Damian or Esterhuizen?

With some of the criticism that has been directed towards Esterhuizen, I decided to go back to Damian's best test of the year, the second England test, to see if we can find anything in his game to support the demotion of Esterhuizen. As it was, I found out quite a bit, though nothing that will leave the Clever Mike's of the world smiling. 

Damian De Allende (12)

Pass: 6

Run: 16

Metres Run: 113

Clean Breaks: 1

Defenders Beaten: 6

Offloads: 1

Tackles: 8/1

Turnovers: 2

HALF 1

00:58 - Lineout (ENG): E12 brought down by S13, by the feet. S12 engages ruck with no effect. Gets mildly cleaned to the side. Clean ball for England.

03:25 - Ruck: England scrum in Bok 22. Second phase. E10 gets taken to ground. E9 has a POD (E5.E4.E6) come around the corner. POD come up flat, as E9 throws a cut pass to E6, the outer forward. S12 intercepts and runs a very long way just outside England 22. England turnover ball. 

04:41 - Scrum (RSA): Boks with a trick play. S9 to S10 on the openside, S10 throws long arcing pass to S12 on the blindside. S12 passes short to S13, close beside him. 

04:45 - Defence: S11 gathers grubbered ball by S13. He burrows to ground as S12 approaches. S12 loiters over the ruck, but is soon cleaned out. 

12:05 - Lineout (ENG): E9 flat to E10. E10 out flat to E12. E12 engages the defence with E13 close beside him. He fakes a short ball to E13 for a crashball, but passes back to E10 who loops around. E13 has S13 sucked into the contact area. S13 tackles E10 well, but he offloads to E11. E11 doesn't have control of the ball, but flips it over S11 to E14. S12 is too late to make a tackle. Once that ball gets out, England have the upper hand. [TRY]

15:10 - Attack: S9 throws a bobbly pass to S15, on the shortside. S15 gathers and passes flat and short to S12. S12 aims for space outside of E10 near the touchline. E12 attempts to take him high, but loses momentum, taking a little hit to the face from S12's raised elbow. He is brought to ground by E14. E12 rips the ball out of his grip, as he goes to ground. E12 penalized for knock forward. [PEN]

19:46 - Lineout (RSA): Boks attempt maul, bail. S2 out to S10. S10 takes it to the line. S12 is first to arrive at ruck and guard it. 

22:02 - Attack: S12 hovers around the ruck from England's side, is guided away by E9. 

22:18 - Attack: S9 passes left to POD. Quick recycle S10 from the base throws flat to S12 on the shortside, who cuts back inside, away from the movement of the defence. Turns in the low tackle of E4 and hunches into the low shoulder butt of E3. Brought down by E4 thereafter. 

25:19 - Attack: Boks field restart. In their 22, S10 to S12. He runs at E5 and is brought down comfortably. 

29:26 - Restart: S12 fields restart. Backs into defenders and is driven forward by S5 out of the Bok 22. 

30:36 - Lineout (RSA): 5 man lineout; Ball off the top. S9 flat and wide to S12. He runs into space, turns and falls to ground in the contact of E8. Is turned over. England attack wide and kick deep into Bok 22.

34:12 - Scrum (ENG): E9 wide to E12. E12 in face of defence short to E13. E13 runs between S10 and S12. S12 leans into the tackle on one foot, his right. Very weak footing and body position. He ends up falling all the way down E13 without negating his momentum. He ends up behind the tackle zone and retreats into the line on the shortside. 

34:56 - Defence: England throw over the Bok line wide to E8, S12 was under the arcing pass, but moves out to meet the carrier. He takes him low, and falls off the tackle and ends up with the E8 going to ground willingly for a quick recycle. 

35:35 - Lineout (ENG): E14 engages S10, beats him on the outside, draws in S12, passes out to E13. E13 brought down strongly by S14. S12 attempts to attack ruck, gets cleared aside by E2. 

