Leviticus 18:22 states quite clearly that homosexuality is wrong. Leviticus 25:44 says it is fine to possess slaves as long as they a from another country. Why do Christians adhere so to Leviticus 18:22, but then condemn Leviticus 25:44 just a few verses later? Or is it okay to keep slaves....oh, and put to death anyone working on the Sabbath, Leviticus 25:44?
Bible vs Homosecksuality
When it's quite obvious that their god was a conceited and bloodthirsty murderer . . . like when he had the poor man stoned to death because he dared to pick some sticks to make a fire for his freezing family but, unfortunately for him, he did it on the day god had chosen for his own worship . . . or when he commits genocide by smiting entire peoples and tribes . . . or when he quite clearly condones slavery as discussed at some length recently . . . then they'll tell you that you're taking the bible too literally or else you don't understand it.
But then at other times they'll adopt a hardline stance (as Baboon-ou has done on several occasions) against something as relatively harmless as homosexuality because it's stated somewhere in the bible, or they'll quote the bible to show that non-christians cannot get to heaven even if they're devout and virtuous adherents of some other religion. There's no talk of taking things too literally when these bible bashers want to point fingers at people or groups they don't like.
I wonder how many of these christian hypocrites have any idea how many times the Catholics have edited or abridged the bible over the years, or how many things have been added or removed from the bible depending on what the pope at the time wanted people to believe or how he wanted them to behave?
Here's whats interesting
The bible has deliberately been edited to change people's perceptions of what was written at the time... that is a fact.
When questioned on one issue with Abraham, Beeno says "That was just a temporary teaching at the time, which is no longer used"
Yeah...ok
Then, I am still waiting for Beeno to advise why people who work on the Sabbath are not killed, as specifically stipulated by the Bible.
Beeno?
I have not really been taking part in the discussions over the past few weeks and I do not intend to get involved now either but it has been interesting to see the all-out attack. There has been the arguments and, almost, demands for Christians to explain who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Why would non-believers be so concerned about it? Surely, if you do not believe then that would also mean that in your book there is no heaven or hell.
Now the issue of slavery is coming up again. Why is the question only asked to Christians. Those are laws from the Old Testament and Christians are not the only ones who "believe in" the laws of the Old Testament. In addition, the coming of the Messiah (Jesus) has negated many of the laws of the Old Testament in a way..... at least in the manner that they are practised.
If all the laws of the Old Testament are to be applied to the letter, then all males shoul still be circumcised, church ministers should still be sacrificing animals during sermons, etc.
As ever, Ceradunce is not adding anything to the debate, but rather lecturing people in his typically overbearing manner as to what they should or shouldn't be discussing. Sounds like this tedious and sanctimonious old windbag should get back to Kamp SS where everything is moderated and censored.
I once asked why he decided to become g a y. His reply was not what I expected, but it made perfect sense. He said he was always g a y, which, thinking back now, is blindingly obvious. He went on to say the following, and this is the bit that really convinced me. "Why would I choose to be g a y? Coming out will only make my life difficult. From this day onwards, I will be judged and prejudiced. People will hate me and want to beat me up. Why on earth would I chose that? For me it is not choice, because if it was, I would certainly not choose to be g a y, but I am g a y, and fighting it all these years has made me so unhappy."
This person came out 10 years ago, and has been a very happy person ever since. Now I agree that some people become g a y due to abuse and bad parenting, but some really are just born that way.
Jesus said the only way into heaven was through him. Therefore a Muslim child, having never heard of Christianity, that dies, goes straight to hell. That means God created a child that had no chance of going to heaven. Can't you see the contradiction??
I have no problem with additional views, religions or questions
With Beeno and CC, they just get insulting, that's what I don't tolerate, and vice versa, it just takes a bi t of tolerance on both sides because not one single poster can conclusively prove the other is incorrect
I have expalined a number of times the nature of this slavery. Those days people would even sell themsleves inot slavery so they would be looked after. In the year of Jubille - every years - they were to be freed. Those who didnt want to go free could sta with the masters and many did.Your ranting rooitwit is ver y bad stuff. I fear you are becoming or have become a serious God hater like Christopher Hitchkins, and Dawkins. Have you reached the point of no return. I sincerely hope not.
The textual veracity of the Bible is overwhelming. Read Evodence that demands a verdict by Josh McDowell. Here he quotes the top scholars in the world and their conclusions. Also read about the light the Dead Sea scrolls throw on the matter.
Rooitwit I can see you are terribly interested in the reliabilty of the scriptures so here is alittle reading for you. You comments show such a degree of ignorance the mind boggles. Are you purely a propgandsit or one interested in pusuing truth? I can of course give similar evidence for the accuracy of the old testament. But start here rooitwit and satify your earnest longisn to know the actual facts and not figmenst of your fertile imagination. (Beeno as usual providing the evidence and the atheists the rants. Sigh!)https://www.jashow.org/wiki/index.php/The_Textual_Reliability_of_the_New_Testament
The Bible always has been and always will be the most important, influential and essential book in the world because it is literally God’s own word to us. This is demonstrated by its many unique characteristics such as specifically fulfilled predictive prophecies given 400-1500 years in advance. These constitute often-detailed predictions of the future that only God could provide, as established by the facts of history (such as the accurate dating of individual biblical books and the literal fulfillment of the prophecies), plus the impartial use of probability theory.
