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FORUM / RUGBY /  Bok tour a huge failure

Bok tour a huge failure

Started by Beeno126 REPLIES442 VIEWS· 01 Dec 2014, 22:44
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Dec 2014, 22:44
#1
01 Dec 2014, 22:44#1

Ex Keo:

SARugbymag.co.za's panel of experts on the Bok tour, players who impressed and disappointed, selections, and lessons learned.

ROBBIE KEMPSON (former Bok prop)

'It's quite obvious the tour was a failure. It should have been about blooding youngsters, but that's not what happened. As for the players who impressedCoenie Oosthuizen was very solid in the scrum, Duane Vermuelen continued to be dominant, Victor Matfield took control of the lineout, and we have the two best hookers in the world in Bismarck du Plessis and Adriaan Strauss. Pat Lambie was good but Handré Pollard should've been given another start. Willie le Roux had a bad tour and his defensive frailties let him down. The backline in general misfired. The Boks lack a replacement lock pairing because if Eben Etzebeth is injured who else is there? Blindside flank is also a worrying position. Oupa Mohoje was off the pace but it's not his fault because it's difficult to adapt to northern hemisphere conditions (funny to make thsi excuse just for oupa). was unfortunate not to play, as he was outstanding this year.'

JIMMY STONEHOUSE (Pumas coach)

'A lot of youngsters should have played on this tour to get experience in northern hemisphere conditions, and it's a pity we didn't get to see Warren Whiteley and Jaco Kriel. There weren't many standout performers, but Marcell Coetzee was solid and Nizaam Carr made an impact off the bench, especially against Italy – Heyneke Meyer should have started him against Wales. Wille le Roux was very disappointing – he made far too many mistakes and kicked too much – and the two scrumhalves [Francois Hougaard and Cobus Reinach] didn't perform either. It will be interesting to see who replaces Jean de Villiers, if this knee injury rules him out of the World Cup. Damian de Allende doesn't have much international experience, as he only came off the bench against Wales on tour. I think they need to get Frans Steyn back.'(NOT ON THE FORM WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE LAST FEW SEASONS.BUT HERE'S HOPING) 

WAYNE FYVIE (former Bok flank)

'The tour was a failure, not just because of the losses to Ireland and Wales but the way the Boks performed in those matches. The win against England was a positive, though. Cobus Reinach had a good tour – he shows great commitment and really stood out for me. When the All Blacks played Scotland, they rested 13 players and still won. Heyneke Meyer should've done the same against Italy. This was the game for the fringe players to be given a chance. They would have been fresh, ready and hungry to make an impact. One thing we have learned from the tour is that we are still far behind the All Blacks. They win in difficult situations and we don't. The Springboks are not consistent.'

JAMES DALTON (former Bok hooker)

'I wouldn't say the tour was a failure, but it wasn't a rip-roaring success either. Provided we use this as experience going forward, there has to be an identification of the 15 best players, whether they are youngsters or not. They then have to start regularly without any rotation policy. Pat Lambie showed he is the future at flyhalf, while Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Duane Vermeulen, Eben Etzebeth and Victor Matfield all did well. It's difficult to blame certain individuals, as I believe it was a bad tour for the team and coaching staff as a collective. None of them return unscathed, everyone's confidence took a dent. In South Africa the coach's selections always come under scrutiny, but given the injuries and the release of the overseas-based players for the match against Wales, Heyneke Meyer made the most of what was available to him. This tour would have humbled the Boks considerably and taught them that northern hemisphere sides are fairly competitive, so they can't slack off when they play teams on the other side of the equator. There's no room for complacency.'

OLLIE LE ROUX (former Bok prop)

'The tour was a huge failure. The coaching was not up to scratch. Duane Vermeulen performed admirably but overall there were no real standouts. A few players performed below their potential, but no player pulls that jersey over his head to fail. Coaching was the real problem. Selection wise, Heyneke Meyer got it spot-on in every game, but tactically not so much. With the World Cup looming, the Boks needed to get acquainted with the style of rugby you need to play in those conditions. They also had to adjust to the way referees officiate the breakdowns over there.'

