Club Pro749 posts
21 Oct 2014, 22:25
#41
21 Oct 2014, 22:25#41
Cheers oimatey
biltongbek
Started by sharkbok51 REPLIES525 VIEWS· 20 Oct 2014, 17:40
Captain40,032 posts
22 Oct 2014, 09:02
#42
22 Oct 2014, 09:02#42
JW please keep up the "good" work. However I fear I have frightened all the wimpy kamp ss moles away. But keep looking JW who knows what might happen in the future. If you need advice you know who to call - Beeno the mole buster extraodinaire !
Pro6,663 posts
22 Oct 2014, 10:51
#43
22 Oct 2014, 10:51#43
Hi BB ,wondered if you would end up here , ignore beandip and fer crisssakes dont use the word "Reason "and "beano "in the same universe as the two are as compatible as matter and or antimatter and equally destructive .....but as he cant see either with his weak little eyes he thinks neither exists .
Coach57,555 posts
22 Oct 2014, 10:53
#44
22 Oct 2014, 10:53#44
Biltongbek
When reading the bove it seems that - bar Mozart - the general idea seems to be thatthere are some changes necessary with a view to the future and especially next year. You must be aware that Mozart cannot accept that any player younger than 30 is good enough and for him Jannie du Plessis, Victor Matfield and Jean de Villiers are national treasures without any deficienciencies.
What normally goes amiss is the perception that NH rugby does not provide for all-round skills and is forward - dominated and static - with the backline being less important as an attacking weapon. In watching the European Cup games this weekend it is evident that there is a remarkable change in NH rugby styles since 2007. This probably has to do with the change in the laws to amke rugby more comprehensive and intresting for the viewing public.
In esennce the following needs to be corrected and most of the changes are strictly in line wit what you wrote:-
The Center Combination
We need to devleop a more efective center combination. I always was a great admirer of De Villiers - but his performance this year showed some real deficiencies. It is likely that he may become a iability rather than an asset. My immediate pick would be Serfontein to replace him.
However, the main problem remains the critical no 13 position. We have since 2012 used the following players in that position:-
* Jean de Villiers - he is not really a 13* Jaco Taute - not really successful - was at best average - bu....* Juan de Jomgh - went AWOL in the EOYT tests he played in.
* JJ Engelbrecht - really too one-dimentional - should play on the wing * Jacque Fourie - a powder puff in attack - good in defense.* JP Pietersen - a bettee wing than at center where he has defense problems* Damien de Allende - inexperienced at 13 - but show something in attacking play * Serfomntein - good in defense - but did not show much in attack - really a 12
Of the above 8 players -
* two are really recycled wings (Engelbrecht and Pietersen);* three are inside centers; * three are unsuitable (De Jongh, Taute and Fourie)
In essense I believe the best player to develop as a top 13 is De Allend and I agree with Meyer that he needs experence at 13 as a top priority. I consequently agree with you about Engelbrecht and De Allende - but would switch them around and play Engelbrecht on the wing and De Allende at 13.
The Props
There really si a major problem here. Jannie du Plessis has gone backwards this year and is not a reliable future option. He probably for a player his age has played too much rugby since 2012 and I cannot see him being a factor in future.
The problem is that for the EOYT with both Malherbe and Van der Merwe mising through injury - what is to be done insofar as the Tightheads are concerned. Despite all the contrary remarks I think that Coenie Oosthuizen's neck injuries playd a role and he is not as effective a scrummager as he was in the past.
In essense I would go for either Redelinhuis or Dreyer - or both - for the EOYT and put Jannie on the bench in games. However next year with the returning of malherbe and Van der Merwe I cannot see him as an option.
Insofar as the looseheads are concerned - we have all of Beast, Schalk van der Merwe Nyakane and Tobias du Toit available. For the EOYT I would go with Beast and Schalk van der Merwe as back up.
The Locks
I agree with you - i is time to look only at Etzebeth, Du Toit, De Jager and Willemse as lcoks for next year. Matfield is a player with extremely limited abilities - mainly line outs - and in Tight play he lacks the mongrel to make him effective. Despite all Mozart's musing about not seeing him as being ineffective - I think the Tight 5 needs strengthening and the answer is to leave out Matfield.