The only thing more important than God’s word is God. In the Old Testament God Himself spoke openly and directly to his servant Moses on the mountaintop for 40 days, and in the Tabernacle at the place of atonement (Ex. 24:18; 34:28; Deut. 10:10; Num. 7:89). Imagine having God Himself speak directly to us. Yet this is just what God has done in His word, the Bible. Because of its unique authority, we neglect it to our loss. To be sure, there is probably no folly greater than to take the word of God lightly, yet millions do so.
Author and Christian apologist Dan Story once commented that, “All Christian truth-claims ultimately rest with the reliability of the Bible.” In other words, we can hardly argue that the history and teachings recorded by the Bible are accurate unless it is first established that the text itself has been recorded accurately over the centuries. Because everything related to the truth of the Christian religion is directly related to biblical authority, it is critical to definitively establish biblical textual accuracy. This is especially so given large number of regular attacks against biblical authority (and textual accuracy) by an increasing number of skeptics, including atheists, liberal theologians, humanists, Muslims and others.
To be sure, notwithstanding the critical importance of the Old Testament, it is in the New Testament in particular that we find what is most vital to us. This includes the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ; the truth that salvation is not something earned by our good works or personal merit, but is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone; Jesus’ atoning death for our sin on the cross of Calvary; and His bodily resurrection from the dead. This latter event is something that constitutes tangible proof of Jesus’ personal claims to be Messiah, Savior and God incarnate.
Together these facts of history prove the possibility of our inheriting eternal life as a free gift through God’s grace, if we will but trust Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior for forgiveness of sins and eternal life (John 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 1 John 5:13). That’s why the textual reliability and authority of the New Testament is one of the most important subjects for every person on earth.
Although New Testament reliability is sufficiently well established that it would stand cross-examination in a modern law court (as would Christ’s bodily resurrection from the dead), our concern here is with specifically documenting the dependability of the New Testament through its textual transmission. Given the established credibility of the New Testament writers as e.g., eyewitnesses of the events recorded, through archaeology and other means, this would prove that what the New Testament records Jesus as saying and doing He really said and did. This simple fact gives us only two ultimate options concerning the Person of Jesus Christ: God incarnate or utterly mad. And virtually no one believes Jesus was utterly mad.
Manuscripts Numbers and Transmission: Unique in the World?
Despite being almost 2,000 years old (written ca. 45-90 A.D.), with thousands of Greek manuscripts and other translations in existence, the text of the New Testament today remains essentially unchanged. As of 2014, there are 5,840 Greek manuscripts and portions. In addition, the New Testament was copied in different languages (Latin, Ethiopian, Slavic, Armenian, Syriac, etc.) and these copies total over 19,000 additional manuscripts. In other words, today, in total, we have over 25,000 complete or partial New Testament manuscripts.
Given the uniquely large number of manuscripts, the relatively short length of time involved in many cases from composition to manuscript, and the ravages of history, this is something unparalleled – true for no other ancient book in the world, religious or secular.
Religious
To illustrate, this is particularly true for the Scriptures of other world religions such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism. In contrast with the Bible, their sacred Scriptures cannot be considered textually trustworthy. The manuscript evidence is too sparse, too far from the original, and/or too contradictory to retain reliability or authority. As a result, contrary to the apologetic arguments given for the truth of these religions, they do not possess an alleged divine revelation that is established as both historically/textually accurate and objectively knowable. In essence they lack an authoritative teaching, because it is impossible to determine what the teachings of the original purported revelation were in the first place.
Secular
Comparable ancient secular manuscripts, with the exception of the Iliad, generally total in the single digits to scores, occasionally hundreds. One of the nation’s top experts on New Testament manuscripts is Dr. Daniel Wallace. As noted by our introductory citation, he has illustrated the gap between the New Testament manuscripts and other ancient secular manuscripts by noting that “If you placed the manuscript copies of the average ancient author it would form a pile four feet high. However, the NT manuscripts and translations would reach a mile high! In other words, numerically, the manuscript attestation for the New Testament is over a thousand times greater compared to the average ancient author.
Since historians and classical scholars do not doubt the essential authenticity of ancient secular authors based on a mere handful of manuscripts (sometimes only one), how could they possibly doubt the authenticity of the New Testament with 24,000 manuscripts that reach a mile high? It’s not reasonably possible. In addition it is the very largess of the manuscript evidence that provides the authoritative means for ascertaining the original. As Drs. Geisler and Nix conclude, “… the abundance of manuscript copies makes it possible to reconstruct the original with virtually complete accuracy.”(PLEASE NOTE ROOITWIT)
The Time Gap
Further, the time gap between the originals and the surviving manuscripts for the ancient classical works is generally at least 700 years. But this often extends into the Middle Ages or late Middle Ages, even 1,000 years to as much as 1,500 years or more after the originals were first written, as for Plato, Aristotle and others.
In stark contrast, with the New Testament manuscripts, the time gap is greatly condensed. The earliest complete New Testaments – e.g., Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus (the latter containing half the Old Testament) are dated 325-350 A.D., about 250 years after the originals. Codex Alexandrinus is dated about 50 years later. The Chester Beatty and Bodmer Papyri include most of the New Testament, dating only some 100-175 years after the New Testament. The earliest fragment of the New Testament dates from 115-38 A.D. or earlier (i.e., the John Rylands Papyri) while others date from A.D. 250-200 or earlier. These numbers close in on the time gap of several decades after the originals were first penned. All this is historical, textual proof of the manuscript uniqueness of the New Testament.