36:42 - Lineout (ENG): England hitup in midfield. S10 is tackler, as E12 is brought down head-on. S12 attempts to attack ruck but is swatted aside. S12 retreats into the line a pillar, then guard as S3 enters ruck. He was retreating before whistle blows, setting the line behind the ruck, with plenty of space for England. 

38:39 - Restart: S12 gathers restart in Bok 22. Attempts to turn in the tackle, but is caught and brought to ground by E15. Clean ball. 

41:03 - Lineout (ENG): E9 out to E12. E12 has E13 come up close outside him, this pulls S10 and S12 together. He passes back to E10 coming around the back of them. 

HALF 2

40:08 - Restart: S12 joins maul after S4 fields restart. 

41:10 - From lineout, S12 joins ruck. Protects from possible counter ruckers. 

41:16 - S9 throws out to S14, but pass is intercepted. S12 chases carrier. Image breaks up. I assume S12 grabbed a previous carrier high. Boks are on the attack wide, deep in their half.

41:45 - S12 darts out wide, attempts to beat E15. Gets brought down near the touchline. 

42:23 - S12 burrows into tackler out wide who takes him high. He yet again exposes the ball for a strip. Makes a little ground. 

50:57 - Restart: S12 fields restart, runs into E20, several forwards drive him forward. 

52:10 - Scrum (RSA): S9 flat to S10, S10 to S12. S12 passes along to S13. 

54:53 - England breakout down the touchline after S14 exposes the outside by rushing out the line and failing to stop E15 passing out to E11. At ruck, S12 hovers around and soon takes up position as guard. S18 takes E20 around the waist as S12 attempts to strip the ball. He doesn't succeed. As E20 goes to ground, S12 is cleared away by E2. 

58:20 - Scrum (RSA): Deep in Bok 22. S9 flat to S12. Takes it up, brought down immediately by E9. Quick ball. 

61:42 - Scrum (RSA): England 22. S9 runs at E7, passes flat to S12, S12 runs between E12 and E13 advancing in front of tryline. He has S6 and S22 drive him a little further as he himself twists in the tackle to break free. Boks penalized holding on at breakdown. [PEN]

63:14 - Defence: S12 grabs E7 around the shoulders, lowers his left arm to his waist and Swivels him to ground for minimal gain. 

64:27 - Defence: England chip over the top into space behind the defensive line. S12 tracks back to ball, S10 is coming up from the back to gather the loose ball. S12 reaches out which encourages S10 to leave the ball to him. S12 knocks the ball backwards as E12 is right behind to kick the now loose ball away from him. Fortunately, S22 gathers the loose ball and takes it up to settle play down for the Boks. 

64:38 - Attack: S9 wide to S10 wide to S12. S12 behind S8 to S15, who kicks deep downfield. 

67:28 - Restart: S12 fields restart, steps the rush of E20, gets brough down shortly afer by E13 and E5. Ball was ripped from S12, but the Boks regather. 

68:10 - Lineout (ENG): England ball off the top. E9 wide flat to E12. E12 short flat to E13. E13 gets on he outside shoulder of S12, as S12 falls into the tackle to take his legs. S12 wraps his legs up well making him fall forward, allowing the Boks to attack the ball strongly. 

69:52 - Attack: S9 taps and goes, which sparks Bok attack down the touchline. S12 screams for the ball, S9 goes deep wide to him. He is at two minds whether to pass or run. He engages the defence who are rushing up, pushing inside out. He cuts against the flow of pressure to a little space in the disjointed England line, steps inside E7 cutting across the field burrows into tackle of three Englishmen as he goes to ground. 

70:36 - Attack: Boks going through the phases, getting their forwards to attack the fringes. S18 offloads in the tackle short to S12 who burrows into the tackle of E12. He rolls forward a couple times. Nearly loses the ball as he rolls over it, squashing it under his arm pit.

72:29 - Attack: S9 to S10 to S15 to S12. S12 to S22 without engaging any defenders. 

72:58 - Attack: Cleans ruck after S7 carries it up. 

