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FORUM / RUGBY /  And the Chiefs' scrum saga continues,....

And the Chiefs' scrum saga continues,....

Started by ABasquefan23 REPLIES605 VIEWS· 28 Apr 2016, 12:24
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AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
28 Apr 2016, 12:24
#1
28 Apr 2016, 12:24#1
Explained: The Chiefs scrum controversy 1:34 PM Thursday Apr 28, 2016

New footage from last weekend's controversial Chiefs-Hurricanes Super Rugby match has emerged and is set to fuel claims Dave Rennie's team manipulated the game's rules to ensure depowered scrums at a critical point of the game.


The match, won 28-27 by the Chiefs, ended with "Golden Oldies" scrums, negating the Hurricanes' clear advantage in that area.


The New Zealand Herald has obtained new footage of the moments which led to referee Craig Joubert enforcing de-powered scrums for the final five minutes of the match and the Chiefs playing out the game with 14 men.


The footage is from a camera angle not shown during Sky's live broadcast.


The incident created immediate debate and today former All Black prop Craig Dowd wrote an ESPN column headlined "Scrum gamesmanship not a great look for rugby".

Like several observers, Dowd questioned the Chiefs' tactics.


(...)


The footage obtained by the Herald begins with a lineout won by the Hurricanes who then power towards the Chiefs' 22 metre line with the game in the balance.


The match is stopped due to Chiefs pivot Aaron Cruden receiving a head wound. Three Chiefs on-field personnel came onto the ground and one goes straight to replacement prop Siate Tokolahi who then sits down.


After several minutes, Tokolahi is eventually replaced, limping off with his arm around a trainer.


That forced Joubert to issue instructions that scrums would be depowered for the rest of the match, taking away a key advantage the powerful Hurricanes pack had established at scrum-time.


At the time of the incident, Hurricanes and All Blacks hooker Dane Coles complained to Joubert about the "amazing coincidence" of Tokolahi's injury after "the way we dominated their scrum".


Prior to the trainer talking to Tokolahi, the prop had not signalled that he needed any assistance and appeared to be waiting for the game to start again after Cruden was attended to. He had jogged from the lineout to the breakdown.But after being approached by the trainer, he went down on his haunches. The trainer then went to assist Cruden. Tokolahi stood up but a trainer again approached him and he went down again.


There is no audio available which reveals the conversation between the prop and the trainers.


While that unfolded, the Chiefs team manager on the sidelines engaged with the sideline match manager and Joubert came to the sideline.


Following a discussion with the match manager, Joubert, consistent with international rules, enforced depowered scrums.


The Chiefs, as is their right under scrum safety rules, declared that Siegfried Fisiihoi - who came on to the field apparently ready to play - was not proficient enough as a tighthead prop to play at Super Rugby level. That meant he had to leave the field, reducing the Chiefs to 14 men but negating the Hurricanes' clear advantage at scrum time.


The Chiefs starting tighthead prop Atunaisa Moli had left the field late in the first half with an injury and was replaced by Tokolahi.


The new footage will fuel critics' claims that the Chiefs manipulated the rules to their advantage. Fisiihoi, a converted No. 8, has played as a tighthead for Bay of Plenty in NPC rugby.


But Rennie suggested to Radio Sport earlier this week that Fisiihoi was not up to the jump in standard, saying he had been "hammered" when trying out as a tighthead scrummager at Chiefs trainings.


Asked about Tokolahi's injury, Rennie described it as "a little bit of a twinge in his back".


- NZ Herald


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if someone wants to see the video footage:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11629950

it's very suspicious, at least, that the prop didn't show any sign at all that he was injured untill being approached by one of the trainers-medical staff,..... he was ready for the scrum but in the exact moment that  the trainer talks to him, he went to the floor,...... and then needs the second trainer to approach him to go again to the floor,..... and begin limping,....

very suspicious also that no of the trainers-medical staff nor the same prop check out, examine, look, point, touch the injured area (his back),...... they are just talking the whole time,...... and then he limped from one leg when he had the back injured?