In fact, it’s at least possible we may have some manuscripts or portions from the first century itself. Although modern scholarship generally believes no first century manuscript or portion has yet been found, there are valid reasons to at least question the absolute nature of this conclusion. The fact that textual critics and their discipline have various presuppositions (ranging from liberal to conservative), methodologies and controversies, just like biblical critics generally, or that manuscript dating has its own unique set of problems, indicates scholarly consensus may not always be correct (even as in the discipline of science today with its generally accepted but impossible theory of evolution.) And regardless, it’s just possible that reliable evidence of a first century manuscript will be published in the next few months.
The Testimony of the Fathers
But there is another important point. Dr. Wallace estimates there are about one million additional New Testament citations in all the Church Fathers (some 43% of them before 250 A.D.). Despite their use of some loose translations, the New Testament could essentially be reconstructed from these alone. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger (d. 2007) was a world-class authority on biblical textual criticism and author of the first three editions of The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration (Oxford). He observes, “Indeed, so extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament.” This conclusion is shared by other scholars.
Stability of the Text
The massive New Testament textual tradition has a unique feature (one of many), i.e., the New Testament readings and text types tend not to change over time but exhibit an unexpectedly high degree of stubbornness and tenacity. This argues strongly for both the transmission accuracy and the stability of the text overall, something I personally believe was divinely superintended, just as for the Old Testament manuscript tradition. In other words, as New Testament manuscripts were copied by the thousands and sent throughout the world, the fact of their resulting stability indicates extreme care in copying and helps us get as close to the originals as possible.
As noted elsewhere, Kurt and Barbara Aland are among the world’s leading authorities in textual criticism, although they come from the old German school infected with the destructive skepticism of higher biblical criticism. The central purpose of their German Institute for New Testament Textual Research (INTF) is “[T]o research the textual history of the New Testament and to reconstruct its Greek initial text on the basis of the entire manuscript tradition [and] the early translations and patristic citations.” In other words, they are not just looking at the 5,840 Greek manuscripts, but most of the 19,000 translations and perhaps up to one million citations of the church fathers as well. Their Novum Testamentum Graecum Editio Critica Maior constitutes a massive 70-year project that is well on its way, having begun in 1958. Still, the project will not be complete until as late as 2030. In 2007 it came under the leadership of the State Academy. The North Rhine-Westphalian Academy of Sciences and Arts, an association of leading researchers, accepted the massive undertaking as one of its 20 major scientific projects, reporting proudly that: “For the first time in the history of science [it has been made] possible that all of the available manuscript material as well as a very large number of handwritten citations [of e.g. early] Christian writers and the old translations of the texts, especially in Latin, Coptic and Syriac [could be used] and evaluate[d] in the reconstruction of the original text.”
The fact that the Alands were selected for major involvement in this unparalleled project is an indication of both their textual expertise and the high regard in which they are held in New Testament textual studies.
In their vast studies of the manuscripts they point out “one of the characteristics of the New Testament textual tradition is tenacity, i.e., the stubborn resistance of readings and text types to change…. This is what makes it possible to retrace the original text of the New Testament through a broad range of witnesses.” And, “The transmission of the New Testament textual tradition is characterized by an extremely impressive degree of tenacity. Once the reading occurs it will persist with obstinancy…. It is precisely the overwhelming mass of the New Testament textual tradition which provides an assurance of certainty in establishing the original text.”
Dr. Daniel B. Wallace makes a similar point specifically with the papyri:
As with all the previously published New Testament papyri (127 of them, published in the last 116 years), not a single new reading has commended itself as authentic. Instead, the papyri function to confirm what New Testament scholars have already thought was the original wording or, in some cases, to confirm an alternate reading—but one that is already found in the manuscripts.... In other words, the papyri have confirmed various readings as authentic in the past 116 years, but have not introduced new authentic readings. The original New Testament text is found somewhere in the manuscripts that have been known for quite some time. These new papyri will no doubt continue that trend.
This tenacity and stability of the papyri relative to the original text is also acknowledged in a recent mainline scholarly text published by Oxford University:
Over two decades ago [biblical literature expert Eldon Jay] Epp noted that the early papyri “contribute virtually no new substantial variants” to the collection of variants already known from the later tradition. Even with the discovery of many more papyri the situation has not changed. Thus, it is not uncommon for experts to observe that, in spite of the mounting evidence from the early period, the critical editions of the NT have changed relatively little since the work of Wescott and Hort (in the 1800s).
Another point bears mentioning. The two primary editions of the Greek New Testament are the Nestle-Aland and the United Bible Society. They are widely used in American colleges, universities, Bible schools and seminaries and also by biblical and Greek scholars of liberal to conservative persuasion. Such widespread usage in itself would seem to tell us something: apart from scholars whose rationalistic or other bias requires a different conclusion that is not based upon a fair reading of the manuscript evidence, the essential validity of the Greek New Testament text seems to be generally conceded by the prevalent use of these standard critical editions of the Greek text.
Examples
Estimates of New Testament textual accuracy may vary slightly based on certain factors. However there seems to be a consensus among many conservative scholars as to the high degree of accuracy enjoyed by the New Testament when it comes to textual reliability.
Noted Christian apologist and philosopher Dr. Norman Geisler summarizes some of the statements given over the years by important New Testament textual researchers: “… Greek expert Ezra Abbott said about 19/20 (95 percent) of the readings are “various” rather than “rival” readings, and about 19/20 (95 percent) of the rest make no appreciable difference in the sense of the passage. Thus the text is 99.75 percent accurate.(YOU STILL READING ROOITWIT) Noted NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson said the real concern is with about a “thousandth part of the entire text.” So, the reconstructed text of the New Testament is 99.9% free from real concern. Philip Schaff estimated that of the thousands of variations in all the manuscripts known in his day, only 50 were of real significance and of these not one affected ‘an article of faith.’”