KOBUS WIESE (former Bok lock)

'For any team ranked among the top five Test nations in the world, let alone second best, those results are not good enough. But it's been building for quite a while now. The Boks were lucky to beat Argentina twice in the Rugby Championship, lost to Australia and only just beat the All Blacks after they already won the title. It was a disastrous end-of-year tour. The most experienced players never showed up and that's worrying. Tours are all about blooding youngsters but Heyneke stuck with the tried and tested. He knows what he has in the older players, so this was an opportunity to see what the youngsters could do in those conditions. Sadly, we will only find out at the World Cup, if he picks the youngsters. I can't say what the Boks learned from the tour, but looking on from the sidelines, it doesn't seem like much, otherwise players like Jaco Kriel and Seabelo Senatla would have got game time on tour, especially after the defeat to Ireland.'

GENERAL DISSATISFACTION AND MEYER COPPING A LOT OF FLACK AND RIGHTLY SO. 

PREPARE FOR THE RETURN OF DU PREEZ WITH EITHER HIM OR MATFILED CAPTAIN.

I have a feeling its tickets unless fate intervenes? Its all going pear shaped right now.

Du Preez as o ne of the three scrummies is okay but matfiled as a starting lock!!!!! The mind boggles at the stupidity!!



SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:00
#2
01 Dec 2014, 23:00#2
 Yep big positive was Coenie doing well at 3
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:01
#3
01 Dec 2014, 23:01#3
 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:02
#4
01 Dec 2014, 23:02#4
Hey what are these likes about?
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:10
#5
01 Dec 2014, 23:10#5
 One of the new features
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:15
#6
01 Dec 2014, 23:15#6
I just liked my own post on another thread. Can it automatically be set to like your own posts, of course people like their own posts?
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:23
#7
01 Dec 2014, 23:23#7
 How do you activate it?Can one also say one doesnt like a JW post with misleading pictures etc.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:26
#8
01 Dec 2014, 23:26#8
 No Beeno, you cannot dislike my posts only your own.
The way posters are on this site we would rather have the dislike button. CleverMike & Mozart will then have a full time job disliking each others posts
PS Beeno: you click on the thumbs up symbol to activate the likes.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:35
#9
01 Dec 2014, 23:35#9
 JW I see my post re your misleading pictures has a like - goes to show!

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:38
#10
01 Dec 2014, 23:38#10
 Beeno: it goes to show that you finally figured out how to push the Like on your own post. Well done Beeno, we are proud of you
PS Beeno: copy this symbol into your posts 
In Roman times it actually meant Like.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
01 Dec 2014, 23:46
#11
01 Dec 2014, 23:46#11
 Mr. Been,
you forgot to highlight the most importaant thing that is said in this article:

"One thing we have learned from the tour is that we are still far behind the All Blacks"

This could be the resume of the boks' EOYT. As it's said by almost all the coaches it has been a big failure and leaves too many question marks about their winning possibilities 1 year before the RWC (and 4 test matches left).

Problems have risen all over the squad.
There's no reliable scrumhalf (Reinach is very slow, he needs 2 or 3 steps for passing, has no pace and distribution skills, Hougaard has failed awkwardly and du Preez won't be the answer, he's not the player he was and he won't play any rugby from February till July).
There's no clear flyhalf. there's no experienced pair of centers if JdV is not avalaible (and it could be worst if he's avalaible because he won't have any rugby time next season so he won't have any possibility of getting the form), le Roux is a liability in defense as Hendriks is. Habana has lost his pace.

