Combined AB - Bok team

I have started this thread as a barometer to gauge how the two nations rugby talent pools match up. Yes it will only be based on the opinions of the posters on this site, but we are all big boys..and girls, and we should be able to look at it objectively.
If you had to choose a match day 23 out of all current SA and NZ players, regardless of where they ply their trade, what would your team look like?
1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12.13.14.15
16.17.1819.20.21.22.23.
I'll tally the votes once most have given their 2 cents and see where we stand. 

hmmmmm interesting concept, im assuming these guys must have played for either the Boks or the All Blacks??? or is it any saffa or kiwi rugby player???

my team would look like this though and im automatically excluding kiwis not playing in NZ. i will adjust my team accordingly when above question is answered.

1 steven kitshoff, 2 dane coles, 3 owen franks

4 brodie retallick, 5 lady elizabeth

6 duane vermeulen, 7 ardie savea, 8 keirean read

9 aaron smith, 10 aaron cruden

12 SBW, 13 malakai fekitoa

11 julian savea, 15 ben smith, 14 waisale naholo

16 pigmarck du plessis, 17 joe moody, 18 frans malherbe, 19 sam whitelock, 20 sam cane, 21 tarewa kerr barlow, 22 beauden barret, 23 damien de allende

 Sasue
If I look at what both Retallick and Whitelock produced thus far in Super Rugby - not one of them sh ould make a combined team.  I would select Du Toit and Snyman as locks instead of those two.  

Here goes . . . based mainly on Super rugby form . . .

1. Reg Goodes
2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Pieter-Steph du Toit
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Ardie Savea
8. Kieran Read
9. Aaron Smith
10 Beauden Barrett
11 Julian Savea
12 Jan Serfontein
13 Malakai Fekitoa
14 Ben Smith
15 Damian McKenzie

16 Malcolm Marx
17 Beast Mtawarira
18 Vincent Koch
19 Sam Whitelock
20 Jaco Kriel
21 TJ Perenara
22 Lima Sopoaga
23 Waisake Naholo

Hard to believe Jan Serfontein is the best inside centre these two great rugby countries can put up but I honestly can't think of anyone better.

Naruto, don't know if Sunni Bill is even playing Rugby Union this year?

@mikey,

"If I look at what both Retallick and Whitelock produced thus far in Super Rugby - not one of them should make a combined team.  I would select Du Toit and Snyman as locks instead of those two."

my team would look much much different if it was based only on current form.
my team like most national teams are picked on a number of factors, this team of mine is a reflection of that philosophy.

SBW hasnt played a single second of XV rugby with his commitments to 7s, but only a meyer like stooge would not select him in their team.

de allende, lady elizabeth, j savea and fekitoa are no where near in their usual form, but all three are like whitelock and retallick, they always deliver.

bottom line form is not the only prerequisite to national and uzumaki clan selections.

@rooy,

ur right, SBWs not playing !% man rugby this year and its funny u should say that, cos theres huge speculation about his future in NZ rugby.

i was about to post a thread with my two rands worth on why he will be back next year for the Alll Blacks,

Hey if he's available then anyone in their right mind would pick him in a heartbeat but who would be your AB/Bok 2nd 5 if he wasn't available?

@rooy,

"Hey if he's available then anyone in their right mind would pick him in a heartbeat but who would be your AB/Bok 2nd 5 if he wasn't available?"

de allende would get bumped into the starting XV at 12, and mapoe would be on the bench,

SBW has a contract with the NZ rugby union that runs through to the end of 2016. So after 7s he will be available. The final will take place in August and lasts 2 days so he should be available as of September.
SBW to play for ABs after 7s tournament

I'll post my teams later but it will not just be based on form in s18 as players like Etzabeth are out injured & ABs like Retallick & Whitelock have to pace themselves or they will will end up injured like Etzabeth. 

 I always look at current form and not at reputation - the latter is a bad norm for team/squad selection.   However, I made the bad decision to include at times Retallick and Whitelock in my fantasy selections this year and they were bad and I changed them asap - so maybe I am prejudiced against those two.    

The list can be made up of any player, from NZ or RSA. Doesn't matter if they are injured, playing outside Super Rugby, or weather or not they have represented their country. Just currently playing. 
My list would be;1. Kitshof2. Coles3. Franks4. Etzebeth 5. Du Toit6. Kaino (Vermeulen has not been on fire up North) 7. A Savea8. Du Preez (Reid has been very good, but Du Preez is special)9. A Smith (Tempted by Faf, but not good enough under pressure)10. Barrett (Jantjies is a possibility, but also dodgy under pressure)11. Savea (Nadolo has been the best winger, but not from NZ)12. SBW ( I did say any current player, who would leave him out?) 13. Fekitoa14. Nanai 15. Dagg
16. Beast17. Malherbe 18. Strauss19. Retallick20. Kriel21. Jantjies22. B Smith23. Naholo

1. Kitshoff (based on last years form - have not seen him play this year)2. Coles 3. Franks4. Etzebeth 5. Snyman6. Kaino 7. Reid8. Vermuelen9. A Smith 10. Sopoage11. Naholo12. SBW / Ngatai13. Fekitoa14. B Smith15. Dagg
16. Strauss17. Beast18. Malherbe19. Retallick20. Perenera21. Barrett22. A Savea 23. R Ioane

 Not one Bok back makes the combined team backline if SBW is available, and truth to tell absent Vermeulen no loosie either and that's questionable....but the big new plan is for the Boks to play NZ in a wide open game.
There's your problem.
Only Etzebeth and the Beast or Kitshoff would actually strengthen the NZ starting  team. That has to be the lowest number of Boks ever.