Judaic scholar, archaeologist and linguist Dr. Randall Price concluded: “The New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% of the text, a greater percentage by far than for any other ancient literary work.” Further, “Recall that we have all of the variants that make up the Original Bible somewhere in our vast number of manuscripts, and that textual criticism has so far been able to bring our state of the text very close to the wording of the original…. By comparison with secular literature, we have in the Bible, hands down, the best and most complete text in all of human history. That cannot be by random chance!” Indeed.
Textual authorities Wescott and Hort observed that, “The amount of what can in any sense be called substantial variation, is but a small fraction of the whole residuary variation, and can hardly form more than a thousandth part of the entire text.” In other words, the text is 99.99% pure.
The late Bible scholar John Wenham believed the overall biblical text was 99.99 percent pure. Dr. Gary Habermas echoes Wenham in describing describes the text of the New Testament as “incredibly accurate…99.99 percent accurate….”
All this is why Dr. F.F. Bruce, former Rylands Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at the University of Manchester, asserted of the New Testament: “There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.” Professor Bruce further comments, “The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the [best] evidence for many writings of classical writers, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning. And if the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt.”
Further, Dr. Rene Pache (Doctorate of Law, Lausane University) remarks of the great Princeton scholar B.B. Warfield who held four doctorates in theology, that he “goes on to say that the great bulk of the New Testament has been transmitted to us without, or almost without, any variations. It can be asserted with confidence that the sacred text is exact and valid and that no article of faith and no moral precept in it has been distorted or lost.”
In essence, the evidence for the reliability of the New Testament text so compelling that many critical biblical scholars no longer bother to question it. To do so is to throw everything we know of ancient history and they’re not quite willing to do that.
For the most part it’s only those who are rationalistic skeptical theologians, atheists and other skeptics who continue to reject New Testament textual accuracy. Even liberal and critical New Testament scholar Bishop John A.T. Robinson concluded: “The wealth of manuscripts, and above all the narrow interval of time between the writing and the earliest extant copies, make it by far the best attested text of any ancient writing in the world.”
In sum, the manuscript evidence provides us with a unique 99%-plus original (autographic) New Testament.
No other document of the ancient period is as accurately preserved as the Bible.
Still, some people wonder why we don’t possess the actual original, divinely inspired manuscripts of the New Testament.
Good Reasons We Don’t Possess the Originals
There are good reasons (in fact, providential ones) that we do not retain the originally inspired New Testament documents. Here are a number of them relayed by Dr. Randall Price, to which I have made some additional comments.
First, we already possess 100% of the originals in the manuscripts – so, ultimately, how necessary would it be to process the inspired writings? (See below.)
Second, after 2,000 years, how could we be 100% certain the original wasn’t a copy?
Third, God is sovereign over all things, including manuscript transmission. The logical conclusion is that God determined that preserving the originals was not necessary and that it was not His will to do so.
Fourth, if we had the originals, there would be much less labor over the Scriptures – to our detriment (e.g., textual criticism impacts not only the text but hermeneutics and exegesis as well).
Fifth, given human nature, the originals could easily have become venerated or even worshiped, an end in themselves. To illustrate, consider the Isaiah Dead Sea Scroll in Jerusalem. Important as it is, it’s still a copy of the original divinely inspired manuscript of Isaiah. Yet it is kept from public view under 24-hour armed guard (a copy of the copy is put on public display). Or, consider the Sabbath day in rabbinic Judaism. The Sabbath was created to bless men but it had become their curse, enslaving them, even being interpreted as a bride and queen. By the time of Jesus, the Sabbath rest had become, in the words of Edersheim, “an unbearable burden, by endless injunctions of what constituted work and of that which was supposed to produce joy, thereby utterly changing its sacred character.” Appendix 17 of Edersheim’s classic work, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah goes into the truly appalling details. One cannot help wonder if the original manuscripts would have become an end in themselves, e.g., with millions of yearly visitors attending to the manuscripts but not their meaning.
Sixth, the originals would neither reduce the differences in interpretation of the Bible among Christians, nor increase our faith. Interpretive differences rarely have to do with textual criticism, but instead with matters of tradition, denominations, interpretation or skepticism (i.e., higher critical influences). Also, consider that throughout the majority of Christian history, no one had actually ever possessed a New Testament except church authorities; its teachings were only known through the church pastors or priests who had manuscript copies. It wasn’t until the invention of the printing press in the 16th century that Bibles could begin to be made in large numbers. Regardless, look at the growth of the Church throughout 20 centuries – God’s plan for the Church has succeeded, even though most Christians never had a Bible.
Seventh, throughout the vast majority of Church history (as it was in Old Testament times), copies of the inspired Scriptures would have been required anyway if the word of God was to go into other nations and cultures. And, at least until there were sufficient printing presses, these copies would have had variations among them.
Eighth, copies would also have been required because even the original divinely inspired manuscripts would have increasingly decayed and been destroyed over time.
Ninth, as Jewish history shows, the copies were regarded as being the same as the originals because they were so carefully replicated and preserved. In the same way, Christians can regard their Bible as the same as the original.
Tenth, the copies might actually have been easier to read than the originals.
Eleventh, even the originals would never have prevented the need for hundreds and hundreds of different translations into other languages or the inherent difficulties that result from the translation process. Due to the Tower of Babel confusion of languages, the fact that no translated copy can ever exactly reproduce the accuracy of the original must be considered the will of God.
Not a Word Lost?