And the forward pack is not in a better condition. Problems at the front row (jeannie) at the second row (Matfield) and problems at the backrow (Mohoje and Burger don't produce anything). To say that all the coaches highlighted Vermeulen who had a very average EOYT (but in the kingdom of blinds, the one-eyed is the king), getting pushed backwards so many times by the Welsh.
And what would happen with that forward pack if Vermeulen or Etzebeth gat injured? too many question marks
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Dec 2014, 01:31
#12
02 Dec 2014, 01:31#12
Much like 2009 after a great RC....this tour has very little informational content.  
BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
02 Dec 2014, 02:51
#13
02 Dec 2014, 02:51#13

 Saffex: You say "Yep big positive was Coenie doing well at 3" Just imagine how much better we could have been at 3 had Redelinghuys or Dreyer got their well deserved chances.

Redelinghuys was better in the brief period he subbed Coenie.


It seems to me that Dreyer might even be slightly better than Redelinghuys according to the Lions website.


I am not convinced that this was such a successful tour.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Dec 2014, 04:12
#14
02 Dec 2014, 04:12#14
 The tour to my mind was a disaster.    First of all our captain being ijured in what looks like a career-ending injury.
Secondly the dithering players going even further down the road of declining performances - such as Matfield, Jannie du Plessis, JP and even Habana.   
The decision by Meyer to clutter up the squad with has-beens not used or rartely used during the series - players like Morne Steyn, Gurthro Steenkamp, Bakkies Botha.
The non-usage of playes like Senatla and Jaco Kriel
The selection of poor players like Mohoje.
We know that injuries played a role in squad selection and that players like Arno  Botha, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Frans Malherbe and  Lappies Labuschagne was not available for the tour - but their selection would have been doubtful - while the selection fo the low work rate Alberts - one of the worst loosies in world rugby - would have been a certainty if he was available.
The problem is the coach is oanicking and as a result runs back to the agiing players under the misconception that they will somehow recapture their form of a 5 to 10 years ago.   It just will not happen.   
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Dec 2014, 05:33
#15
02 Dec 2014, 05:33#15
The comments by the so called experts contradict each other and have no clarity of thought. We want to be the All Blacks without the building blocks. HM needs to discard all this and find the essence of our competitive advantage. Subdue and penetrate was the old axiom. 
But on this tour we lost the first part. We were out muscled at the breakdown and in the scrums. We put no hurt on our opponents. Our mauls were easily defended....we hardly ever contested our high ball.
So that left our backline one on one against Ireland, the Poms and Wales....and only against the Poms were we better off. Wales were better in every position in the backline. Think about it, how do you play running rugby when your opponent is superior in every slot.
We need to play away from this weakness, and set up attacking play far better....and we need some muscle in the centre. Physical dominance at centre is the hallmark of RWC winners....it's about collisions, not gloriously running through acres of open space.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Dec 2014, 05:45
#16
02 Dec 2014, 05:45#16
 Mozart
Nice comments - but who will provide the physical dominance at center?    
Why were we dominated up front?   It is always easy to make gneral comments - but then a reason for the comments must be idnetified.   
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
02 Dec 2014, 12:27
#17
02 Dec 2014, 12:27#17
 Ya beat the poms so that should count for something ? Everyone likes beating those guys !
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
02 Dec 2014, 12:46
#18
02 Dec 2014, 12:46#18
 We lost 2 Wales!!!!
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
02 Dec 2014, 12:54
#19
02 Dec 2014, 12:54#19
 
I enjoyed your 2nd post on this thread Dave.

I gave it a well deserved "like" ...

Pity about the Coenie post above it though . Probably a typo ... right??

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Dec 2014, 13:02
#20
02 Dec 2014, 13:02#20
 CC
Not to worry - I do not think that Coenie is the first choice starting tighthead - that would eb either Malherbe or Van der Merwe -  Coeni would at best be an impact player later in games.   
Have you noticed that Mozart made statements and when you asked specific questions abou his genral statementts - he ducks and dives.   

