Bok centre combination

Dave, just to take three incidents: - At minute 15.25 De Jongh runs through the gap between Venter (who takes him low) and JJ ( who takes him high). But de Jongh still powers through them and to ground, leading to quick ball and , presto, the Habana try. _ At minute 26.55 De Jongh gets the ball midway between half and quarter, gets hit by JJ head on 5 metres from the 22, but powers over the 22 eventually stopped by JJ and Potgieter combineds. - At minute 53.57 De Jongh has a bit of space, fakes JJ on the inside and takes him on the outside. NDungane manages to slow him up by pulling his jesrsey and Jj recovers as he is slowed down and makes the tackle. - That's how I see it....3 one on one tackle situations, in each of which JJ had help, in none of which he made a clean stop.

@Saffex

 

I'd like to see things from your point of view but I can't seem to get my head that far up my ass.

Name me one modern day center who relies more on speed than his ball carrying ability?  New Zealand use their blindside and Conrad Smith as the second and third carriers because they are effective at producing quality front foot ball. Strong ball carriers. 

 

NZ us the centers to attack the opposition fly half with a power centre (Ma’a Nonu).
Nonu will have support from the blindside winger (Cory Jane).
 

He can receive the ball before the line or Nonu may offload to him through the line. If Nonu takes the tackle, Jane will act as a cleaner at the ruck.

 

Jacque Fourie wasn't the quickest but he had power. Serfontein  power. Jamie Roberts. Power. Brain O Driscoll. Power. Tuilagi Power. Fofana Power.  Sterling Mortlock - Power. Daniel Herbert Power. Kahui Power. Rougerie Power

 

So dream on mate

Spoon I know you are thick but try catch a wake up. For a start the likes of Fourie, Smith, O'Driscoll, Ranger. Ashley-Cooper etc have plenty of pace - many of them have played on the wing. Now my point is that JJ adds some clout to our Bok backline at 13 as he has added pace, look no further than the tries he has scored this year in the tests or where he has created space out wide through pace. I am not saying he is about pace only, he has great feet and is a physical lad.......get it?

Sorry Moz that is not how it happened. At minute 15.25, JJ had very little involvement in the miss on de Jongh. The culprit was Venter with a straight miss. JJ would have expected Venter to make the one on one tackle. JJ hardly gets a hand on de Jongh.....it was not his tackle. At minute 26.55 JJ smashes de Jongh and stops him in his tracks, I see no powering forward by de Jongh at all. It was a great hit by JJ. Yep at minute 53......de Jongh steps JJ partially but JJ reals him in with ease as de Jongh lost his balance with the step. Only one of those was a miss by JJ as was his miss on v/Aswegen.......both times he was stepped.......that's rugby for you. For the rest JJ was not the culprit or had very little involvement in the tackle. JJ missed 2 tackles on the day. de Jongh defensively was equally guilty.

Saffex I aked Mozart if he nows a link to internet that I can use to look at his allegations bout the issue - but he is so besotted with De Jongh that he never answered. I tend to believe your version - but would like to have a look at the game if possible

I don't know Mike, many of the games can be found on Youtube. I have the game on my Sky box!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLjoxWJFhfM - De Jongh outplayed JJ....end of story.

I'm not arguing for de Jongh over JJ, I'm simply using de Jongh to measure JJ's play. So what do we really know at this point? JJ is being widely promoted based on his S15 performance and the June tests. But the S15 performance was ordinary until Serfontein arrived and ordinary last Saturday when Serfontein was absent. And the June test performance was in tests against teams we were clearly better than and beat easily. - So what do we really know? JJ is a very fast, strong runner, with a good step....and he is hard to bring down. All of which makes him a great finisher. If he was a wing that might be enough....but at 13 he also needs to create for himself and others. And do that in very limited space, which is the norm in test rugby. He has yet to have the chance to show that, because what he did in June, was done with lots of space and quick ball. - So on the attacking front he has had a good start, but hasn't really shown us he can do his thing against the close marking he will get in an Oz/NZ test. - Then there is the matter of defence. If you are sceptical go to the time points I marked in the Stormers game and ask yourself what would have happened with those de Jongh half breaks....if it was a NZ centre with NZ backing. - To be honest I am more hopeful than I was 4 months ago, but less hopeful than I was before the Stormers game. He may turn out to be a better Andre Snyman....or he may turn out to be a wing in centre's clothing.

Mozart Thanks for the link. I had a look at all the incidents you mentioned. You are correct about one issue involving De Jongh and JJ - namely the one at minute 53 - where De Jongh made about six meters after he got the ball. He stepped Engelbrecht and made about 5 meters before he got tackled - and the movement was for the moment stopped in its tracks. The other instances really got tackled and fell forward in the tackle - made possibly 1 meter in tackle situation - nothing more. The other instance where he ran along the outside line was after a forward pass and half of the players stopped playing because the ref was about the blow for it. Sorry you are stretching the situation to fit your argument - 5 meters is not applicable in any of the moves other than the one mentioned. I looked at the stats as well they showed 6 carries making 21 meters - ie an average of 3,5 meters per carry. You mentioned 4 instances where he carried the ball a total of 20 meters - so what happened in the other cases. Furthermore De Jongh beat 1 defender once only and he never off-loade the ball once. The stats and your account just does not match up - sad to say. I know for some reason De Jongh can do no wrong in your opinion - but please look at the game - and match your statement in accordance with the stats before coming up with debatable points.

