dearly in loss of life and through other suffering.- yet there is no plan emanating from the U S A  as to what should be done in future.    As Hawley said you take out Ukraine and put in Iraq or Afghanistan and the same arguments were repeated for the ast 25 years.    

By the way Mozart - you claimd that Macron lied about the meetings  he had with Putin and  Zelenskyy.   Nice effort - but Macron and Zelenskyy held a press briefing  in Kiev after Zelnskyy signed the agreement and then accepted the instruction  from Washington to ensure the war continued.    Zelesnkyy went ahead and arrested all Russian-speaking membes of he Ukraine Parliament - who two weeks before  thir arresst voted for a resolution against  Russia not getting invovled in war in Ukraine.   So lets go to the ridiculous - wa the Bucha  killed people ex-members of the Ukraine Paliament - nobody knows where the arrested members are .    

You came up with a conspiracy theory and I respond in kind.    Mine may be factual - yours are p lain BS.   .    

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Jan 2024, 18:59
#22
09 Jan 2024, 18:59#22

Z

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Jan 2024, 19:19
#23
09 Jan 2024, 19:19#23

Nice way to admit defeat,   You have again being  caught writing  BS  on site and that Wall Street Journal article is another piece of shit.     LMAO.          

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
09 Jan 2024, 20:44
#24
09 Jan 2024, 20:44#24

efg

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Jan 2024, 21:05
#25
09 Jan 2024, 21:05#25

The author explained why the Russian troops exited Kiev….they were being killed. In fact they had to leave so fast they never managed to cover up the Bucha atrocities. After they were discovered Ukraine ceased to negotiate,

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
09 Jan 2024, 21:14
#26
09 Jan 2024, 21:14#26

ouMaaik, just heard from Vera & she reckons that you're talking total shite

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Jan 2024, 21:21
#27
09 Jan 2024, 21:21#27
Gosh, I was hoping he had consulted Bosman’s mother, then we’d finally know the truth.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Jan 2024, 05:39
#28
10 Jan 2024, 05:39#28

 Stupid idiot

There was no real battle between the Russians and Ukraine before the withdrawal and what you, got here was denied by the Turkish Government - so th e auhr did the ordinarym  - he wrote BS galore.    So far Ukraine has lost around 20% of its territory in th war - so who is winning  he War?   Definitely not Ukraine.  I rather believe what Senators Hawley and Kennedy said about he Senate Briefing by the army command of the USA.

Everything the Biden A dministration and the US A rmy command said turnedd out to be BS  - th at is on all topics.     They lied about the Afghanistan panic departure and now they are lying about the Ukraine situation.    Where did the USA find the BS they now h ave in charge of their army anyway.      .     .

Do us all a favor and stop quoting BS from the Wall S treet Journal - they publich propaganda BS  all the time and you believe it.     This is the third item in which you invented a peace meeting  in Byelo - you wrote now about something impossible and obviously you believe the the BS  you are being  fed. 

   .   .     

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Jan 2024, 18:36
#29
10 Jan 2024, 18:36#29
Your ignorance is painful. The Journal is a moderately conservative news source which is ranked as the most trustworthy in the US

In the survey, 38 of the largest and best-known news sources across print, online, radio and television were ranked from most to least trustworthy. Collectively they form the first Simmons News Media Trust Index. 

The Wall Street Journal is the most trusted news source in the country, according to the index, with 57.7% of Americans trusting it. It was the only newspaper in the top five, and was followed by ABC News, with 55.9% of respondents trusting the organization; CBS News, with 55.4%; and BBC News, with 55.2%.

…..

You really are a classic, ignorant blow hard.

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
11 Jan 2024, 09:20
#30
11 Jan 2024, 09:20#30

Bump

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jan 2024, 10:09
#31
11 Jan 2024, 10:09#31

Mozartr

You, posted three items from the Journal on site and all t hree was total B S  and fcacxtually totally so.     That is not a way to promote a media outlet. - stay away from controvcersial and non-fcactual BS  is the way to go.