73:58 - Defence: Bok lineout overthrow. England gather loose ball and attack wide. S12 cuts across the field to bring down E14 but misses. Takes up guard position on the shortside. 

75:23 - Lineout (ENG): England maul. Attack with flat ball in the middle of the field. S14 almost intercepts but knocks on. Boks scramble now, S12 cutting across to engage E23. S22 cuts off the inside, so E23 has no choice but to charge into S12. E23 gets initial momentum, but S12 drags him sideways, with a little assistance from S22. S12 and S14, in tandem pressure E21 from quick ball out.

77:56 - Defence: England win penalty at scrum. E23 taps and goes, breaks around the scrum to the openside, passes draws S10 throws to E12. E12 draws S12 and switches with E22 who draws S11 and passes out to E14 out wide. England deep in Bok 22.

Not worth reading at all - slanted comments are worthless 

What test are you referring anyway?   If you want o assess anything you must take one test in Jiune against another test in the same series to make comments on comparison.

So take either the first or second June test against England and compare same with the third June test.   Try again and do not be stupid - bird brain.   

Getting personal, the waving of a white flag. I implore you for your own sake to relax because you've been increasingly flustered of late. Had you read, you'd have noted I said 2nd test of the England series. I chose that because it was his best test. Furthermore, you say slanted? Prove it. You make too many bold assertions for someone who produces so little. If I have made an error, point it out. If you know something is wrong, then you must know why. 

No I was just reacting to your comment and what you constantly allege against me = so stick to  what I wrote above insofar as comparison is concerned.       

The Information is satisfactory. We can learn a lot from Damian in this test, his best test of the year. It's comparable to all of his other performances; A good sample size. 

So you pick two tests and then use it for comparison purposes without any regard to the opposing team and opposing players.   Please do not take it as an insult - but it is an insult of intelligence of you.    

So, I must now cover the first test? How does that make the second, his best test, irrelevant. I have posted everything Damian produced in his best test of the year and you have done nothing to refute any of it. Instead you are trying to wriggle your way out of having to deal with the topic. As it stands, Esterhuizen is much the better 12. Rassie is a smart man for dropping Damian. 

I said yo can choose which of the two tests you want to use.   Your choice .   

His game hasn't changed. I took screenshots of certain things like how he holds the ball in contact and his awkward body position in contact. He went into a hit up by E13 on one foot. Another instance it looked like he had bowed legs; he ended up falling to the ground - like the pole dancing tackle on Frans in 2014. He often does a little hop before cutting inside. It's incredibly predictable. Nearly two years since his Kuridrani disaster and he is still the same. Tragic. 

Mozart

Listen dimness use full stats and stop being the most idiotic member ever,  

Mozart

Listen dimness use full stats and stop being the most idiotic member ever,  

AO

This thread shows why you have zero evaluation ability due to prejudice and the example  set by the fraud Mozart.   You surely do not refer to the game where Fat Fransie twice landed on his backside on the grass after trying to tackle De Allende?        

AO

This thread shows why you have zero evaluation ability due to prejudice and the example  set by the fraud Mozart.   You surely do not refer to the game where Fat Fransie twice landed on his backside on the grass after trying to tackle De Allende?        

Flip a rusty coin....

This thread shows that you cannot provide one tangible piece of evidence to disprove anything I have put forth. Which means you support Damian in spite of the evidence against him. That's personal bias. I've had a good look at these two. I went to find something positive in his game. I found little.

You claim what I have written about this game is wrong. State where this is so, and why. If you know I am wrong, then you'll know why. This is Damian's best test of the year, it should be easy. Its actually statistically one of his best tests ever, if not the best. Yet you can't form one reasonable defence? There's something very wrong with that. 

AB De Villiers is available.....

Why not Ruhan Nel, at 6'3' and 101kg locked and loaded has to be a better bet than the garden gnomes currently available.

If you at strike %...tries to tests:-

Danie Gerber 79%

Fury 44%

Marius Joubert 30%

Kriel 28%

JDV 24%

F Steyn 10%

De Allende 10%

It fades into comparisons...De Allende is all hype and non-delivery...MUST GO.