Given the extremely large number of manuscripts and the care of transmission, the odds that even a single word of the original has been lost are enormously improbable, although obviously this can’t be absolutely proved textually since we don’t have the originals. What about all the variations among the manuscripts?
It should be mentioned that the total number of variations among the manuscripts is quite large, a fact typically emphasized by critics, something like 300,000-400,000. The vast majority of these deal with minor misspellings and common errors easily correctable through textual analysis and so they affect nothing. Even the small numbers of what can be termed significant variants are not important for any matter of Christian doctrine or practice. Besides, these numbers are hardly surprising given the number of manuscripts and centuries involved. For example, if there were 20 variations in each of the 5,800 Greek New Testament manuscripts we now possess it would be almost 120,000 variants.
The bottom line is that nothing of the originally inspired New Testament text is missing from our manuscript evidence because the extremely small minority of uncertain readings still remains among the textual variations. In other words, absent the original writings, but given the very large number of manuscripts the original is still somewhere to be found in the variants which can be accessed in a good critical edition of the New Testament. In his book on New Testament textual criticism, David Alan Black concludes “The sheer number of witnesses to the text of the New Testament makes it virtually certain that the original text has been preserved somewhere among the extant (existing) witnesses.” J. K. Elliott and Ian Moir write in their book on New Testament manuscripts that, “recent scholarly attempts to edit the New Testament text is done with the confidence that the original text is there to be discovered in the manuscripts.”
Again, none of the variations affect any Christian doctrine or practice. Why? Because in the miniscule number of cases where they may impinge upon them, the doctrine stands supported by the weight of other New Testament passages. Thus, it is a fact that the manuscript variations never deny or overturn a Christian doctrine or practice.
One of the leading New Testament textual scholars in America, Dr. Daniel Wallace observes, “Ninety-nine percent of the variants make virtually no difference at all…” Or, as two other noted biblical scholars observe: “Although these ‘unresolved’ variants are quite rare, they are the only legitimate places where the New Testament text is genuinely in question…” Regardless, “All the teaching of the New Testament… [is] left unaffected by the remaining unresolved textual variations.… It [the manuscript tradition] is so very close to the originals that there is no material difference between what, say, Paul or John wrote and what we possess today.”
Renowned textual critic Dr. Bruce M. Metzger of Princeton Theological Seminary, one of the most influential New Testament scholars of the 20th century, observed the following in an interview with former atheist Chicago Tribune legal editor turned Christian apologist Lee Strobel: “The more significant variations do not overthrow any doctrine of the church. Any good Bible will have notes that will alert the reader to variant readings of any consequence. But again, these are rare.” “Then Strobel started to ask, again, if scholarship has diluted Metzger’s faith. He jumped in before I [Strobel] could finish my sentence. ‘On the contrary,’ [Metzger] stressed, ‘it has built it. I’ve asked questions all my life uNLIKE SOME LEMMINGS WE HAVE HERE!!!). I’ve dug into the text, I’ve studied this thoroughly, and today I know with confidence that my trust in Jesus has been well placed.’... Then he added, for emphasis, ‘Very well placed.’”
To demonstrate further, of the 138,020 words in the New Testament, only 400 words are in some degree of doubt – that’s about 1 word in 1,000 words. In such cases, textual critics continue to work hard to ascertain the original. Put another way, of 20,000 lines of the New Testament, only 40 are in doubt. To argue that these few remaining differences in our textual tradition have any relevance at all is like arguing Noah never needed the ark for the worldwide Flood.
The secular and religious critics who claim the New Testament is unreliable because the text has been corrupted have, regrettably, either been misinformed or have allowed unjustified or hostile assumptions to color their interpretations of the data (whether of materialism, humanism, rationalism, anti-supernaturalism, etc.). It is they who should not be trusted rather than the Bible. For example, the highly influential and hyper-skeptical New Testament textual critic Bart Ehrman wrote The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, a scholarly work that he utilized for his very popular if highly misleading Misquoting Jesus.Critical treatments of his work show that his conclusions are without foundation.
Conclusion
It is perhaps fitting to conclude this article with the words of Sir Frederic Kenyon G.B.E., K.C.B., D.Litt., LL.D., F.B.A., F.S.A. First, a little bit about Dr. Kenyon: He was a well-known paleographer and biblical and classical scholar who studied the Bible his entire life. Even after retirement he continued to analyze and publish ancient papyri. A Fellow at Oxford University, he was Director and Principal Librarian of the British Museum, where he was also Assistant in the Department of Manuscripts. He was the President of four scholarly societies: the British Academy, the Hellenic Society, the British School of Archaeology in Jerusalem and the Victoria Institute. He published three books on biblical textual criticism; four others on the Bible, including one on biblical archaeology; two on Greek paleography, plus many others indicative of his depth of learning, including books on the British Academy, literary criticism, classical texts from papyri in the British Museum, Aristotle on the Athenian Constitution, the life and letters of Robert Browning, education, the Codex Alexandrinus, and the Chester Beatty biblical papyri.
At the Jubilee Dinner of the Society for Old Testament Study in January 1950, he exhorted members “with no little moral fervor to do all in their power to restore a reasonable and intelligent faith in the trustworthiness of the Holy Scripture by making the reassuring results of modern biblical study as widely known as possible.” One hundred and twenty years ago he well summarized the situation, a conclusion even better supported, if possible, today: “The number of manuscripts of the New Testament, of early translations from it, and of quotations from it in the oldest writers of the Church, is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or another of these ancient authorities. This can be said of no other ancient book in the world.” As a result: “[The uncertain] passages are an infinitesimal portion of the whole and may be disregarded. The Christian can take the whole Bible in his hand and say without fear or hesitation that he holds in it the true word of God, faithfully handed down from generation to generation throughout the centuries.”