Poor old Maaik....you can't even be spoon fed you are so thick. I am just going to take you through one incident.....the one at minute 26.55. - The ball goes from van Aswegen to de Jongh. He is about 8 metres outside the 22 when he gets the ball. How do I know. Well you can count his strides, but I'm sure stopping the video is too challenging....so you can compare with the 15 metre mark which is 2 metres long.....or you can note he is halfway between the 10 metre line and the 22. - He then runs onto JJ who is the full length of the 15 metre mark, outside his 22, when de Jongh receives the ball. He moves a step forward putting him 3 metres outside the 22 when contact is first made (he is not being very aggressive). - De Jongh is sliding past his tackle when Potgieter arrives to help. Together they try and stop him, but he continues his forward momentum into the 22....laying the ball back on the 22 metre line. - So what has happened here? De Jongh made about 6 metres before JJ hit him....JJ made at best one into the tackle. After that he made 3 plus metres to the 22 and over it. He then laid the ball back for good quick service. -- In all de Jongh travelled about 9 metres with the ball, rode two tackles and got the ball back to his team quickly. - Why did this happen. Well firstly because JJ froze when de Jongh got the ball. Then he made a school boy mistake as de Jongh stepped....he got all of his weight going back......which is why when contact was made the smaller player was able to power forward. Instinctive tacklers move into the tackle....not back from the tackle. - But you say 5 metres is not applicable to any of the moves.....he made at least 9 in this move, including at least three through the tackle. But puleeze, this is painful stuff, go off and bother somebody else.

Crap Mozart - that incident that you cooked up happened as follows. DeJongh had about 8 meters clear space before Engelbrecht tackled him and he went down falling forward. He fell forward in the tackle and did not drag Engelbrecht 5 meters in the tackle situation as you outlined previously. That is my point entirely. Please Mozart - go and study your stats. If De Jong made 13 meters in the one move - where did h e get the other 8 meters in 5 moves from? Let me quote you:- " De Jongh making 5 metres after the JJ tackle was a regular feature." That really is bullshit - you should be ashamed of yourself in making that statement.

So if you admit he ran through 8 metres of space how could you say : "5 meters is not applicable in any of the moves other than the one mentioned ". A lie it seems. - Did de Jongh make 5 metres through the tackle in this incident. No, on review it was more like 4. But did JJ stop him cleanly once....nope in one case he combined with Venter, in another case he combined with Potgieter, in a third case at minute 51.30 De Jongh gets hit by JJ and Venter, JJ slips off the tackle and Morne joins with Venter, to bring him to ground, in a fourth case he beats JJ cleanly and only gets tackled after he is held back by Ndungane. - So in some cases he made more than 5 metres after the initial tackle in some cases he made less. Saying he made 5 metres was meant to be indicative not a measured distance every time. I think most posters would get that. - But in each case JJ failed to bring him to ground by himself, failed to stop his forward progress and failed to prevent quick ball from de Jongh. - Your dislike for this player, clouds your already cloudy judgement.. Juan did us a favour, he raised the right questions about JJ's defence.

Mozart Whether you like it or not - your initial comments were explicit - inclusive of the one I quoted earlier. It is furthermore contradicted by the ESPN match stats. Let me be quite frank - Engelbrecht has some defence defficiencies - which I pointed out in earlier postings giving Saffex nearly a fainring fit - but to fabricate info so as to show De Jongh up as the hero of the hour - Is definitely not justified. There are some issues to be borne in mind as to the game as well. The Bulls forward display was inferior and Morne's passing game crap at best - his strategic kicking was worse than I have seen for a long time. That - coupled to a poor display at 12 by Venter - made life for Engelbrecht very hard. One game is not the career barometer you always try and make it out to be. On the other hand you never referred to the two missed tackles by De Jongh either - neither do you ever comment - other than to find excuses - on his atrocious defence statistics this year. Your unwavering support of De Jongh is indeed comical - so lets leave it at that. I see De Jongh from a wider perspective - his overall performances in all aspects of the game does not make him test material - and that is my point continuously. Where he was given an opportunity to play in tests in November 2012 - he failed miserably in both - so why continue to harp on a player that has failed virtually all the time since 2011 in Super 15 and in tests?

Saffex

No they don't have plenty of pace. Just like Nonu do not have pace that a guy like Williams and Habana got. They got power. Look at Fourie's one try vs England. Power got him home. Against Crusaders power and his ability to hand off. 

 

Andre Snyman had pace and power. But they bulk up to be bigger and stronger carriers and loose that pace in the process. 

Spooony You are correct you know. I met Andre Snyman once in Durban and his built was really unbelievable. He was injured at the time and said that his comeback will be spectacular - it was nothing but that. I think he ended up with too little speed to be effective. I think power is a must - but must to an extent be not so much that the player slowed down too much. There needs to be some balance in the process. The one other requirement all centers should have is ball sense - which incorporates reading of the game. If a player constantly does the same thing every time he gets the ball it represents a situation where disaster looms. This is why I am so disappointed in Steyn's performances over the past year. Besides this Steyn is another case where speed was sacrificed for bulk and it shows badly in his performances. Maybe not bulk in his case - rather lard. LOL