The loosies
For me the number 6 loosies are Kriel, Louw and Coetzee in that order. The reason why I prefer Kriel is more to do with his mobility and his ability to link up with the backline in attacking play than eanything else.
At 7 we have a wide choise of players for next year - but a problem for the EOYT. Burger is still efective in certain elements of the game - but he is getting on and was injury prone in recent years. Alberts is a player with extremely limited abilities with a very low work rate - he is tiotally ineffective in breakdown ball protectiona dn recoverry and unable to really pass and catch balls. Mohoje will go on the EOYT - but I am afraid he is a player with noit much to go for in him. The future sevens for next year is to my mind Arno Botha, Lappies Labuschagne and Warren Whiteley.
At 8 I would say that Vermeulen is the number 1 choice. Back-up to come from Whiteley and Arno Botha.
Wings
To my mind Hendricks is a 7's player - he has deficiencies in defense and under the high ball. Pietersen lost pace and I think that one will have to look at players like Engelbrecht and Kobus van Wyk as future selections.
The EOYT Squad
My picks would be the following:-
Full back - Le RouxWings - Habana, Engelbrecht, Van Wyk, SitholeCenters - Serfontein, De Allende, De VilliersFlyhalfs - Pollard, Lambie, GoosenScrummies - Hougaard, ReinachLoosies - Kriel, Coetzee, Burger, Mohoje, LouwLocks - Etzebeth, De Jager, WillemseProps - Redelinghuys, Dreyer, Jannie du Plessis, Beast, Schalk van der Merwe, NyakaneHookers - Bismarck and Strauss
Foreign-based players
I have to agree you about selection of foreign-based players. We have seen what is happening with them. it is very hard to go on form/performance efficiency they display on club level. In the case of Japanese clubs - they are playing "soft" rugby. making them injury-prone, lossing pace and getting more ineffec tive. I think that most of the foreig-based players are in fact non-essential and there are ebtter players playing locally than they are.
In the RC squad there were Bakkies Botha, Morne Steyn and Gurthro Steenkamp, who should never have been anywhere near the squad in the first instance. Habana and Louw is world class and I would have Goosen as the third choice flyhalf - essential because of only one full back in the squad. Pietesen and Ruan Pienaar are also of doubtful worth. IOut of a squad of 36 players - I would say at most three or four players should be included in the EOYT and most of those should be eliminated in future.
When reading the bove it seems that - bar Mozart - the general idea seems to be thatthere are some changes necessary with a view to the future and especially next year. You must be aware that Mozart cannot accept that any player younger than 30 is good enough and for him Jannie du Plessis, Victor Matfield and Jean de Villiers are national treasures without any deficienciencies.
What normally goes amiss is the perception that NH rugby does not provide for all-round skills and is forward - dominated and static - with the backline being less important as an attacking weapon. In watching the European Cup games this weekend it is evident that there is a remarkable change in NH rugby styles since 2007. This probably has to do with the change in the laws to amke rugby more comprehensive and intresting for the viewing public.
In esennce the following needs to be corrected and most of the changes are strictly in line wit what you wrote:-
The Center Combination
We need to devleop a more efective center combination. I always was a great admirer of De Villiers - but his performance this year showed some real deficiencies. It is likely that he may become a iability rather than an asset. My immediate pick would be Serfontein to replace him.
However, the main problem remains the critical no 13 position. We have since 2012 used the following players in that position:-
* Jean de Villiers - he is not really a 13* Jaco Taute - not really successful - was at best average - bu....* Juan de Jomgh - went AWOL in the EOYT tests he played in.
* JJ Engelbrecht - really too one-dimentional - should play on the wing * Jacque Fourie - a powder puff in attack - good in defense.* JP Pietersen - a bettee wing than at center where he has defense problems* Damien de Allende - inexperienced at 13 - but show something in attacking play * Serfomntein - good in defense - but did not show much in attack - really a 12
Of the above 8 players -
* two are really recycled wings (Engelbrecht and Pietersen);* three are inside centers; * three are unsuitable (De Jongh, Taute and Fourie)
In essense I believe the best player to develop as a top 13 is De Allend and I agree with Meyer that he needs experence at 13 as a top priority. I consequently agree with you about Engelbrecht and De Allende - but would switch them around and play Engelbrecht on the wing and De Allende at 13.