Esterhuizen and Am seem to be a good call to build...Kriel is a product of my old school so I'm a bit biased but common sense tells me this is the way to experiment and go...give them a fair chance ...it might be the diamond amongst the coal.

Listen dim BSter.   You constantly come up with real BS.   Now suddenly tries is the only thing that counts.  That is without regard to a lot of BS spreading and that  is a joke too.   In how many tests did each of the above centers play?   How many tests were starting tests and how many were the players playing from the bench/    How many tries were scored playing in different positions? 

Your evalutions are as per normal worthless and a farce as well.   You bring in Fat Fransie - whom you supported all out for years because he was in the 2007 WC and who failed after 2012 so badly that  a real coach called him no center at all. 

Your string of centers all played when there was a backline strategy -  that vanishes totally under Meyer and Coetzee and when coaching deteriorated into a farce,   So start thinking for a change.

Anyway the BS spreader must stop thinking  in the past - what is applicable at present - ie players still playing and that is where we must in reality.   The number is limited so make your choice - is it still  Fat Fransie and De Jongh as the present center combination?

Seb

I do not like the present available centers - but virtually all of them, is problematic and the situation is to select the best of a bad lot.   

Why I defend De Allende is that there are so many falsified BS about him spread by Mozart and co - if one criticize players it must be based on fact - not manufactured and falsified stories.

Coming back to the present situation - Esterhuizen played in 4 tests this year - three of which were lost by the Springboks.  In all of them he showed defensive deficiencies and in the last test he was successful in making 2 good line breaks out of 14 carries.  the rest of the carries were crashballing and not very effective crashballing at that,   He has limitations and those will be exploited to the full by opposing teams.   Fact is they are already do so.

I cannot see what direction Erasmus will be taking in future insofar as the centers are concerned an the present debate based mostly on prejudiced rubbish is worthless.     

Of course, tries do count but so do try assists and by try assists I don't necessary mean the last passer of the ball but to those who initiated the move that resulted in the try but nevertheless it tells tell a wider picture. I was initially a fan of Damian and so was a lot of guys including Pieter Muller but without offense to those die-hards who still believe he is part of the solution I cannot see it.

He's had his chances and although there has been the very occassional good name...he is not up to the standard.

Of course, tries do count but so do try assists and by try assists I don't necessary mean the last passer of the ball to the try scorer but to those who initiated the move that resulted in the try but nevertheless it tells tell a wider picture. I was initially a fan of Damian and so was a lot of guys including Pieter Muller but without offense to those die-hards who still believe he is part of the solution I cannot see it.

He's had his chances and although there has been the very occassional good name...he is not up to the standard.

None of the above!!

Neither of them are test quality centres. They both have issues defensively. Both have failed at test level so why persist with them?

It's time to move on and give other prospects a shot.

Franscois Venter is solid defensively and can at least create something. Or how about Ruan Nel as Denny suggested? Both are far better options and will improve our midfield dramatically in comparison to either of these two.

Bringing Jan Serfontein back into the mix is our only real option.

I can remember how Serfontin was ripped apart y Mozart and co when he actually played for the Springboks and his Mozart name was Steppie.   So what is the difference here  it I a question which of the centers they hate least and hat became their argument.

Most of the rubbish Mozart and co planted on site is based on that norm.   I defend all players they malign based on prejudice and for that urpose they used lies and disinformation to an alarmin extent.

My problem is that we do not really have top class centers and the only way is that each of us can have their own choices - but let at least be honest about the basis on our selections.   I am sure that  Erasmus will make his decision based on sound principles when he announces the squad for the Australasian tour.       

You've got some gall calling anyone a liar. You are caught up in lies of your own everyday! What have I written that is a lie? I find it strange that you know for a fact I am wrong but can't reference anything in-game. That's very odd. How can someone not know these things. I cite a lot of references and bring alot of material to the surface. In this thread I posted everything Damian did, the good and the bad. You can't be more objective then that. Then when I am criticized I ask you some questions to prompt a discussion, but you can't answer anything.