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
02 Dec 2014, 13:20
#21
02 Dec 2014, 13:20#21
Wrong Blik as Moz correctly pointed out Redelinghuis was a big disappointment. Coenie was as solid as they come.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
02 Dec 2014, 14:07
#22
02 Dec 2014, 14:07#22
 
To think that useless Coenie is a definite for the world cup sums it up about right.

The failed tour up north isn't just about losing 2 out of the 4 matches ... but more so, the lost opportunities to expose the young talent. Giving them a proper run.

Meyer in his infinite wisdom failed twice over in one tour. Not only did the young talent come away with nothing but in his desperate attempt to secure a whitewash, he's ended up coming home with more questions than he went with.

To add to his misery, he can no longer depend on the "fantastic" Jaque Fourie ... nor the "awesome' Bakkies Botha ... to pull this through ... and his "incredible" captain Jean De Villiers is no longer in the picture.

Talk about being in a flat spin.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Dec 2014, 14:16
#23
02 Dec 2014, 14:16#23
 CC
Jean is indeed a loss - Jacque  Fourie ad Bakkies can be done wthout - thye were bllody useless when  Meyer played them in tests - so I really am not worried about those two being unavailable.   Matte r of fact I would have worried more if they were selected.   
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
02 Dec 2014, 14:43
#24
02 Dec 2014, 14:43#24
 
For sure Mike. They shouldn't have been part of the mix to begin with.

Let's face it, Jean hasn't been playing with the same gusto we saw last year.

Meyer made the mistake of saying Jean would be the Captain right through to the world cup. It bound him to playing him no matter what form he was in.

Now we have a new Captain. Meyer's original choice. He must be pleased.

We also have an untried center pair ... whoever that might be ...

We're not sure who's gonna don the 14 jersey ... nor do we know who he'll play at 6 nor at 7.

We do know that the front row of Beast, Gurthro, Jannie, Coenie, Bismarck and Adriaan are set.

We also know that Victor, Eben and Lood are our locks for next year.

I think we can expect a change at half back. Lambie out ... Morne in ... with HouGat and Reinach out ... and Pienaar and Du Preez in. 

We're as clueless about our wo rld cup squad as we were in 2012.

Who knows what this panic-stricken moron will come up with next?




CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Dec 2014, 15:45
#25
02 Dec 2014, 15:45#25
 CC 
Panick-stricken is the real description fo what our coach has become.   He always thought the players he knew for years would deliver the goods and because he does not want to recognize where they come short - he keeps on selecting them.
One of  his failures is the blind spot abpout the realization that it is entirely normal that the performance of older playes will decline.    So he stuck with ome older players showing major decline in performance  - sine their hayday - bit even since they were selected to playfor the  Springboks recemtly.   \
His favourite captain - Matfield - is  afraid to call line outs to go to him because he really is not competitive in line-outs anymore.   He also c hange his position in th line outs and is now jumping at no 3 - not at 5.    For the rest the line outs mostly go to other players and since Junethere was more than a 30% decline in line out takes by Matfield.   Matfield is the reason why our Tight  5 has not performed as they should have this year.   
If Meyer is foolish enough to bring back Morne  Steyn - h e is overdue for an appoitment with his shrink - he made a mess of the selections of a lot of players - but that would be the biggest ever.
I thought that it was time to dispose of the 2007 WC players - who failed badly in 2010 and 2011 - but Meyer is just not prepared to realize how bad they  have become.   Really a farce and we - the public who keep the game going - have to put up with it - what a bloody farce.        
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Dec 2014, 15:45
#26
02 Dec 2014, 15:45#26
Duplication
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
02 Dec 2014, 16:14
#27
02 Dec 2014, 16:14#27
 
Matfield was a genius. Second to none I know of.

The operative word is "was" ...

Now he's a shriveled up lightweight pretending he's still 25 ...

I'm afraid the golden era we were all dreaming about has been put on hold ... indefinitely.
— END OF THREAD —

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