The Props
There really si a major problem here. Jannie du Plessis has gone backwards this year and is not a reliable future option. He probably for a player his age has played too much rugby since 2012 and I cannot see him being a factor in future.
The problem is that for the EOYT with both Malherbe and Van der Merwe mising through injury - what is to be done insofar as the Tightheads are concerned. Despite all the contrary remarks I think that Coenie Oosthuizen's neck injuries playd a role and he is not as effective a scrummager as he was in the past.
In essense I would go for either Redelinhuis or Dreyer - or both - for the EOYT and put Jannie on the bench in games. However next year with the returning of malherbe and Van der Merwe I cannot see him as an option.
Insofar as the looseheads are concerned - we have all of Beast, Schalk van der Merwe Nyakane and Tobias du Toit available. For the EOYT I would go with Beast and Schalk van der Merwe as back up.
The Locks
I agree with you - i is time to look only at Etzebeth, Du Toit, De Jager and Willemse as lcoks for next year. Matfield is a player with extremely limited abilities - mainly line outs - and in Tight play he lacks the mongrel to make him effective. Despite all Mozart's musing about not seeing him as being ineffective - I think the Tight 5 needs strengthening and the answer is to leave out Matfield.
The loosies
For me the number 6 loosies are Kriel, Louw and Coetzee in that order. The reason why I prefer Kriel is more to do with his mobility and his ability to link up with the backline in attacking play than eanything else.
At 7 we have a wide choise of players for next year - but a problem for the EOYT. Burger is still efective in certain elements of the game - but he is getting on and was injury prone in recent years. Alberts is a player with extremely limited abilities with a very low work rate - he is tiotally ineffective in breakdown ball protectiona dn recoverry and unable to really pass and catch balls. Mohoje will go on the EOYT - but I am afraid he is a player with noit much to go for in him. The future sevens for next year is to my mind Arno Botha, Lappies Labuschagne and Warren Whiteley.
At 8 I would say that Vermeulen is the number 1 choice. Back-up to come from Whiteley and Arno Botha.
Wings
To my mind Hendricks is a 7's player - he has deficiencies in defense and under the high ball. Pietersen lost pace and I think that one will have to look at players like Engelbrecht and Kobus van Wyk as future selections.
The EOYT Squad
My picks would be the following:-
Full back - Le RouxWings - Habana, Engelbrecht, Van Wyk, SitholeCenters - Serfontein, De Allende, De VilliersFlyhalfs - Pollard, Lambie, GoosenScrummies - Hougaard, ReinachLoosies - Kriel, Coetzee, Burger, Mohoje, LouwLocks - Etzebeth, De Jager, WillemseProps - Redelinghuys, Dreyer, Jannie du Plessis, Beast, Schalk van der Merwe, NyakaneHookers - Bismarck and Strauss
Foreign-based players
I have to agree you about selection of foreign-based players. We have seen what is happening with them. it is very hard to go on form/performance efficiency they display on club level. In the case of Japanese clubs - they are playing "soft" rugby. making them injury-prone, lossing pace and getting more ineffec tive. I think that most of the foreig-based players are in fact non-essential and there are ebtter players playing locally than they are.
In the RC squad there were Bakkies Botha, Morne Steyn and Gurthro Steenkamp, who should never have been anywhere near the squad in the first instance. Habana and Louw is world class and I would have Goosen as the third choice flyhalf - essential because of only one full back in the squad. Pietesen and Ruan Pienaar are also of doubtful worth. IOut of a squad of 36 players - I would say at most three or four players should be included in the EOYT and most of those should be eliminated in future.
Club Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 11:38
#45
22 Oct 2014, 11:38#45
Excellent comment clevermike.
Jean de Villiers
I think we agree on most positions, I will try to cover my concern areas with what you suggest.
I want to see de Villiers rested, for two reasons, I think if he is going to be around for the Rugby World Cup, then management of him will be paramount and he needs limited games.
I also want to see how our centers stand up without him, he is prone to break the defensive line which is something that frustrates me, he used to be more accurate in attempting intercept, but then he had more pace. He also has a tendency to push his passes and flat passes becomes forward passes.