In other words, we can trust every word of the New Testament – and this is precisely what we should do. We should do this first and foremost because it is the word of God. But if not for this reason, then for no other reason than that the textual, archaeological, prophetic, legal and other historical data requires it.
Incidentally, the same should be true for the Old Testament. (For documentation of the textual, archaeological and other reliability of the Old Testament – of which there are about 3,000 Masoretic text manuscripts and 200 Dead Sea scroll manuscripts, among others – see the authoritative works by the following distinguished scholars: Kenneth A. Kitchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament; Walter C. Kaiser Jr., The Old Testament Documents: Are They Reliable & Relevant?; Gleason Archer, A Survey of Old Testament Introduction and Robert Dick Wilson, A Scientific Investigation of the Old Testament
I wonder if ou rooitwit is like ab ass who if he reads anything opposite to what he belie ves stop dead in his tracks.
"...because not one single poster can conclusively prove the other is incorrect"
Ons weet niks.
This covenant was a very serious matter as far as the well being of Israel was concerned. When Israel turned way from God ways, God allowed their enemies to overcome them ( He removed His protective hedge). hence the babylonian captivity etc. You only have to look at the good and bad kings of Isarel etc to see how thsi worked and how prophets warned them of them of the consequences.Finally when they were adjudged to have boken convenant and jrejected messiah they were scattered throughout the worlkd according to prophecies given by Moses. The sword woud follow the and when itwas day they would wish it was night and vice versa. They were ravaged by the enenmy but not destroyed for God said he would net permanently forsake them but would finally bring the back to the promised land which he has doen in recent times. A sign we are twoward the end.From what I post below you will understand that the keeping of the Sabbath was a core feature of teh covenant. The breaking of the covenat was an extremly serious matter.Is is very basic that you understand DA that the New Covenant is different to the first convenant. Here we are dealing with salvation offered to the world.
Every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.—This is a new enactment, and must be regarded in conjunction with the new dignity attached to Sabbath observance by its having become the special covenant sign between God and His people. The Sabbath-breaker now threw himself out of covenant with God, and not only so, but did what in him lay to throw the whole people out of covenant. His guilt was therefore great, and the assignment to it of the death-penalty is in no way surprising; rather, it is in accordance with the general spirit of the code (seeExodus 21:16-17; Exodus 21:29; Exodus 22:18-20, &c.). When the occasion arose, there was no hesitation in carrying the law out (Numbers 15:32-35).
Cut off.—Or, separated, set apart from. His act at once cast him out from the number of God’s people, made him an outlaw, ipso facto excommunicated him.
Benson CommentaryExodus 31:14-16. It is holy unto you — That is, it is designed for your benefit as well as for God’s honour; it shall be accounted holy by you. It is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord — It is separated from common use to the service of God; and by the observance of it we are taught to rest from worldly pursuits, and devote ourselves, and all we are, have, and can do, to God’s glory. It was to be observed throughout their generations, in every age, for a perpetual covenant — This was to be one of the most lasting tokens of the covenant between God and Israel.Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary31:12-17 Orders were now given that a tabernacle should be set up for the service of God. But they must not think that the nature of the work, and the haste that was required, would justify them in working at it on sabbath days. The Hebrew word /shabath/ signifies rest, or ceasing from labour. The thing signified by the sabbath is that rest in glory which remains for the people of God; therefore the moral obligation of the sabbath must continue, till time is swallowed up in eternity.Barnes' Notes on the BibleSee Numbers 15:32-36. The distinction between the meaning of the two expressions, "to be cut off from the people", and "to be put to death", is here indicated. He who was cut off from the people had, by his offence, put himself out of the terms of the covenant, and was an outlaw. On such, and on such alone, when the offence was one which affected the well-being of the nation, as it was in this case, death could be inflicted by the public authority.Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary12-17. Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep—The reason for the fresh inculcation of the fourth commandment at this particular period was, that the great ardor and eagerness, with which all classes betook themselves to the construction of the tabernacle, exposed them to the temptation of encroaching on the sanctity of the appointed day of rest. They might suppose that the erection of the tabernacle was a sacred work, and that it would be a high merit, an acceptable tribute, to prosecute the undertaking without the interruption of a day's repose; and therefore the caution here given, at the commencement of the undertaking, was a seasonable admonition.Matthew Poole's CommentaryShall surely be put to death; of which see an example, Numbers 15:32, &c. i.e. Servile work, as it is explained. Leviticus 23:7, &c.Gill's Exposition of the Entire BibleYe shall keep the sabbath therefore,.... Strictly observe it, according to the rules given concerning it:for it is holy unto you; a day that was set apart of God for holy exercises, peculiarly on their account:
everyone that defileth it; by doing any servile work upon it, or not observing it in a religious way:
shall surely be put to death; by the hand of the civil magistrate; if the law of the Jewish sabbath is now in force, the sanction continues, and the violation of it ought to be punished by a judge with death:
for whosoever doeth any work therein; so much as to kindle a fire, and dress any food, by boiling or roasting, or any other way:
that soul shall be cut off from among his people; that is, shall die by the hand of the civil magistrate, it being but another phrase for being put to death; though the Jewish writers, particularly Jarchi, understand the former phrase, "put to death", as to be done by a civil magistrate, when there are witnesses and full proof of the case; but this of "cutting off" by the hand of God, by immediate punishment from heaven, when it was done secretly, and there was no proof to be made of it.
