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FORUM / RUGBY /  Competing on the high ball.

Competing on the high ball.

Started by sharkbok12 REPLIES270 VIEWS· 30 Nov 2014, 11:14
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sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,286 posts
30 Nov 2014, 11:14
#1
30 Nov 2014, 11:14#1

Meyers Comments:

Maybe we need to change our tactics,’ the Bok coach said sarcastically. 

‘It’s getting to the point where you don’t even want to have players jumping and competing for the ball. Every time it’s a 50/50. Maybe I should tell them [the Bok players] to wait until the opposition has landed first before they compete". 


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It seems to be me the Boks get penalized non-stop in away games for competing on the high ball. What Meyer was saying, is what I was thinking yesterday. 

If the refs are going to take the word of the local crowd over the TMO and/or video replay, we may as well not compete on the high ball. 


Their is no rule that says you cant make contact with the opposition player, as long as you are going for the ball. 

How does a referee interpret if the chasing player intentionally makes contact, or if it is by accident while trying to catch the ball. 


It seems the Boks allways get the s hit end of the stick on these calls. I have seen many of the opposition home teams do exactly the same thing and get away with it. In the Ireland match a defending bok player jumped, and the opposition player went for the ball but knocked the Bok player back in the air at the same time. 


Maybe a Bok player should only jump if they are the first to do so. It would be hard to say that they have infringed if they are the first in the air.


All 3 Sky commentators including a Welsh one said that yesterdays incident was not even a penalty, let alone a yellow card. 


JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
30 Nov 2014, 11:23
#2
30 Nov 2014, 11:23#2
Sharkbok: it is clear that the penalty will be given for any player that makes contact with the player trying to catch the ball while he is in the air. The yellow was unfair but may have been given because both teams had been penalized for this several times & ref sent a clear message. This was a tough call, Hendricks did not show intent to injure the player.
Boks had chances to win the game but could not do so - the yellow card played a part but so did the fact that Boks played several players that are not first team.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,286 posts
30 Nov 2014, 11:33
#3
30 Nov 2014, 11:33#3
Justwin, are you sure about making contact is penalizable?How would you be certain on who made contact with whom if they are both in motion? Is the benefit of the doubt allways given to the defending team? 
If so, then surely it is not worth competing in the air if the defending team has a jumper in the air. 
I did not mention this as the reason for the loss, but it is not the first time this year it has happened to the Boks.  The Habana incident earlier in year vs OZ was a far bigger impact on the game. 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
30 Nov 2014, 11:37
#4
30 Nov 2014, 11:37#4
 Skarkbok: what I am saying is the refs seem to be penalizing any contact. It used to be it was fine to make contact as long as you are competing for the ball. Now it looks like any contact could result in a penalty. That's why Meyer made his comment. If the refs keep calling it this way players will have to adjust.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,286 posts
30 Nov 2014, 11:49
#5
30 Nov 2014, 11:49#5
Just_win, I expect Meyer will be looking for confirmation from the IRB on how this law had changed, or is it just the referee interpretation has changed. Either way, the teams should be informed at the start of the season of any law changes. Surely the referees cant "adapt" the laws during the course of the season.
It is clear the Boks think they can compete in the air, but we get penalized this year over and over. 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
30 Nov 2014, 11:57
#6
30 Nov 2014, 11:57#6
 I agree.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
30 Nov 2014, 11:58
#7
30 Nov 2014, 11:58#7

We are being outwitted and are too stupid to cop onto the fact that teams know they can exploit the law which protects the receiver.


The plan is so simple it is almost laughable, when SA kick, jump high, they will touch you, make sue you fall hard and milk it for everything it is worth.


In the last few games we had Strauss touch Kearney who already had his weight going backwards, he fell and card, Habana touched two players and they got penalties, and yesterday the same thing.


Stop kicking the ball, or alternatively stop touching the player in the air.  

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
30 Nov 2014, 15:31
#8
30 Nov 2014, 15:31#8
 Alot of the decisions from these NH refs seem to favour the Home Sides
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,286 posts
16 Dec 2014, 20:32
#9
16 Dec 2014, 20:32#9

Boks livid with ref

Heyneke Meyer feels that Cornal Hendricks’s dubious yellow card killed any chance of a Springbok comeback at the Millennium Stadium on Saturday, reports JON CARDINELLI in Cardiff.

The 12-6 defeat is only South Africa’s second to Wales in the history of the game. The Boks are hurting after such a disappointing result and performance. The players and the coach have taken responsibility for their mistakes and poor decision-making. However, mixed in with the feelings of disappointment is a fair amount of frustration.

Yet again, this is down to a shocking refereeing decision that influenced the final result. The Boks felt hard done by in a Test against Australia in Perth this past September, when George Clancy penalised Duane Vermeulen for a legitimate hit, and then sent Bryan Habana to the sin bin for an innocuous tackle in the second half. In Cardiff on Saturday, it was John Lacey who got it wrong when he sent Hendricks from the field for a challenge well within the laws.

Meyer said afterwards that he wasn’t allowed to criticise referees. And yet his comments and tone were far from flattering. He invited journalists to read between the lines.

‘Maybe we need to change our tactics,’ the Bok coach said sarcastically. ‘It’s getting to the point where you don’t even want to have players jumping and competing for the ball. Every time it’s a 50/50. Maybe I should tell them [the Bok players] to wait until the opposition has landed first before they compete.