In his place I would like to see Lionel Mapoe or William Small Smith.
Johan Goosen.
This guy is simply too injury prone, and he has left SA for the honey pots at the end of the rainbow, I would much rather have Marnitz Boshoff, he has shown his ability to control matches with the boot when necessary, he doesn't shy away from tackles, and he is quick of the mark, willing to attack the line. Granted he will be third choice, but I think he can develop into a decent back up.
Loosies.
The question here is what type of balance does Meyer want? Jaco Kriel as a 6 goes against the trend of what Meyer has been establishing over the past 33 tests, he has been looking for a pilferer, granted our pack is well balanced as we have Vermeulen, Louw and Bismarck all adept on the ground. Even Marcell Coetzee has been improving his groundwork.
Perhaps if you are considering Jaco Kriel, with his skills he should rather move to 7 and stick with Louw and Marcell at 6.
I personally don't care for overseas players so Louw for me should not be there. I understand many see Willem as a wrecking ball with little intelligence and not an 80 minute player, however on heavier grounds and with his ability to soften the opposition pack I firmly belive he is the fifty minute player that will tire the opposition and then you release a playmaker and link man like Schalk Burger or Kriel.
Front Row
Although exposing young props in the NH where scrumming is still an art form may be risky I can accept that we need to sort out our front row concerns, but remember Redelinghuys and Dreyer aren't the heaviest props around and they might struggle in Europe. If they come through with flying colours then great, but I suspect it is going to be tough for them first up.
Wings
I like your wings, and again, go without Habana, I think we both agree JJ could be a better wing than outside centre, and would like to see him play there, if we leave Habana in France, who else can be included at wing? Mvovo? He isn't shabby under the high ball and does have a decent boot. I would like to see Bjorn Basson get a shot, he is excellent under the high ball, has oodles of pace and is in very good nick.
Overall I think most areas are well covered for depth, but it depends on combinations that will complement each other.
Our biggest areas of concern, front row (Meyer has tried 18 different players here in 33 tests), midfield (Meyer has tried 9 different players here, but yet haven't found his answers) and back three, (Meyer has tried 9 different players here) need solutions.
I am very happy with Hougaard, Reinach, Pollard and Lambie getting opportunities in the RC, and I sincerely hope Meyer sticks to them as his playmakers going forward.
Pro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2014, 12:53
#46
22 Oct 2014, 12:53#46
There is plenty of time to manage our players next year. I am not in favour of resting the core of our team right now. They must all go on tour and play.
Meyer has had since 2012 to get his side together.
I am hoping he's settled on at least 90% of his world cup team by now ... cause let's face it, we cannot afford to still by blooding youngster across the board.
Yes there are a few spots that need to be addressed and I'm hoping he'll do so next month.
We need to look at our starting tighthead, our lock cover, as well as right wing and full back ... not to mention tweak the bench a bit.
I am fearful that the likes of Ruan Pienaar, Bakkies Botha, Gurthro Steenkamp, Siya Kolisi, Basson, Kirchner and JJ find their way back into the mix.
Anything is possible with Meyer. For all we know he may even revert to his beloved kick everything away game plan.
Club Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:02
#47
22 Oct 2014, 13:02#47
I understand that, but rest Vicki and Jean at least. I have a feeling our backline will come alive if Jean is not there.
As for Basson and JJ, I think they deserve another shot. Many suggest that JJ is very poor in defence, but when you consider how few tries we conceded last year, I think that perception needs to be revisited, Basson is very good under the high ball, defensively perhaps a little weak, but he doesn't show the fear in defence like Hendricks does.
Captain40,032 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:08
#48
22 Oct 2014, 13:08#48
As stated I think Jannie and jean should tour but be on the bench. Schalk should start at 7. matfiled and bakkies should be sent packing. That deals with the older players.
Goosen cannot be written off at so young an age. He started senior rugby far too early and got hurt. Bad managment. Very talented player. I agree Marnitz is a very good flyhalf.
Kriel shouild be considered as an impact player. Give him a good 25 to 30 minutes and see what happens. Our loose trio looks to be Coetzee, Vermulen and Schalk.