Just be honest, you defend Damian because you are emotionally attached to him, nothing more. You probably attached yourself to him when he was being compared with Frans. You become bitterly angry at the mere mention of Frans and almost always throw Damian into the debate. Always a duality. I see it alot in your posts about other players.

Getting personal, the waving of a white flag.

Good to know, SA people on this board have reached that point already.

The case for Ruhan Nel as the Bok 13

He has the height and build. He's a competitor. He'll think on his feet and is used to a fast moving quick thinking environment. We have an abundance of average centers, pick and choose  one above the other truth be told they are all about the same value, Nel will add to the dynamic of the backline, the others won't. Watch him play, he simply loves being out there and being in the thick of things....a competitor, the type the Boks lack.

What we have lacked at 13 is a thinker. The fan don't value defence and rugby IQ at 13, the preferred route is to find a runner. They never even think of distribution. Just frantic running. It never works. 

I'm not sold on Nel, but rather try him than a proven failure. We waste so much time returning to past failures. It beggars belief that we could face New Zealand and Australia with Damian and Kriel. 

It beggars belief that we could face New Zealand and Australia with Damian and Kriel. 

Now we have the two most arrogant posters gong on about players.   They have a long history of covering up BS performances of their favoured players and spouting disinformation on site about their pet hates - so I take it from whom their latest comments come. 

Mozart

Just a question - Louw was so disgustingly poor in the last two tests - why no objective criticism from you?

Moz

Rassie is starting to remind me of Coetzee and Meyer....do you get that as well?

To Meyer's credit, it wasn't apparent who the next gen where going to be in most instances. I think only Pollard, Eben, Willie and Duane truly stuck. So many players let him down. 

Rassie has something emerging. We're starting to see a team emerge. He is threatening to undo it all by going back to what hasn't worked. If this is how quickly Rassie feels pressure, imagine him being in 2006, or in Meyer's shoes. That's what always worried me, can Rassie handle being the main man? I hope he proves he proves me wrong. 

He's got to use a wild card , Kriel and De Allende are not a wildcard, but a certain disaster perhaps not so much against Australia but NZ...not a chance even on a lucky day against the All Blacks...yes Esterhuizen and Am are a risk but might prove right combo eventually...there is always a chance because they have played together successfully with the Sharks and know each other and still have to graduate in International rugby...it's not a foolproof solution but we cannot keep 2 centres that are proven inadequate (well not up to scratch). Repeating the same old mistakes in the past...I think it calls for brave decisions and hopefully progress at least can be made and yes even if we lose...it calls for intelligent experiment or calculated risk...nothing ventured, nothing gained.

If it works, then suddenly the praises from the fence sitters and sychophants will be bleated out on this forum...if it doesn't then you will hear squawks and squeals coming these cliques on Ruckers.

Building takes time and patience and experiment, something that Saffers have sadly lacked in the past and are terrible panickers and not risk tolerant...a huge negative and weakness in our fearful conservatism.

Actually, it's quite exciting...I've always thrived on risk...it's the oomph of life itself.

Happy Idiots Day to you;   Erasmus start thus far is virtually on par with that of the useless Meyer and he is bound not to be as bad as Meyer was in his last year as a coach.    He builds teams - Meyer never did while SPRINGBOK Co ach - big difference.   And the role of the Bulls franchise - in destroying the prospects of White so as to make Meyer the Springboks coach was foiled in 2008 - because some  of the other franchises would not accept such intrigue and rubbish/

So the Bulls and Cheetahs united with Cheeky Watson and some other smaller Unions to get rid of White - and then Watson - after using the Bulls and the Cheetahs for their own purposes - turned around and would not support the appointment of Meyer.   That should have taught you lot of people idolizing Meyer that intrigue does not have the result aimed at - and you should at least be honest enough to realize he was part of poisonous   plot to get rid of  White.

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