Geneva Study BibleYe shall keep the {g} sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.(g) God repeats this point because the whole keeping of the law stands in the true use of the sabbath, which is to stop working and so obey the will of God.
DA these things are not the biggest issue you face. What is at stake is your eternal destiny.
Neither can evolutionists explain DNA or the simplest cell or the fine tuning or the Cambrian explosion etc etc etc. They are all screaming design. darwinism is dead its being descibed as the hoax of the 21st century!!The problem is not with the evidence but with a refusal to acknowledge that God exists regardless of the evidence. This position in terms of science gets sillier by the year. The more science discivers the more absurd it gets.
Try to understand that no-one is interested in debating these subjects with you any longer and everyone is sick and tired of your childishness and your rank stupidity.
Feel free to follow the adults as they discuss these issues but don't interfere and stop copying and pasting the laughable junk that you find at places like answersingenesis.org and conservapedia.com because no-one cares what these crackpot websites of yours have to say about anything.
You need to get used to the idea that you've just become a white noise that everyone now ignores.
Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear but you did bring it all upon yourself. Now keep your silly little trap shut while the big people have a discussion. Okay?
It has negative effecst on health and menta lwell being and of course spiritually. Some more brief reading for rooitwit. I am not going to underline for you rooitwit. I once read through this stuff and its so disgusting I would rasther not do so again.Hom se x is a death sentence. Also check out life expectancies. As always the atheists are getting it hopelessly wrong. They are amazingly consistent.
Beeno
I'm not looking to debate with you or anyone else, neither am I about to deny you or anyone else the right to believe the things they do, and I am never going to express my beliefs on a rugby message board.
I hope you understand.
Over and out.
Wrong bluebook, no one becomes gay due to abuse or upbringing......every gay person is born gay.
It is highly offensive that low life's like Beenkop try tell us that his beloved God frowns upon gay people......that in itself clearly evidences how pathetically out of touch bible bashers are with reality and how pathetically insulting they are.
Bunch of homophobic wankers. Beenkop you disgust me, you ignorant fool
And in today's news
Apparently this is the "new" way to bring children to the lord
I am not sure about how L-esbians who are feminine (non butch) though- (Maybe they are just bi-sex-ua l).
To me it is most important to make things as simple as possible because I am sure that that is the message that God intended to get through. If one have a look at the Ten Commandments, most of it is actually quite common sense. In fact, I do not see anything controversial in it. There are only three Commanments that could be an issue for non-believers, i.e.
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The rest are actually plain common sense:
You shall not make idols.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.
Those are the laws of God and non of them address homosexuality or slavery.
The problem is that people, believers and non-believers, quite often seem to miss the simple message in the Bible, i.e. love, respect and honour towards God and love, respect and honour towards those around you. In addition, we are not to stuff up the Creation, i.e. Earth (and other planets for that matter) and everything living on it. That is it. Simple.
Trust Rooinek to come out all guns blazing, as usual. Look mate, I do not care if you believe or if you don't believe or if you like what I posted or not. I am no "Bible basher" and I do not preach on every corner and I certainly do not have any intention, like Beeno, to convert each and every non-believer out there. I am sure that that was not what was meant when we were told to go out and spread the word. I have noticed that almost everyone who have been "at the throats" of the Christians and/or believers in these posts and threads have a good idea of what is written in the Bible. So, there is no need to spread the word. You know it already. You have just chosen not to believe it. If you do not believe, then who am I to try and force you to believe? I am not going to copy and paste pages and pages of stuff from the internet. If you are happy to fry, then so be it. If I have believed all my life and I have adhered to what is expected to me and I die and there is no hereafter, then so what? Who have I harmed during my life. But, what if there is a heaven and a hell and I have spent my life condemning God, Christianity, etc? Fact is that it is not that difficult to "be a Christian". It is actually very easy.
To me, there is no need to prove anything. I do not need proof that it was possible for Christ to turn water into wine or that Moses was able to part the Red Sea or whether it was possible for Christ to let blind people see again. You see, IMO, it is more important what is expected of me than to have proof of these things.
As for slavery. There are many things around slavery that has been said and will in future probably still be said. Thing is that slavery was not always a matter of "hunting down people, catching them and putting them in chains" and then driving them with whips, etc. In many instances people sold themselves as slaves to pay of debt and on ather occasions people just sold themselves as slaves to "make a living". Fact is that, as I have said, the laws about slavery were Old Testamentical Jewish laws.
I did not want to quote and reply to each and every response but I will address a few.
@ Rooinek. Ceradunce, if you find it all so boring then why are you clicking on it? Do you like being bored? Did the title of this thread not give you some hint as to what it might be about? Huh, chump?
I really do not care what you think or suspect about my reason for responding to this thread.
@Rooinek. As ever, Ceradunce is not adding anything to the debate, but rather lecturing people in his typically overbearing manner as to what they should or shouldn't be discussing. Sounds like this tedious and sanctimonious old windbag should get back to Kamp SS where everything is moderated and censored
I have added my view to the debate. If you think that it is nothing, then so be it. For the record, you seem to be as obsessed with Supersupporter as Beeno is. Fact is that there is much less moderation on SS as there is on here. Saffex, for instance wasn't banned from SS as he was here and there is no language filtering on SS as there is on here but that is another argument for another day. I am not interested in going down that route again.
@Bluebok. I actually started this thread specifically to address the homoS topic brought up in another thread. Someone very close to me is g a y. He was never abused as a child. Had a normal upbringing with his three siblings. Had great parents, good education and has a masters degree. Here is the thing that narrow minded people don't get. He does not want to be g a y. He has fought against it his whole life...............