I dont see Hendricks as bang but admit he was ineffective against Savea on defence. He needs to have his technique improved. He should not be jetisoned as he offers a huge amount on attack.
Basson has never cut it in top company - seems to lack belief? Could be maturing?Midfield start with Jan and Allende and Jean on the bench.
Logic dictates the Lions props get a shot. Beast and Jannie on the bench?
Goosen cannot be written off at so young an age. He started senior rugby far too early and got hurt. Bad managment. Very talented player. I agree Marnitz is a very good flyhalf.
Kriel shouild be considered as an impact player. Give him a good 25 to 30 minutes and see what happens. Our loose trio looks to be Coetzee, Vermulen and Schalk.
I dont see Hendricks as bang but admit he was ineffective against Savea on defence. He needs to have his technique improved. He should not be jetisoned as he offers a huge amount on attack.
Basson has never cut it in top company - seems to lack belief? Could be maturing?Midfield start with Jan and Allende and Jean on the bench.
Logic dictates the Lions props get a shot. Beast and Jannie on the bench?
Club Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:11
#49
22 Oct 2014, 13:11#49
agree Hendricks is an excellent attacking weapon, but watch closely when there is a highball, he literally runs himself out of position, I was surprised the opposition coaches didn't attack his space more with kicks.
Captain40,032 posts
22 Oct 2014, 13:27
#50
22 Oct 2014, 13:27#50
Hendricks is a defite concern and the NH will have picked up on this as well. Still I hope it can be rectified and he really is an excellent attacking wing with great pace, footwork and desrie to run.
I dont know what more the Lions props can do to prove their credentials other than being given a shot at test rugby.
We have to be very careful here. As CC says we cant gop youth crazy. we cant go attack crazt as well. Meyer has to find the balance.
Rugby in the NH is different. It is often a foward battle from what I have seen. We do not want to be out muscled by the likes of England. I think Willemse the right partner for Eben against England. Bissie to start.If you play the Lions props early on you will get an idea as to how they go.
I dont know what more the Lions props can do to prove their credentials other than being given a shot at test rugby.
We have to be very careful here. As CC says we cant gop youth crazy. we cant go attack crazt as well. Meyer has to find the balance.
Rugby in the NH is different. It is often a foward battle from what I have seen. We do not want to be out muscled by the likes of England. I think Willemse the right partner for Eben against England. Bissie to start.If you play the Lions props early on you will get an idea as to how they go.
Club Pro749 posts
22 Oct 2014, 14:07
#51
22 Oct 2014, 14:07#51
First we will have to see who Meyer is going to pick in his squad for the tour, if he does pick the Lions front row, then I suspect he will pick his moments to test them.
If he does pick them to start together e will most likely pick an experienced physical lock pair to help stabilise the scrum.
Coach57,555 posts
22 Oct 2014, 15:54
#52
22 Oct 2014, 15:54#52
Mozart is a miracle man. He invents things and then think he is making a valid point:-
"De Allende is a powerful chap, but seems to lack game savvy having taken up the game quite late."
De Allende played school rugby, but since he was not in a prominent rrugby school he was not in the 2012 Under 20 WC team. However, at the age of 20 he played for WP 24 games in 2012 and was at 12 in the 2012 CC final. He only turned 21 in November 2012. One wonders how much younger he must be to start his provincial rugby career.
Because Mozart intensely dislike De Allende - he missed he point completely. Since his school days - when he occassionally played at 13 for this school - he either played played at 12 or 1 4 forthe Stormers and WP - never at 13. What he needs is more experinence playing at 13 - not because of having taken up the game quite late.
"De Allende is a powerful chap, but seems to lack game savvy having taken up the game quite late."
De Allende played school rugby, but since he was not in a prominent rrugby school he was not in the 2012 Under 20 WC team. However, at the age of 20 he played for WP 24 games in 2012 and was at 12 in the 2012 CC final. He only turned 21 in November 2012. One wonders how much younger he must be to start his provincial rugby career.
Because Mozart intensely dislike De Allende - he missed he point completely. Since his school days - when he occassionally played at 13 for this school - he either played played at 12 or 1 4 forthe Stormers and WP - never at 13. What he needs is more experinence playing at 13 - not because of having taken up the game quite late.
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