By the way - you months ago came up with a story about a peacxe conference in Byelo - which never took place and the wh ol;e tale were claims made by a Ukraine Colonel and the whole string  is what he said.    Was that from the Wall S treet Journal as well?    Please remember the so-called peace talks never took plac - so th at tale was BS as well.      .     .        

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Jan 2024, 14:22
#32
11 Jan 2024, 14:22#32

Col. Igor Girkin, a retired Russian intelligence officer and the former defense minister of a Russian proxy statelet in Donbas, agreed. “If leaving the seized territory has become inevitable, it’s best to do it before your troops are routed by the adversary,” he said shortly after the Istanbul announcements. “We will still need these troops—the war will be long.” Girkin has since been imprisoned in Moscow for criticizing Russian military failures

….

Are you saying the actual quote is a lie Clever?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Jan 2024, 16:45
#33
11 Jan 2024, 16:45#33

Mozart

Diversion alert.    The fact is the articles were all three BS and if that peace agrement in Byelo came from the same source - the count is four.    

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Jan 2024, 16:53
#34
11 Jan 2024, 16:53#34

No diversion….you claimed the point about the Russians leaving Kiev was a lie. Well here we have a direct quote from a Russian intelligence officer making the point that leaving seized territory was wise. 

So what part of that is a lie Clever give us more of your Riversdale insight.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jan 2024, 02:41
#35
12 Jan 2024, 02:41#35

Mozaqrt

That comment of he Russian retired officer is worthless as it stated a faqct after the Kiev Foreign Minsiter left Istanbul as isntructed by the Washington regime.    It was at the time when  Ukraine sent 60 000 trops to Eastern Ykraine to crush the rebellion and had no beaing on the conference iself - but wa s a real worsening of the existing civil war..    

Like the US G overnment helped the Ukraine government - on a much lesser degree the russians helped the Ruissian speaking rebels in Eastern ukraine - but only on to separate occassions did Rusisa had troops in Eastern Ukraine - there were only two instnaces where it happened since 20154 whent eh covol war started and th troops were wihdrawn when the atatcks against Donesk were less  threatening     At the sytart o the invasion there was less than   1000 Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine and what actually ahppened wa that the Russian troops threatening Kiev was redeploayed in easter ukraiene as a result of the deployment of the 60 000 Ukraine forces to attack the rebels.   

In any event the Ulrainians are not winning the war - they are loosing if whether you lik it or not.    .    .    

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Jan 2024, 15:26
#36
12 Jan 2024, 15:26#36

I never thought Ukraine would last 2 months. The fact that they are losing the war doesn’t surprise me, the fact they are still fighting after 2 years does. And the glee with which some South Africans celebrate  Ukraine’s agony really surprises me. We used to be better than that.  

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
12 Jan 2024, 15:50
#37
12 Jan 2024, 15:50#37

The fact that they are losing the war doesn’t surprise me, the fact they are still fighting after 2 years does.

They are not losing. Mike is talking rubbish as usual. No one has the advantage at the moment but the danger for Ukraine is aid from the West stops, they can't win without it.

AJ
AJHPro3,183 posts
12 Jan 2024, 16:17
#38
12 Jan 2024, 16:17#38

Nor did they win whilst getting the "Handouts".

It is going to be interesting to see which country the Ukrainian leader and his cohorts are going to settle in once the funds really dry-up.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Jan 2024, 17:09
#39
12 Jan 2024, 17:09#39

Correction ‘may be losing the war’.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jan 2024, 17:48
#40
12 Jan 2024, 17:48#40

Stav

You are not interested in what is really happening .   The jargon sent out which  the media believes are ikn the main lies      Senators Hawley and Kennedy both said the US  Gov ernment info is fishy and obviously are lies, 

Maybe you should have a look at the comments of Senator Hawley after the Defense Force briefed the Senate about the Ukraine War:-'\

https://www.c-span.org/video/?530601-102/senator-hawley-ukraine-briefing  

One thing that amazes me is that the leftists are normally anti war - but in th is case thy ar in the  forefront when it comes to warmongering - eg the German Greens who are the most outspoken people in Germany supporting the war,

   

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