Bok November Touring Squad - Another wasted oppertunity

The European tour would have been a perfect opportunity to bring in players that has been shining in Europe but yet again we are stuck with some really questionable choices. 

Props:
Thomas du Toit (Cell C Sharks) – 13 caps, 0 pts
Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 5pts (1t)
Vincent Koch (Saracens) – 28 caps, 0 pts
Ox Nche (Cell C Sharks) – 6 caps, 0pts
Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 51 caps, 5pts (1t)

Hookers:
Joseph Dweba (Bordeaux Bègles) – 1 cap, 0 pts
Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 43 caps, 45 pts (9t)
Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 45 caps, 45 pts (9t)

Locks:
Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 53 caps, 25 pts (5t)
Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 94 caps, 15 pts (3t)
Salmaan Moerat (DHL Stormers) – Uncapped
Marvin Orie (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 0 pts

Loose forwards:
Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 60 caps, 30 pts (6t)
Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 16 caps, 5 pts (1t)
Marco van Staden (Leicester Tigers) – 9 caps, 0 pts
Duane Vermeulen (Ulster) – 58 caps, 15 pts (3t)
Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 8 caps, 0 pts

Utility forward:
Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)

Scrumhalves:
Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 18 caps, 25 pts (5t)
Cobus Reinach (Montpellier) – 18 caps, 40pts (8t)
Grant Williams (Cell C Sharks) – Uncapped

Flyhalves:
Elton Jantjies (NTT Docomo Red Hurricanes) – 41 caps, 309 pts (2t, 64c, 56p, 1d)
Handre Pollard (Montpellier) – 57 caps, 558 pts (6t, 83c, 120p, 4d)

Midfielders:
Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 23 caps, 25 pts (5t)
Damian de Allende (Munster) – 55 caps, 35 pts (7t)
Jesse Kriel (Canon Eagles) – 48 caps, 60 pts (12t)

Outside backs:
Aphelele Fassi (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 10pts (2t)
Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 70 caps, 60 pts (12t)
Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 22 caps, 85 pts (17t)
Sbu Nkosi (Cell C Sharks) – 25 caps, 45 pts (9t)

Utility backs:
Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 14 caps, 5pts (1t)
Frans Steyn (Toyota Cheetahs) – 71 caps, 141pts (11t, 7c, 21p, 3d)

Who the bloody  his Grant Williams, 3rd choice sharks scrum half. 

Salman, sien sy gat moer  in 'n rat?

So much better players than these guys. 

I hate to  bring  it up but smells like quotas

We should have brought in Tyrone Green, this guys has been on  fire. 

So many discarded players with  other test teams can't wait to get their hands on them. Even if its just for a  couple of season and the player is already 30.

What has Moerat done other than being binned most of the time. 

Why not use Ivan van Zyl who was the boks first pick a few seasons ago and knows the system that a guy that hasn't played for 6 months and then expect him to run out against England  at Twickenham

I think the two locks are very poor selections.    Ori is a joke and Moerat  is even a worse joke.   there are at least 5 locks available better than those 2.    And then we have Mostert still in the team - a player whose open-field tackle ratio is a joke as well and has no ability to carry the ball against strong defense.    I would also start looking at replacing Elton Jantjies.   

It also seems as if Frans Steyn would be a grandfather and still playing for the Springboks in about 10 minutes per game as a back-up.    why not use Gelant for that purpose?             

Tell us about Frans’ knees Slyman.

Agree that an opportunity to introduce talented new blood has been missed.

Some of these selections must have family connections at SARU.

A pity.

So far, Willemse's only positive contribution was a turnover. An important one to be sure, but nothing else in all of his tests. Is he really more useful than Esterhuizen? I don't even have the desire to go further on some of the others. There are so many dud selections, many making no sense whatsoever. 

"Posted by: mozart (34743 posts)

Tell us about Frans’ knees Slyman"

There were some reports about his knees being permanently damaged back when he was playing for the Sharks under Jake...apparently why he was unable to go for the longrange drops and place kicks at the time...glad to see he overcome those difficulties. 

What Jake had to say:

2014 looks set to be a big year for Steyn in particular after a disappointing year in 2013 that was marred by injury.

“I've known what makes Frans tick, since he was a schoolboy at Grey College. I know how he thinks,” White told the Sharks website.