Dave Rennies answer to the saga (from Rugby 365):

Bloody angry' Chiefs coach says he's no cheat Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:41

REACTION:
Chiefs coach Dave Rennie angrily denied cheating in the dying minutes of his side's nail-biting Super Rugby win over the Hurricanes last weekend.

The Chiefs stayed top of the table after scraping to a 28-27 win, with the match going to uncontested scrums for the last five minutes - after replacement tighthead prop Siate Tokolahi was injured battling the Hurricanes dominant pack.


Hurricanes skipper Dane Coles remarked to referee Craig Joubert at the time that it was "an amazing coincidence" the injury came when the home side's scrum was on top.

Then a New Zealand radio station posted a video on Facebook, followed by a similar post from the New Zealand Herald newspaper, showing Tokolahi apparently running freely from a scrum and a line-out with no contact from any other player before going down injured.


Rennie, who has been touted as a possible future All Blacks coach, said Tokolahi was genuinely injured and denied his departure was a tactical move.


"I'm bloody angry, because they're challenging our integrity," he told Radio Sport.


"We've got two injured tighthead props and that forced us to go down to 14 players - it happens, you don't want it to happen but you have to deal with it."


Under the rules of rugby, if a member of the tight five has to leave the field and a properly trained replacement is not available, then scrums are not contested as a safety measure.

"It's such a rarity, I've had 78 games in charge of the Chiefs and it's the first time we've gone to golden oldie [uncontested] scrums," he said.


Tokolahi has been named on the bench for Friday's match against the Sharks, but Rennie said that should not cast doubt on the seriousness of the injury he suffered against the Hurricanes.


"A lot of guys go off injured and front up the next week," he said.


Agence France-Presse



JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Apr 2016, 12:46
#2
28 Apr 2016, 12:46#2
There's no way of knowing for sure if the the Chiefs coaching staff instructed  Tokolahi to fake an injury. Maybe the trainer saw he was injured from the sideline and when he came onto the field he checked him. We don't have the audio so we don't know. We also don't have the audio between the coach and the trainer so if the coaches told the trainer to get Tokolahi to fake it we don't have evidence. 
It does seem like a gamble to decide to play with 14 players just so you can get golden oldies. 15 players usually score on 14 and there was about 5 minutes left on the clock.
Anyway, plenty of ammunition to fuel the lunatic fringe who always see "cheating" and conspiracies in every kiwi game. We can only be thankful they weren't playing a SA team because then we would have heard a bleating level never heard in human memory (well perhaps the bleating over our good mate ref. Brycy Lawrence would have been louder) .
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
28 Apr 2016, 12:47
#3
28 Apr 2016, 12:47#3
Glad to see Kiwis are finally acknowledging this issue that I raised earlier today here.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Apr 2016, 12:52
#4
28 Apr 2016, 12:52#4
No fault is acknowledged Rooinek, kiwis are just being transparent on the matter and reporting different interpretations of the "unfortunate injury".
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
28 Apr 2016, 13:17
#5
28 Apr 2016, 13:17#5
 @JW,

"Maybe the trainer saw he was injured from the sideline and when he came onto the field he checked him."

the problem is that the trainer didn't check anything,..... he didn't check, he didn't examine, he didn't touch, he didn't even look at the injured area,..... which is quite strange when dealing with an injury,....

Besides all the arguments pointed in the article there's the fact that a scrum in front of the posts had been called,....... with the absolute dominance of the canes' scrum, specially over the "injured" player, the most probable outcome of it would have been a penalty to the canes just in front of the post on the 22 line,........ at least, the risk of this penalty to be called was very, very, very high,........ and it would have meant 3 sure points for the canes and the victory,........ but then the prop got "injured" and an uncontested scrum is called


JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Apr 2016, 13:22
#6
28 Apr 2016, 13:22#6
For the coach to figure this all out, communicate with the trainer & then have the trainer get on the field and instruct the "injured player" would have been a feat of thinking, deciding and communicating. 
If Rene didn't know he would have to play with 14 men by using this tactic then it is more believable that he did it, but if he did know he would have to play with 14 men then he really took a gamble with 5 minutes to play.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Apr 2016, 13:35
#8
28 Apr 2016, 13:35#8
 This thing is getting smelly as ABF pointed out.  The best thing to do is to watch out for a repeat of dubious injuries.  The Chiefs claims a back injury - the player limbs off the field with his arm in a sling - the trainer is not attending to any injury.   So what actually happened?
There are some reports in the media on the issue - so suddenly Rennie gets ballistic - claiming he is not a cheat.   If he was not directly attacked personally - why the defense?
I suspect that the Chiefs realized as ABF said that a penalty in front of the goal posts was a huge possibility and then the game could be lost.   So I think there was some skulduggery.   
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
28 Apr 2016, 14:14
#9
28 Apr 2016, 14:14#9
 JW,

"If Rene didn't know he would have to play with 14 men by using this tactic then it is more believable that he did it"

this is probably what happened,........ at least what I have in mind is a very similar incident (re the uncontested scrum not the possible or suspected "fake" injury) in the 2015-Rugby Championship game btwin AB and the Springboks,........

here's the law discussion about it at Rugby 365:

http://www.rugby365.com/laws-referees/law-discussions/67566-law-discussion-uncontested-scrums

or at Roar:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/07/30/why-did-we-go-to-uncontested-scrums-in-the-springboks-versus-all-blacks-game/

from this last one:

"In terms of personnel, South Africa started with a front row of Tendai Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis and Jannie du Plessis.

Jannie du Plessis came off at halftime due to injury, to be replaced by the designated replacement tighthead prop, Vincent Koch. Koch came off in the 61st minute due to blood, and was replaced by the designated replacement loosehead prop, Trevor Nyakane.

When Nyakane came on, referee Jérôme Garcès of France received a message via his earpiece to go to uncontested scrums"

in this case the springboks were allowed to change the player injured, hence to continue playing with 15 men,...... but the scrums went uncontested
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
28 Apr 2016, 14:18
#10
28 Apr 2016, 14:18#10

 ...not that I feel I need to defend anyone as it seems to me that if Woodward had''nt dropped that final pass i don't think we would even be talking about how the Chiefs had only 14 players at the end...


but unless you're are a doctor who specialises in back injuries, you are just making assumptions and accusations based on fk all really...
 

'If they went back to Beauden Barrett's try, which was about four minutes earlier, they'll see footage of our physio tending to Siate," Rennie said.
"He's bent over, he's putting heat into his back and so on. And the footage they show of him running, s**t, he's barely got above a jog, so he's clearly struggling....'





AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
28 Apr 2016, 14:49
#11
28 Apr 2016, 14:49#11
 @Brycy,

"'If they went back to Beauden Barrett's try, which was about four minutes earlier, they'll see footage of our physio tending to Siate," Rennie said."

there's no footage at all of the "physio tending to Siate",...... all I can see is Siate trying to tackle (and missing) on Barret (which led to his try) and then the prop standing up and running to the try line when barret got his try

"And the footage they show of him running, s**t, he's barely got above a jog, so he's clearly struggling....'

he's running at the same pace than the rest of the forward pack,...... in fact he arrived earlier than Elliot and the replacement lock


AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
28 Apr 2016, 16:31
#13
28 Apr 2016, 16:31#13
 sorry,...... watched again the video and there's 1 second footage,....... but it doesn't seem to me like it's the tending of an injured player,...... seems more like when the whole team get together after a try and the waterboy and the rest of the staff go there to take water, talk to the palyers and tend small bruises and hits,..... the player never went to the floor,...... he inmedeately stand up after the missed tackle, run to the try line and stand there

I will post the video footage as soon as I upload it
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
29 Apr 2016, 07:10
#14
29 Apr 2016, 07:10#14
hmmmm theres a good case here for the chiefs and rennie to answer too, and where better than ruckers forum kangaroo court with judge uzumaki presiding...

ive watched the footage (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11629950} a number of times now and the evidence does paints a very suspicious picture.

here is what IMO are key points in the trial of the week...

