And then there were none......

...no bright young talent in the starting 15.  Sapp's list  have all fallen like nine pins: Jantjies and JJ to outer darkness with the start of serious rugby. Mvovo quickly demoted out of the match 22. Etzebeth gone....maybe for a while, as Bakkies works his way back into the starting team. Coetzee is now seen as an impact player, the kiss of death. Others like Kitshoff, Kolisi, Jordaan and Sefontein not apparently considered.

Goosen is the only youngster with upward momentum, and by coincidence the super talent of the group.

We learn the lesson again Sapp. These young players have to do their apprenticeship.....and they have to toughen up.....test rugby is not for sissies or for lighties.

Much truth in what you say Moz.  One needs an apprenticeship in Super 15 unless you are a way out genius - but even then you need time as a youngster to toughen up - which actually makes a player like Etzebeth unusual as he lays the role of a enforcer.

A fo rtheguys you mention. Coetzee is out od poition perhpas. he looks like a grea tnumber 8 in the making. Meyer has t orealise this. A high quality player. Jantjies and JJ are still kids and more so Kitshoff and company. Thier time will come - certainly I rate Jordaan, Kitshoff and Serfontein from the little I saw of him.

Its all a question of timing Moz. Snapster tends to jump the gun a tad. One thing I will say about snapster is that he does have his finger on the pulse of young talent coming up but making them all bokke at 20 doesnt work really. Its a massive jump from under 21 to super 15 and another to test level.

I would love to see the Bokke under 21 side facing a Super 15 side of lets say mid table level.  My take is that they would be well beaten even though they are potentially better players in the long term?

My guess is our U 21 World Champs would lose by 50 points to the Lions. Some of these players will hopefully come good. I said during the S15 that my picks would be Goosen, Kitshoff, Coetzee and Etzebeth. I'm not so sure about Kitshoff these days ,and I rather like Jordaan. 

But there isn't much merit in spotting these guys early......they have to make their mark in the S15 and then again when given a test chance. So far Etzebeth has been ok and Coetzee has had some bright moments....but neither has made a real difference when things got tough.

Wow brilliant post Moz!!!! Its great to see how the likes of Lambie, JJ, Taute, Jordaan, Serfontein, Goosen, Jantjies, Steph du Toit, CJ Stander, Elstadt, Kolisi and co have contributed to how poor the Boks have been under Meyer?????

I have read some crap in my time, but hell this takes the cake? Surley your post would carry a little weight if all these kids had actually played under Meyer and failed?????

Instead good old Meyer continues to invest is the useless Morne, the way past it Jean......and in your eyes these two are better options than the quality younsgters we have on board. Good old Meyers selections to date are hardly a yardstick now are they? Hell we scraped a draw against the Argies and lose to Oz and you think Meyer is on the right track discarding youngsters he has not even tried?

Let me guess, you would prefer to see more of the likes of Morne and Jean in our side........hell lets get more washed up hasbeen involved - why no bring back Joubert, du Preez, Smit, Bakkies, Juan and Schalk.........these guys should work a treat against the AB's!!

It is beyond comprehension that any supporter could agree with the Meyer plan and turn their backs on players that represent our future. How could any supporter think that Morne would be a better option than Goosen, Lambie or Jantjies at 10 or that Jean is a better option than JP, JJ, Jordaan or Taute at 13......the list is endless.

I suggest next time you try rely on reality as a measure - that reality would entail the likes of JJ having played a handful of tests and failed!!!

You miss the point Dave....they were never serious selections to begin with. What coach would put JJ in at test outside centre when he was beaten through the outside gap by a flank? When he cant defend his channel in the CC?

Most of these players were in for window dressing. And those that played have been less than satisfactory.

Learn for heaven sake.

Oh what nonsense, why on earth would he need to window dress with youngsters.......non-white players maybe but not youngsters.

Given how poor Jean has been defensively at 13, why on earth would JJ be a risk given how good he looks on attack?

Its complete bullshit, if the guy had any balls he would have entrusted these kids with the role of taking Bok rugby forward instead of cocking things up with these old timers who are clearly past their sell by date. The best forwards on display under Meyer have been Coetzee, Bismark and Etzebeth.....two of them kids. Good old Meyer has now dropped Coetzee to the bench - go figure!

There have been no quality performances in the backs, because good old Meyer showed no faith in Hougaard at 9 and has failed to pick any of the youngsters to add some clout, instead we are faced with old timers like Kirchner, Habana, Jean, Morne and Pienaar.......you get the picture here? Why are we failing - because we are stuck with a bunch of hasbeens and a coach stuck in a Bulls time warp.