“His whole life has changed, he has a child now, his value system has changed, and I'm sure that will have an impact on the way he plays and prepares.

“Last year he went through three coaches before the year ended. He likes stability, he likes to be guided without force. He is a prodigy, a sensational player, a freak.

“He was spoken about as the guy who could change rugby. That's what's so exciting. I've sat him down and told him I really need him to show everyone what I think he can do.

“That's important, because when he's next to Pat, you will see a much better Pat Lambie. He's still a work in progress. He came back here and had a knee op, so he's not 100% yet, but everyone knows what his 80% is and that's better than most people when they're 100%.

"Steyn in particular after a disappointing year in 2013 that was marred by injury."

"Steyn rejoined The Sharks by signing a 3-year deal on 29 May 2012."

" After only 2 matches back, Steyn was not selected for the Springbok end of year tour in 2013"

"On 3 June 2014 Steyn signed a two-year deal with Japanese club Toshiba Brave Lupus"

Steyn’s knees were described as terminal to his career ….seven years later it’s obvious it was bs.

I have seen Moerat have some decent games. Not sure he is a test-level player, but he is certainly a solid player. He is abrasive and physical. Certainly mucb better than Corrie. 

"Steyn’s knees were described as terminal to his career….seven years later it’s obvious it was bs." It was obviously BS, but I recall something in the press about it...something about the knees cartilage causing severe pain.

The BS above is amazing.  Steyn himself said he had a knee problem and that was confirmed he was poor in defense as a result.    He was overweight and  in 2013 after 4 games on Super Rugby he was so bad that Plumtree dropped him from the team  and evens aid he was no center,    The injury situation of the Sharks were poor and when Jordaan was injured as well Steyn was brought in  to play at center - was injured again and did not play on Super Rugby that year.    That was not only the injury that kept him out of the EOYT  - in fact he had two games on CC level before the tour .    In 2014 he was terminally poor - being banned for five weeks  and had a shocker against the Highlanders.    His contract was not reviewed iwhen it lapsed in 2015 basically because he in three years never really delivered  and up to expectations.

Erasmus was looking for an all-rounder and in view of injuries he chose Steyn as a back up player - since Erasmus  became  involved Steyn mostly played for ten minutes  when  the games were already won and in the main at full back - he only started at cneter against Namibia.   

The other moan is related to Esterhuizen.  He was given plenty opportunities to prove himself as a solid test player and he failed badly - a limited  pace deficient player with strong carrying - but then causing loss of ball possession  with a sub-par defense ability.     Not  a test level player - but also a problem with discipline  - at his club he had a total of eight weeks bans  in one season - so a questionable  player from that perspective too.\

Steyn is no center and Plumtree said so and used him at full back where he really is despite a rather problematic pace deficiency - which limit him iro defense at full back.   Esterhuizen is limited to center where he has no chance to play with the classy De Allende in the team and other better center options available. 

As to the rest  - we have a problem at flyhalf  and  with the unavailability of Du Toit a problem at 7 as well.   Nobody can perform of the level of the World Player of the  Year of 2019 and Mostert is a waste of space at lock as well as blindside flank.    We really missed Du Toit in the RC tests this year.            . 

Draad 

The real problem with his knee at center was that it inhibits him from moving sideways when he had to make tackles and it did not work out well enough.   He still has a defensive problem even at full back - but that has more to do with his pace deficiency.    For that reason the other backline players make sure he is not expose in defense when he comes off the bench.    The story that the problem never existed is a joke in bad taste.             

This was an ideal opportunity to try a few things and freshen up the squad,

Certainly not.

SA rugby is a world number one through tricks and confusion.

This tour and the rigged world stage is an opportunity for SA rugby to keep pretending what they are not.

SA rugby can not play rugb, have no established game systems; they are a bunch of mercenaries able to do hits when led by a staff willing to make the most of circumstances.

That is all.

Given that the November circumstances are highly favourable to SA rugby in order to keep the number one spot, it is no place to fiddle around.

There is no continuity in SA rugby, it is not like players to introduce to a game system etc so they may scale their game up. Nothing like that.

As to the new called ins, they wont even get one minute of play. They wont earn a cap except through again circumstances.