- chiefs scrum was getting absolutely pwned by the canes

- chiefs at the time of that stoppage had just been awarded a scrum. a defensive scrum in there 22.

- the prop in question siate tokolahi from the moment the lineout that preceded the incident was formed,to the time stoppage occurred due to crudens injury, showed ZERO signs of discomfort let alone an injury.

- tokolahi continues to show no sign of injury as cruden was being treated, and only goes to ground once the trainer spoke with him.
there is no time where the prop looked to be in distress.

- very surprising is that tokolahi leaves the field (from what rennie laters says was due to a twinge in his back), and leans on medic as he leaves the field, but this time in great distress.

- golden oldies was enforced which gave the struggling chiefs scrum the parity it couldnt get all game.
this allowed the chiefs to get out of danger, as they were defending a scrum on their 22.

judge uzumaki verdict
there was clearly enough evidence to warrant questions be asked. but while the video footage leads to some pretty strong conclusions, without any audio evidence the video footage is only strong enough to warrant strong questions and give rennie and the chiefs dirty looks.
judge uzumaki rules in favour of the chiefs and rennie.....NOT GUILTY!!!

the sad thing about all this is that the chiefs pack will now be under even more pressure and should another injury befall a frontrow and his replacement sub, a patter of deceit will emerge and the chiefs and rennies image will be even more tarnished.

this is particularly worrying considering the chiefs face the sharks this round.
sharks pack on paper should get the upperhand  on the chiefs and if the same shenanigans happen there will be huge uproar umlike anything weve ever heard before.
our saffa brus are always screaming about one rugby injustice or another, and very rarely do they have a leg to stand on, so the chiefs frontrow better not give them a reason.
if a frontrow should get injured, his replacement vetter not, and if he is, thats just tough bikkies, cos he needs to suck it up for the sake of the chiefs honour.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
29 Apr 2016, 07:23
#15
29 Apr 2016, 07:23#15
Spoken like a true Canes fan Naru-San
I agree that there is not enough evidence as there is no sound. 
What really happened:
Chiefs used smarts throughout the game & managed to keep the wee Canes under control with some good back play & McKenzie's boot. 
  1. Canes got desperate & gave Chiefs noble props some niggle
  2. Chiefs props play on gallantly until muscle strains & other injuries could not be handled any more.
  3. Canes start needlessly crowing about their dominant scrum
  4. Chiefs finely pull injured props off even though they refused to go down until instructed to by the trainer. 
  5. Trainer demonstrated Chiefs commitment to players health & insisted prop come off even though they knew Chiefs would have to play with 14 men
  6. Chiefs showed the world how to win even though the odds are against them.
  7. Canes blew their chances even though they had 5 minutes to do it & a 1 man advantage.

That's the way the cookie crumbles, Congrats Chiefs, well played Canes... Next game please
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Apr 2016, 07:28
#16
29 Apr 2016, 07:28#16
 Let me remind you that the Chefs loss to the Lions at home was due entirely to their crinkle paper scrumming and it is nothing new at all.   So the chances are that they may have crooked that one to avoid a penalty in their own 22.  No wonder Rennie is over-protesting his innocence.  
However, the proof that it was a crooked issue is not clear and Sasue is correct - the Chiefs will be watched for similar occurrences in future and if they did use a similar stratagem against other teams - all hell will break lose.   .      
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
29 Apr 2016, 07:36
#17
29 Apr 2016, 07:36#17
 It is important that teams know the rules & don't break them. They should also know the ref
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
29 Apr 2016, 08:57
#18
29 Apr 2016, 08:57#18
@dr win,

LMFAO,

".... & managed to keep the wee Canes under control with some good back play & McKenzie's boot."
that as u say is how the cookie crumbled, and i was pretty peed off with barrets goal kicking display in that game.