Select the youngsters, move with the times in terms of strategies and if we then fail, then fair enough blame the youngsters. Right now he is failing and the reasons are obvious. You extract delight in seeing the youngsters discarded but fail to recognise the fact that its the old men that are letting us down. Talk about short sighted and typicallly SA'n - oh so conservative. Select them old for experience sake and get them to skop the leather off the ball or stick the head down and charge into the opposition. Why play with youthful dynamic players who look to beat the man with pace and skill?

If you can't see the Boks are the worse for losing their most experienced players, I can't help you Dave. You are a bit of a boring broken record....applying the same solution to every problem. Lost I'd say, totally lost.

The difficult task of building a team, or a National team for this instance, is having the perfect blend of Experience, rugged players, mixed with young inexperienced, skilled, and dynamic players.  You can't just pick all of one.

I agree with both of your points. The team obviously lacked experience in that Aussie game, but it also lacked a dynamic, explosive player to break the line and create a final try.

That's just the way I see it.

Moz, if Goosen wasn't injured earlier, would you have had him starting against Argentina with Morne on the bench??

Can I would be introducing Goosen as fast as suits his development. NZ never rushed Carter.....and I certainly wouldn't start Goosen in an away NZ  test as his first start. That said he and Etzebeth are ready.

Jean was chased down along the touchline by Matt Dunning in 2004, on the away leg to Australia. JJ might be able to forge a career yet, best bet would be to move to the Sharks though, get a nice new haircut and start doing some modeling on the side, that way the media will afford him a complete blanketing of his inadequacies.

I saw nothing from Goosen either that would suggest he could compensate for our real shortcomings. It's all smoke and mirrors, cloaks and daggers in backwards SA. Blame it all on Morne, but when he isn't there, and the truth surfaces, at least don't forge another worthless lie like the pro-Lambie morons of last year.
 

One thing is for sure, JJ Engelbregt could not be any worse than has-been Jean de Villiers!

I think Frans Steyns boot is wasted at inside centre so we need 2 move F Steyn to fullback & put in a brand new centre pair. Id pick Lambie & Paul Jordaan as my combo (asuming Goosen at flyhalf) and if Goosen is injured (which seems to be likely) then move Lambie to flyhalf with either JP du Plessis or Francois venter taking his place or else Jordaan @ inside and JJ Englebregt @ outside.

Morne and Frans are a good combination that need more ball, and they need the forwards to provide clean ball. Practically all our posession is static, poorly protected and poorly presented. It's one hell of a mess, and the backs are not going to be able to do anything constructive on the back foot. That's where the problem befins and ends. Besides, Lambie is a terrible test player full stop, a total failure at flyhalf. Frans never was a quality fullback, he even said so himself, his best position is 12 and that's where he feels most comfortable.

 Mvovo has probably been the biggest dissapointment under Meyer. He looks good for the Sharks in the Super15, but has totally woeful in Perth last week. 

Maybe a bit harsh to say that he lost the Springboks the game. However he messed up the kick off to give away a try. Then he stuffed up an overlap to allow Adam Ashley Cooper to tackle both him and Jean in one tackle.....This is basic stuff. Draw your man and then pass. Not crap run into your team mate on the outside to close down the space. 

Mvovo has been exposed long ago, he was in fact terrible for the Sharks throughout the Super XV. He just runs along the touchline expecting to be put away for an easy belly-flop. His defence is woeful, the cracks first appeared there last year against the Rebels in the Shark's first game. He just doesn't add any value. Another passive and lazy player. It's just such a pity that the Shark's wasted Vulindlu, he was a very thoughtful player. Brains is what makes great players. Recall that improvised attack off a lineout for the Sharks? Wove through the defence and made a try from nothing. What has Mvovo done? Zilch.

The Cat

Looking at last Saturday's game again - Morne received enough good balls - but did excatly nothing beneficial with them.   Steyn got virtually no good balls all game long - mostly hospital passes from Morne.   The forwards did win an reasonable supply of possession (not always on the back foot)  - but nothing positive came from those balls

Our backline performancess arre atrocious and the issue relates mostly to the backline pivot - in this case Morne Steyn.

No Moz, it would appear that both you and Meyer need to catch a wake up. The youngsters have had nothing to do with our shocking performances as sadly they have never been selected but for Etzebeth and Coetzee. These two have been the standouts in the tests to date this year.

