Ukraine and the Nazis

Ukraine’s human and material losses during World War II were enormous. Some 5 to 7 million people perished. Even with the return of evacuees from the east and the repatriation of forced labourers from Germany, Ukraine’s estimated population of 36 million in 1947 was almost 5 million less than before the war. Because more than 700 cities and towns and 28,000 villages had been destroyed, 10 million people were left homeless. Only 20 percent of the industrial enterprises and 15 percent of agricultural equipment and machinery remained intact, and the transportation network was severely damaged. The material losses constituted an estimated 40 percent of Ukraine’s national wealth.

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Hardly the basis for a lasting relationship.

Mozart

This is the normal tripe of the propaganda department of the West.  They have to hide the fact that  the main wars between Russia and Germany in WW2 was further east and north of Ukraine and the destruction was basically the result of Russian troops acting against the 80 000 Ukranians joining the SS and an estimated 300 000 Ukrainians fighting against the Russians.

Lets go back a few years before  WW2 when Stalin induced forced starvation in Ukraine - killing an estimated 5 million Ukrainians through starvation - ever heard of  "Holodomor"?   This was not confined to Ukraine - Gorbachev's two brothers also died as a result of forced starvation in the same period.   Estimates as to the actual deaths varied - but a potential 5 000 000  people died as a result of this forced starvation.   It really devastated the Ukraine.       

The Russian Communist purges of the 1930's .also led to chaos in the Russian Army.   In the purges  all officers above the rank of Colonel ultimately was murdered  by the  Stalin Government.    There were  no real senior officers left - and that was the situation when Germany attacked Russia.    The  first move of the Russians was to commandeer all  untrained 17 to 19  year-olds - 3,1 million of them from Ukraine - to face the seasoned German army.   Of the 3,1 million Ukrainians only 3% survived after 6 months fighting.

Most of the fighting in Ukraine was late in the WW and  destruction was caused more by the Russians than the Germans.   The end result of the phase was the dispatch of  millions of Uktrainians to the  slave camps  in  Siberia before and during the War,   For instance more than 3 million Tartars from Ukraine were sent to Siberia as slave laborers and  only about 200 000 returned to Crimea after Stalin died.   

However, it is not clear what you meant by the Ukraine population - was that the figure of inhabitants  in what was Ukraine before 1953 - or was it adjusted to include  the estimated population within the fake state created by the Communist regime in 1953 - including a vast area of Russia into Ukraine to off-set the  Ukraine population majority  in favor of the Russians - inclusive of the Crimea  and the Donbas  area?

True  - Ukraine was decimated during WW2 - but it is not clear how much was the result of German occupation and how much the result of the Russian counter-attacks towards the end of the War in the Soviet Union.    What was clear was  that the Russians took their revenge on the Ukraine for betraying the Soviet union and  the Communists regarded the Ukrainians as traitors - hence the 1953 change to the borders of Ukraine.

The fact is that hatred of the Russians ended up with  Ukrainians hating the Russians as much as the Russians distrusting them.    That hatred went  through to 1991 and especially after the coup in  2014 - when part of the leadership taking over was pro-Nazi's  - some of them even met Obama and Biden.   It also led to the establishment of the Azov Battalion comprising of both  Ukraine and other foreign citizens joining it and using Nazi symbols like the Swastika.   The battalion is a key part of the Ukraine National Guard.    

So to make out that the Ukrainians de not have serious deficiencies in their so-called democracy is a farce.     It was the Azov battalion that  was involved in continuous attacks since 2015 on Russian speakers  in Ukraine.   Before the invasion the Ukraine started to arrest Russian-speaking members of the Ukraine Parliament and they never charged them with any criminal offences - even though the said members voted against potential Russian intervention in Ukraine..   They have now gone the whole hog and declared a one-party state - so goodbye to Democracy in the Ukraine.    

Incidentally why is the Russian attackers in Ukraine basically occupying the areas where   the Russian ethnic population predominates and attacks on other areas were by rockets and planes and not by the "foot soldiers"?    The Russian forces are not really attacking areas that did not vote for the then President and Parliament in  the 2013  election.    The two major cities attacked are Mariupol and Kharkov both Russian cities that was made part of Ukraine in 1953. 

It is clear NATO wants to take over the Russian fleet bases in the Crimea and that is part of the propaganda machine at present and the Russians  will not allow that to happen.   Crimea - since the fall of the Crimea Khanate in the 18th century was never part of Ukraine until 1953 and  will never be again.    If they try that stunt WW3 is going to happen.

I think you should study what happened in the 1930's and 1940's in Ukraine before blaming  only the Germans for destruction of Ukraine during  WW2 - the Russian Red Army and Stalin was also  responsible for what happened.    Funny part is that the propaganda changed actual history since the Russian Invasion this year.    Now suddenly Ukraine is the victim and whatever happened is blamed on  only Germany  and not Soviet Russia  and obviously now Russia.   .   

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Interesting that the person on this board who knows the least about history has the most to say about it.

Then again, ou Maaik also has a lot to say about rugby . . . and tennis . . . and politics . . . and the environment . . . and many other subjects he knows absolutely nothing about . . . so we shouldn't really be surprised.

I at least knows about history - you, know fuck all about everything.    Toiotal dismal idiot if ever there was one. 

So Britannia was wrong…the Ukrainians never suffered under the Nazis. I find this thinking very analagous to the Ossewa Brandwag thinking in WW2…the Germans were right then and the Russians are right now according to this logic. And tiny Sudetenland and Ukraine were the aggressors and Russia/Germany were just defending themselves.

People believe this stuff!

So why are you posting Rooi?

I did not say the Nazi's did not cause damage to Ukraine - I merely corrected the bias story.   There was extensive co-operation between Ukrainians and he Nazi's  and the result was minimum reistence against the Nazi's when they entered Ukraine, the rest of Russia also offered more resistance - but millions of Russians surrendered shortly after the invasion started.   The fact is that the fight against the Russians when the Germans department was more vigorous  than it was against the Germans and the resultant damage could  relate  more .to that resistance - there were no love lost between Stalin and the Ukrainians and they fought fiercely against the Russians because they knew the situation was either they die in battle or they die by execution.

I asked you a simple question was that the situation calculations iro of the WW2 Ukraine or were it iro of the 1953 created Ukraine.  You may be wise to study the data of the Ukrain population as estimated.  The first census in ukraine was only held in 2001 - before that it was estimated based on models.    Without Crimea and the Donbas region  Ukraine and the Donbas region the present calculation is a population of  37,2 million.   

So those areas were not part of Ukaine by 1940                

There was extensive cooperation between the Italians, the Dutch and the French and the Nazis. Nobody calls them Nazis now.