I, and I am sure that there are many others, have no issue with homos exuality. I do have an issue with the subject being shoved down my throat every now and then and I do have an issue with the entire issue of political correctness. That is what is at the bottom of a hell of a lot of BS. I am not allowed to say anything that might offend any one, yet I constantly read and hear about the joking and condemning of religion and particularly Christianity. In South Africa, you can hardly say anything without the possibility of being accused of racism and it is not in SA alone.. It is the same in the UK as well.
Thing is that the "Church" has been wrong in the past and it will probably be wrong in future as well. Church leaders have in the past used the Bible to their own advantage and some probably still do. The same as Muslim extremists using the Koran to their own advantage. The Bible was used to explain Apartheid, etc, but people become educated and start questioning things and put things right. To get back to homose xuality... as far as I know there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits it. What is prohibited, IMO, is se xual intercourse between men and I might be totally wrong.
"22 “‘Do not have sex ual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."
I have always interpreted it as referring to anal se x but as I said, I could be totally wrong here and I am open to be convinced otherwise. Bear in mind the laws about cleanliness in those days.
@Bluebok. Cera, I respect your view, but it is important for me to get clarity on clear contradictions in the bible, because the book as a whole can not be relied on, if it has fundamental flaws.
Jesus said the only way into heaven was through him. Therefore a Muslim child, having never heard of Christianity, that dies, goes straight to hell. That means God created a child that had no chance of going to heaven. Can't you see the contradiction??
As I have said earlier, I am not concerned about the "contradictions" in the Bible. The underlying message is more important, IMO. I cannot see how God would condemn any innocent child. My view and, once again, I may be totally wrong is that you have to find the meaning of John 14:6 is that you have to adhere to the teachings of Jesus Christ to "be saved". The way I see it is that if you have lived your life according to what is expected of you, you would still be saved. I am finding it a bit difficult to explain but it boils down to if you have lived "a good life" that corresponds to the teachings of Jesus Christ, without even knowing of his existence, there is no reason why you should end up in hell. There are many Muslims, Hindus, etc, who live better lives than many so-called Christians. I have seen many people in churches who , IMO, are/were headed straight to hell but who am I to judge?
@Denny. "...because not one single poster can conclusively prove the other is incorrect"
Ons weet niks.
Exactly.
@Devils Adv. Then, I am still waiting for Beeno to advise why people who work on the Sabbath are not killed, as specifically stipulated by the Bible.
Beeno?
I am not going to or even try to fight Beeno's battles for him but I have a view on this. There is no such thing as "You are not allowed to work on Sunday or you are not allowed to do this, that or the other on Sunday". Fact is that the Law states:
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
It does not say that you have to work from Monday to Saturday and then on Sunday you have to spend the whole day in church. It says, IMO, that you have to set aside one day of the week for worship and on that day you are not allowed to do any work, i.e. income producing work. In other words you have to forfeit the income of one day of your work week and use that time to worship, instead of producing income. If you do not do that, you are transgressing one of the Ten Commandments. If yoy have to be killed for doing that, then you also have to kill thieves, fraudsters (people who lie), people who use the name of the Lord in vain, people who do not pay respect to their parents, people who commit adultery, people who covet, etc. Hell, come to think about it. It could solve the problem of over population.
People are born the way they are, with whatever sexuality they are.And yes....who would actively choose to be homosexual, with the bigots and viciousness they still have to endure in this day and age ? I mean, really ?!
As for what hormones you are discussing, Sharkbok.....females would have an abundance of testosterone, males oestrogen. Does that help at all ?
But it isn't really that simple.
LMAO!
I love to way the homophobic RooiAAS, who has been calling me Moffie for years, is suddenly virulently against the Bible's stance on homosecksuals.
If there was a world championship for Hypocrisy the AAs would be our Protea.
In addition, those who lead an honest respectable lives and work for all kinds of charities and keep themselves busy with "church-work" for the sole purpose of making sure that they "go to heaven" are a bunch of hypocrites in any case. Many of them might be in for a mighty surprise day that they depart from this world.
Reminds me about an Army Chaplain who once said to me: "Daai ouens is so besig met die dinge van die Here dat hulle nooit by die Here van die dinge uitkom nie" or in English... "Those guys are so busy with the things of the Lord that they never get to the Lord of the things".
Ceradyne
It does not bother me in the slightest, except when people get insulting, which happens a lot, going both ways.
I am tolerable of any religion, just not ignorance.
In today's news
What tripe is this
Wasted time and money accusing christianity
In the news today
19 year old questions - What God allows this
Please read the article..... it is sickening in it's detail, yet also a very real reality for them
I cannot blame her for asking this question out loud.
I would also like to add
If this happened to most christians or other different religeous people, you would find it extremely hard indeed to find a way to justify your creator.
If you were a religeous woman, who just had her husband beheaded in front of her, then they take your 5 - 12 year old daughter and rape her in front of you, then after 3 days of constant raping they sell her off or marry her off to some other soldier, and you will probably never see her again and you yourself have been sold and repeatedly raped by multiple soldiers over a long period of time, whilst in some cases your entire family has also been annihilated right in front of you.
And you would sit back and think.... there has to be some good that will come out of this?
This is not an attack on christianity at all or other religions.... it is a question that I myself often wonder about and I cannot find the right answer for
Should that wife / mother / daughter live till the ripe old age of 98. I would hate to imagine what hurt and anger she would have to endure during her existence on this earth .