one funny thing is my brother watched the game with me and he is a diehard highlanders supporter, he took great joy at my annoyance with barrets goal kicking display, and even greater joy at my annoyance that mackenzie was landing all of his. during mackenzies 4th conversion, i said to my bro during mackenzies preritual kicking routine that i wanted to punch that creepy smile off his face, he found this hilarious and choked with laughter cos in every other chief game, ive been singing mackenzies praises,

ok time to watch the chiefies and the sharks, ill be watching the chiefs forward pack with a microscope, so beware mr rennie i wont stand for any tomfoolery,

GO CHIEFS!!!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Apr 2016, 16:03
#19
29 Apr 2016, 16:03#19
 The Chiefs find a new way to assist their scrumming.   The scrummies throw-in into scrums were so crooked that the Locks took over the hooking function.  They were fortunate - the ref pretended not to see where the ball went and that would have been a serious problem if the ref was alert to that technique.    
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Apr 2016, 17:48
#20
29 Apr 2016, 17:48#20
 nz rugby at work!
  1. At the time of the incident, Hurricanes and All Blacks hooker Dane Coles complained to Joubert about the "amazing coincidence" of Tokolahi's injury after "the way we dominated their scrum".
  2. The new footage will fuel critics' claims that the Chiefs manipulated the rules to their advantage. Fisiihoi, a converted No. 8, has played as a tighthead for Bay of Plenty in NPC rugby.


    But Rennie suggested to Radio Sport earlier this week that Fisiihoi was not up to the jump in standard, saying he had been "hammered" when trying out as a tighthead scrummager at Chiefs trainings.


    Asked about Tokolahi's injury, Rennie described it as "a little bit of a twinge in his back". it's very suspicious, at least, that the prop didn't show any sign at all that he was injured untill being approached by one of the trainers-medical staff,..... he was ready for the scrum but in the exact moment that  the trainer talks to him, he went to the floor,...... and then needs the second trainer to approach him to go again to the floor,..... and begin limping,....


    very suspicious also that no of the trainers-medical staff nor the same prop check out, examine, look, point, touch the injured area (his back),...... they are just talking the whole time,...... and then he limped from one leg when he had the back injured?

I could not watch the Chiefs Sharks game but hear the Sharks lost a close match. Cant but wonder what role the ref had
It s all very unsavoury stuff.



BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Apr 2016, 17:57
#21
29 Apr 2016, 17:57#21
 Glad to see my good friend ou rooitwit noticing how pap the chiefs are at scru time!. 
I have been pointing this out for some seasons now and he has finally got it!
It was of course a travesty that the wee chiefies won but thats the way it goes when yo can get away with things like this.JW you and brycy need to pull yourself together. Brycy the mooooo la magic in the scrums just aint working boet. Try getting in some forwards?
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
29 Apr 2016, 19:36
#22
29 Apr 2016, 19:36#22
Chiefs looked very poor at home today. Playing against the 4th best S18 team in SA. Sharks still hanging on to a few guys that should be shown the door. And no, no audio evidence of the Chief's uncontested scrum shenanigans. Probably because the coach thought better of grabbing the commentator's mic and using it to communicate his plans to the guys down stairs. So, it's suspicious at best. Guys I don't need to remind you! We are talking about NZ here. The home of honor and awesomeness ;)
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
29 Apr 2016, 20:49
#23
29 Apr 2016, 20:49#23
Chiefs didn't play that well from what I've read, I will watch the game tomorrow. Glad Cruden kicked the goals (5-7 ain't too bad). A win is a win though.
Plum, I agree with your  statement:
 "Guys I don't need to remind you! We are talking about NZ here. The home of honor and awesomeness"
I corrected your punctuation at the end of the quote, there's no need for a semi-colon and a closing parenthesis either
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
29 Apr 2016, 21:01
#24
29 Apr 2016, 21:01#24
Yeah yeah JW. Suck it! Duck tits!
— END OF THREAD —

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