‘We are not an ill-disciplined team,’ he continued. ‘We had the best disciplinary record in the Rugby Championship, and I always coach players to play within the laws. When the ball goes up in the air, it’s a contest. But maybe it’s too much of a grey area at the moment.

‘I’m not allowed to comment on referees, and I don’t want to make excuses. But it was a big blow to lose our captain [Jean de Villiers to injury in the 56th minute], and then get a call like that. That was pretty much it. We were six points behind at that stage, and looking to close the gap. But when you go a man down you have to be more defensive and it’s hard to build any momentum on attack.’

The bad call aside, Meyer admitted the Boks weren’t at their best against Wales. He lamented the individual errors on the day, and also suggested a lack of experience impacted on the display.

‘We always said this tour was going to test our character and our depth,’ he said. ‘There was a lot of pressure in that second half, and we had lost Jean. I had faith in Victor Matfield, the vice-captain, but losing Jean meant we had to bring on some youngsters. Some are new to this level, and some of the combinations, for example the back three, was new.

‘The result is disappointing, but I think we got some of the answers we wanted. It was a good experience for those players who hadn’t toured the northern hemisphere before, and I am satisfied that we have bolstered our depth.’

Wales snap losing streak


... (meant to place this on the Law change thread). 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
16 Dec 2014, 21:24
#10
16 Dec 2014, 21:24#10
 OK, aparently the margins on the other thread is stuffed. This was my post on the other thread about this particular law:
Sharkbok, the laws are clear and everybody knows the laws. It is however possible that it is not all that clear or that there is a possibility of misinterpretation. It is for that reason that there is the possibility of asking for clarification, as I have already pointed out. I have given you two examples where SA has asked for clarification. In one example a decision was made and we were notified. In another there appeared to have been a need for a law change. In that case they gave a clarification, which was communicated to all the unions with an effective date until the clarification was written into law.
As for the Hendricks issue, it was clearly an interpretation of the incident by the referee that was particularly harsh. The problem is that, even if you amend the laws to be purely black or white, you would always have a situation where you will have a human who has to make the decision. In another game, Hendricks would probably not even have been penalised. Sh!t happens.
The law about competing in the air is clear and has been for some time. It is one of the most simple laws in the law book but it always causes a lot of crap. This is the law (Law 10 - Foul Play) as it stands:
10.4 Dangerous play and misconduct
(e) Dangerous tackling. 
A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously.Sanction: Penalty kick
A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the opponent’s neck or head is dangerous play.Sanction: Penalty kick
A ‘stiff-arm tackle’ is dangerous play. A player makes a stiff-arm tackle when using a stiff arm to strike an opponent.Sanction: Penalty kick
Playing a player without the ball is dangerous play.Sanction: Penalty kick
A player must not tackle an opponent whose feet are off the ground.Sanction: Penalty kick
You can compete for the ball in the air but you are not allowed to tackle another player in the air. It is up to the ref to decide when it was a matter of competing or tackling. 
It has been like that for ages. Unfortunately my older law books are on another laptop, and I would have confirmed it directly from the law books if you wanted, but I am very sure that that law has not changed in ages.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 Dec 2014, 21:40
#11
16 Dec 2014, 21:40#11
 The oaks must wake up. Firstly there is no adapting to a bent ref. You play within the rules and only three penaties later does one realise you are being illegally pinged. If its not being carded for contact in the air it will be something else. Root cause bent refs. Main target Boks. What about mcaaw's high tackle on Louw that lead to a serious injury. What happened. Was justice done NO. Turn the tables and say a Bok had tackled high like that. Yellow at a very minimum! Result test lost. Result re OZ test - Boks lost test. Result against Wales. Same. Yaaaawn
Problem is bent refs - End of story. The rest is ignoring reality. But as its not right to crit the ref who is always only human lets blame the players and coach.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
16 Dec 2014, 22:08
#12
16 Dec 2014, 22:08#12
 The only law changes i am aware of in recent years are: 1.ball kicked dead, scrum from the place were the ball was kicked. This law change was made after 95 RWC where SA used the tactic to receive posesion again after kickoff. 2.Lifting in the line outs. It's being allowed now, can't remember when it changed. 3. The team kicking out to touch after a penalty gets the throw in at the line-out. This changed in the late 90's when Markgraaf was bok coach. 4. The corner flagpost is not touch anymore, the chalk line is the only "out"Things that were not chsnged: 1. You are still supposed to be behind the kicker with kick in. 2. Scrummy must put the ball in straight at the scrum. 
The rest of the IRB directives are guidelines to apply the laws. BS. ALL THE LAWS SHOULD BE APPLIED EQUALLY BY REFEREES. These directives and interpratations causes doubt and is applied unfairly. It is hight ime that teams should challenge poor decisions in the coarts where the foal ups occured and claim for damages. I know its difficult for refs, but the sooner refs are being held properly accountable, the sooner they will decline reffing games where they know their personal bias might influence them I still believe no decent ref will ever influence an outcome on purpose, but I also believe bias plays a huge role in officiating.  Either a ref is holding back a bit to prevent allegations of bias, or he doesn'tgive a shit and feed his bias. Long story short, the laws allow for too much intrepatation and it ruens too many games. It should stop.There were no changes in laws recently,  only changes in the application thereof. This tend to favour some teams and hamper others. I can't wait for a union to test this subjective applicstion of laws in a court of law. Won't be surprised if we see it soon.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
16 Dec 2014, 22:09
#13
16 Dec 2014, 22:09#13
Oops Double essay! 
— END OF THREAD —

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