 I agree about the backline players - but since there is definite proof to the contrary this year - the two best locks in SH are Etzebeth and Du Toit - with the third best lock being Snyman. 

I picked partly on form in s18 but also took into account proven track record a test level. I have not taken into account style of play but subconsciously I am sure I am picking mobile forwards with skills not just strength.
1. Reg Goodes (form)2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Eben Etzebeth (proven track record, he's been injured since round 5 of the s18)
5. Retallick (Pieter-Steph du Toit has been fantastic at s18 but not really proven durable/effective at test level yet)
6. Jerome Kaino (track record) on form  Jordan Taufua has been fantastic - still green though
7. Sam Cane (track record means he beats out Ardie Savea for now I put Ardie on the bench)
8. Kieran Read
9. Aaron Smith
10 Aron Cruden (mainly track record but he's getting his form back after injury) 
11 Julian Savea (mainly on track record)
12 SBW (track record)
13 Malakai Fekitoa
14 Milner-Skudder (track record)
15 Ben Smith
16 A. Straus (form on s18)
17 Beast Mtawarira 
18 Vincent Koch
19 Sam Whitelock (track record)
20 A. Savea  (form & he will be fantastic from the bench)
21 T-K Barlow (mainly track record)
22 Beauden Barrett because of impact & versatility23 Waisake Naholo (track record last year in s18)

 Jeez Louise Mikey ,I'm glad your not our national selector .A mix of form and latent ability when putting on the jumper is a better criteria ,how does the old adage go about form being temporary ?

"The list can be made up of any player, from NZ or RSA. Doesn't matter if they are injured, playing outside Super Rugby, or weather or not they have represented their country. Just currently playing."

under the guidelines of team selection that bluebok stated on this thread of his, my team would instead look like this...

1 steven kitshoff, 2 dane coles, 3 owen franks

4 brodie retallick, 5 lady elizabeth

6 duane vermeulen, 8 keriean read, 7 ardie savea

9 aaron smith, 10 dan carter

12 maa nonu, 13 SBW

11 julian savea, 15 ben smith, 14 charles piutau

16 pignmarck du plesiss, 17 joe moody, 18 frans malherbe, 19 sam whitelock, 20 sam cane, 21 tarewa kerr barlow, 22 beauden barret, 23 malakai fekitoa

no changes in the forwards from my original line up.

also it might be a bit odd that cruden who is starting in my original team, is no longer there with carter reinstated to 10. barrets ability to cover fullback makes him more valuable a player over cruden and his one trick position.

@mikey,

"I always look at current form and not at reputation - the latter is a bad norm for team/squad selection"

are u saying that if lady elizabeth did not play a single game of spXV in 2016, u would not select him for the Boks if he was to become available???

cos if u recall the 2014 season, thats exactly what happened and i dont remember anyone from SA complaining about lady elizabeths Bok selection then, and rightly so.

IMO, one should not rely on reputation alone, nor should they rely on form alone when it comes to selections, it needs to be balanced, a little from column A and a little from column B.

another perfect example of this is dan carter. at the end of the 2015 spXV, carter on form would have been ranked NZs 5th best flyhalf. cruden, barret, slade and sopoaga were all ahead of him in terms of form.
fastforward to the end of the RWC, and carter who had a stellar RWC campaign gets MOTM in the final and wins player of the year.

food for thought aye???

 Maybe I am a bit problematic in my approach on this issue because of the total hash Meyer made in his selections.  He selected players purely on reputation wi th virtually no regard to present performance.
The one thing I do not believe in is the myth about form being temporary.  The problem is that if that adage is applied you will get stagnation in team selection.   The problem to my mind is that I accept that there are fluctuation in form of any players - but it also depend on how long those fluctuations last.   If a player is out of form for a whole seasons or longer through questionable performances  - then I am afraid I do not support the selections.   
Take for instance a player like Dagg - in 2012 he was brilliant - but since then his form became problematic.   He was dropped from the AB team at times because of the longish dip in form and constant injuries.   At present he is top class again.   I name him as a player - but there are others as well.  Retallick and Whitelock are also more reputation players than present performers - none of them showed anything since the WC and this year in Super Rugby they were not up to the standards they previously achieved.        
        

 Taking into account "The list can be made up of any player, from NZ or RSA. Doesn't matter if they are injured, playing outside Super Rugby, or weather or not they have represented their country. Just currently playing."
I would have to include Carter & Nonu.

 There are much better loosehead props in the country than the feeble Beast ... namely Dylan Smith, Marais and Thomas Du Toit.
Marutlulle to the bench. Class act ... in fact he'd be my Bok hooker.
Strauss is no longer a factor. Neither is Bismarck. Average at best. 
Both Eben and PSDT will walk the All Black side. 
Leaving Vermeulen out is a travesty. I agree with Read at 8. Duane to blindside flank would strengthen the team greatly. 
Jaco Kriel should be a contender for the 6 jersey (openside) ... along with Savea ...  
I don't rate Cruden as anything special. Barrett is the better of the two IMO. 
Anyone leaving McKenzie out of the starting 15 is thicker than thick can be ... Dagg has impressed since his return. Glad to see the lad dazzling us again with some fine form. 
Faff is better than Kerr Barlow ...