SA rugby well know that their WCs were bestowed on them by WR in an attempt to promote rugby in SA. Which means they automatically are written off for the next world. On its own merits, SA rugby can not win a WC.

What is left to SA rugby is extending as much as possible their undeserved stay as world number one.

No WC to prepare, no rugby game to develop etc Just saving the face, just for the farce to live out one more day.

Nice try Slyman. Everybody knew Frans had knee problems…..but it was you who assured us that, according to your totally reliable sources, his playing days were done…..eat your crow.

Amazing how Harrassmiss is never named in these selection ‘disappointments’ ….as if he is not involved. Personally I think the  Bargie series made more sense for experiments.

Did  Frans Steyn  play for the Springboks between 2013 and 2017?    No he did not and the fact is that Erasmus looking for  back-up players chose him to sometimes play from the bench.   He played in essense for about 10 top 15 minutes in games. in 2018 to date and never played a major role in those games he did play in.             

I hate to  bring  it up but smells like quotas

Ah, the quota easy tale.

At the moment, SA rugby is a rugby that has no roots, anchored to nowhere and that is kept alive thanks to the generosity from the north.

SA rugby keep itself up by panhandling to the north.

Up to this day, it is the North that shoulders the burden of the taint known as SA rugby.The North is paying and the North remembers.

Two years of a devastating covid crisis and most unions try to make up for the revenue losses by multiplying games. NZ planned up to five games for this November tour.

In the meantime, SA rugby from the empoverished SA have done little to increase their revenue lines.

The coaching staff that is taking a lot of blame know at least when not to push their luck too much.

They have understood that the rugby situation where clubs must release players they pay for free so they can play international games is an oddity. Anywhere else, the hirer is the decider.

Calling up already overpaid SA players hired in northern clubs (overpaid as a pitiful attempt to drag SA locals into the rugby game, join rugby, rugby can make you rich) for what appears to be filler positions, playing them zero minute or risking them an injury...

That is not sizing up quite well the SA rugby situation.

When leeching off, when freeloading, some times, it is fine to understand when stepping down.

Maybe one day northern clubs will send the bill to federations when they select club players, maybe.

When it happens, SA rugby will sure feel it.

At the moment, though, better avoid forwarding to this time by selecting overpaid players and depriving clubs from them just for the sake of playing filler parts in training sessions.

Those players are not quota, they are players assigned to chores and their skin colour tells a lot about SA rugby.

From SA Rugby Mag "Springbok head coach Jacques Nienaber has explained why in-form youngsters from South Africa’s Vodacom United Rugby Championship teams missed out on selection for the November tour squad.

On Tuesday, the Springboks confirmed the 32-man squad to be touring the United Kingdom in November, for Tests against Wales, Scotland and England.

While the Vodacom Bulls, Stormers, Lions and Sharks have struggled in the first four rounds of the URC, there were expectations that the likes of Phepsi Buthelezi, Evan Roos, Warrick Gelant, Elrigh Louw and Ruan Nortje could be in line for a call-up.

Gelant is the only one of those who has been capped, with the Stormers fullback making an excellent return from a long-term knee injury.

However, Stormers lock and co-captain Salmaan Moerat turned out to be the only newcomer in the squad, with Sharks scrumhalf Grant Williams the only other uncapped player.

Explaining the omissions, Nienaber said that it is up to those players to show a level of consistency that will lift their respective teams up the URC table.

“Those players probably fall in the category of fringe national players, where they are delivering proper performances at franchise level. If you look at it, there were probably one or two good performances from a teams’ perspective and I agree guys like Evan have put in some proper individual performances,” said Nienaber.

“But the key is now to put in consistent performances and kick on in teams that are performing consistently, not only at an individual level. It’s almost a case of the team having to be lifted by the showings of those players.

“By doing that, you encourage a player to take ownership of different things, like his department [spearheading the lineouts or taking the lead at ruck time] or showing general leadership. The players know exactly what we’re talking about,” Nienaber added.

“Evan is playing brilliant rugby, but what about Jasper Wiese? He’s only played 10 Tests and will possibly add another three more. He’s still very much a rookie. He’s in this position [having a Springbok spot] because he kept knocking and knocking on the door.