The issue as I keep telling you, is that we have far too much deadwood in the side. If it was down to you and Meyer, you would have more of that deadwood on board in du Preez, Matfield, Bakkies and Schalk. If Meyer had his way these hasbeens would also be in the Bok side right now.

But for our benefit we keep having to endure the likes of Kirchner, Habana, Jean, Morne and now Pienaar in the backs.............how bloody short sighted is it to conclude that these hasbeens are the answers to competing against Oz and NZ? Hell if that was not bad enough, we were made to struggle against the Argies.

And we ask ourseleves why? Well the answer is bloody obvious. None of these backs are anywhere near being the best in their respective positions and its a complete insult that Meyer would lead us to believe that they are. Kirchner is a handy player, but come on, Lambie is obviously a far better option. Habana had his day, but that was up seasons ago. Jean was a great 12 a good three seasons ago, but is now an embarrassment to what should constitue an international 13. He offers nothing at all on attack and his defence in the last test was pathetic. Morne Steyn is a sad excuse for a test 10 and should never have won a single Bok cap. Meyer's faith in this guy sums the man up - he lacks vision and is blinded by misplaced faith in average to poor players, players that did their thing some years back. Its so bloody obvious and smacks of basic ignorance that the man does not know better. The fool has done our best back a disservice by wasting him on the wing, much like he did to players like JJ and Jantjies, who were dropped after getting no or very little opportunity to shine. Dropping a player from a squad without him having played a single game is disgusting and will go a long way to undermining any respect he might have gained from the players prior to his appointment......much like his treatment of Bekker after one less than impressive game, where every Bok on the park that day was in the same boat.

How on earth you conclude that the Boks are worse for losing their experienced players is beyond me. Under PDV with all these experienced players the cracks were showing. Meyer had the opportunity to wipe the slate clean and bring in the new. He had enough experience in JP, Frans, Hougaard, Pienaar, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Jannie, Bekker, Alberts and Brussouw to draw on and form the core. The man has lost my respect already, I expected so much more. But its apparent that he has not coached at a high level for some time and that he is of the misguided opinion that the Bulls model is the way to win test matches.

Why on earth would a new coach, having just witnessed 3 of the SA sides end up in the top 5 of the S15, select hasbeens like Kirchner, Aplon, Habana, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, Alberts and Spies or neverbeens like de Jongh, Cilliers, Liebenberg, J.Kruger and Potgieter..........how the hell do you conclude that these guys are the best we have to offer?

Moz the issue is the old players. Selecting players for experience sake is costing the Boks in a big way and will continue to do so. Things will only change if Meyer wakes up to this fact. While he continues to select Kirchner at 15, Habana at 11, Jean at 13, Morne at 10, Hougaard on the wing, de Jongh on the bench, Cilliers as a bench prop, Liebenberg as a bench hooker, Kruger at lock and Alberts at 7......we will continue to lose.

@moz,

not true about carter being rushed, or at least the All Blacks didnt hold back with his devlopment as he played 8 test matches from a possible 14 and only because it was a RWC year (2003) were others picked ahead of him during because of the established combinations and what have u.
in 2004 carter played most of his games at inside center and established himself as an All Blacks incumbent before being put into flyhalf on the EOYT, where he eventually fulfilled his destiny as the greatest flyhalf ever.
 

my point is, if goosen can handle the jandal, he should be picked post haste, cos the morne experience is only holding the Boks back.
i wouldnt have rushed him as early as meyer did, but only because he was returning back from an injury. the limited time that goosen played in his debut test loss against the wallabies was impressive though and one needs to ask what could he have done had he been given more game time.
 

Let me give you a better analogy Sasu. When Dagg was beginning to challenge Mils....NZ didn't immediately switch to the new. Mils remained the number one choice until Dagg literally knocked the door down. That was the way things should be.....the new guy proves his credentials. He doesn't just win a beauty contest.

Can we all just agree that this coach has ALREADY failed to show any ability to pick a competitive team, either now or in the future. Our best players gather splinters on the bench, while he gives the old boyz and Bulls regulars a run. I'm for wholesale changes, starting with the coach!

@moz,

that makes sense and yes i would agree 100%, but in NZs case, mills had a lot going of him to keep dagg at bay as long as he did, morne on the other hand has been lucky not to be replaced by goosen, but thats something that i think will change when Boks are in their own backyard.

all the best to goosen though, wether he makes the starting line up this year or not, we can all agree its only a matter of time before the Boks finally have quality flyhalf, instead of the bafana bafana recruits they have been playing with.