“Even when he came in, he was probably No 4 in the pecking order. Then Duane got injured, Dan [du Preez] got Covid and Jean-Luc [du Preez] became injured. He persisted and got his chance.

“There’s no door standing in anyone’s face, we’re still watching everyone  and keeping tabs on their performances.”

Nienaber went on to point out that the Boks have managed to expand their depth in a difficult year during which the team faced the British & Irish Lions and played most of their Rugby Championship fixtures in Australia.

“I think we’ve been building a squad since 2018 and it was well documented that Rassie has a six-year contract up till 2023, so that’s what the premium is on,” Nienaber said.

“Also, if you look at the squad, we have youngsters coming in at every tier – like Ox Nche or Joseph Dweba or Salmaan and Jasper Wiese. We’re continuously introducing younger players.

“It’s probably just at flyhalf where we didn’t do that. Even in the back three, we have a newbie in Aphelele Fassi.

“We have our eye on consistency and experience because that’s what we’ll need at a World Cup. We’re fortunate in that most of our squad is experienced, but still quite young. The average age is 28, you don’t always achieve that.”

Mike, Frans Steyn is and was always a bloody great talent, but he has been yanked about from a dumb coaches. 

Rassie picked him because he helped him draw the Cheetahs first currie cup way back when. That currie cup draw was what put Rassie on the map against a very experience bulls team. He then won it in 2007 and but was a watered down comp, but we still had most of our professional players in SA, before the mass exodus of players. 

I think Frans Steyn had a massive game. 

But I fully agree with you that Frans lost a lot form, both in terms of his game his shape, too many pastries in France. But he came back to the sharks, I was hoping he would settle at 12 as Jean started to creek a bit and we needed a replacement. 

But he quickly buggered of back to France when things didn't quite work out. 

First it was Snorre who spoke a bunch of kak to him to tell him to be Jean. But for me he was a really good 15, can do the job at 12 and break the line but never a 10, can do the job but took too long to get his kicks away, often resulting in charge downs. 

But he is 34 now, so would be 36 at the next WC, not sure he'll make and if he does, Rassie needs a klap. 

I would have love to see more of him and he did a solid job against the All Blacks, if Nov is not his last then next year should definitely be his last. We won the Lions series and that was all that mattered to Rassie. 

I want to see the boys go on an unbeaten run in 2022 and I wanted to see new guys come through and build squad depth

I also want to see more attack, less kicking and time to say goodbye to the old timers. 

Geez Dave I’m disappointed….normally your lists of overlooked players are twice as long. Glad you found a place for Rickus though, a man who had that name inflicted on him deserves a few breaks,

Frans a poor retention? With so many players playing so poorly, dropping Frans from the squad is actually a big gamble. Remember, he is the reason we won any games against Australia and New Zealand at all! An undeserved result when all things are considered. Lood and Damian, as well as Kolisi, Willemse, Nkosi, Fassi... these are some of the prime candidates that should go. 

Frans' carries are a vast upgrade from Damian. So too his movement on defence and attack, great anticipation and ability to use space to create pressure and limit options. His defence is still monstrous and he has multiple ways to threaten a defence. He is faster, stronger, more skilful than Damian. In fact, he has been one of a small handful of genuinely effective players so far this season. None of your "class acts" are part of that group. Without Frans, we don't beat New Zealand. It's that simple. 

Damian isn't a top 20 centre at any level. Outplayed, outclassed by every opponent this year. Fassi is a man who can run fast, not a quality rugby player. Gelant has potential, but not under the current José model. 

Frans is more than fast and agile enough. Quite funny you question this given how poor Lood and Steph are in this regard. Damian's range of movement isn't that great. The Boks are so slow and clunky in their attacking development that nobody could possibly ever be too slow, though we have seen poor fitness show itself in the team, which accounted for poor positioning later in games. 

Yes Harrassmiss can’t have Nienaber actually winning matches on his own, blows up the whole myth.

Leaning heavily on that worn and tired crutch. Sagging now as he shuffles desperately. 

Rassie vs the ABs 1.5/2.5 ……..Nienaber vs the ABs 1/1. 

Tell Mr Kerevi who dominated Dud Allende. Hard to say Dud Toit is  even test class anymore, he isn’t playing since being hurt in contact  by a wing.

Both Bok centres have been outplayed in every test this year.