Dave - AE did nothing on Saturday that DDA wouldn't have

Yes, the pass to Koble was perfect - but it was AE chasing play on Kolisi's break from halfway, and being there to pass to Kolbe, that made that try. Manie just beat him to the ruck and did the slightest bit of clearing out, AE actually reading the moment and pausing briefly to allow Manie to clear out, then winging the pass to Kolbe. But before passing, he runs a nice diagonal at 4 ABs, drawing the attention of three of them. You actually see him look up, see Kolbe, instantly decide that he's gonna draw as many AB defenders in as possible, does so, and that puts Kolbe into the corner. You will never in your life see DDA engineer an attack like that. NEVER!!!!!!

In the try AE scored, he kept up with Willemse and Williams, to take the final carry...for a try that happened at full pace, form the Bok 10m line. I don't think that DDA in his prime would have had the pace for that.

No? You show me where DDA has kept up with play to that extent, making tries. It doesn't exist.

Outside of being km/h deficient, DDA doesn't have the initiative required to remain involved with plays that end up in these types of scores. It's why he so rarely features in Bok try highlight packages. He simply doesn't have the instinct to make the quick decisions, the skill to execute on those decisions or the pace required to keep up with the consequences of those decisions. AE is faster, stronger, and way smarter than DDA. The difference is palpable.

Oh what utter crap DA has been doing all that all his career it’s why Rassie invested in him

AE had a good game but nothing special. Apart from that great pass everything he did was all about the power game nothing subtle or creative - exactly like DA

The whole point of this debate is that we wanted to know if Willemse could change the way 12’s operate at 12 and he more than proved he could with those dancing feet and that desire to attack space not contact

AE gives us exactly what DA does and that’s a fact - Willemse gives us something different and that’s what we want - it’s exciting

We need to evolve and continue to impose ourselves physically which we are the best at but combine that with Brown ball

The only way to do that is with the likes of Hanekom and Roos in the pack coupled with the likes of Williams / vd Bergh / Pead / Sacha / Libbok / Willemse / Hooker / David Kriel / Moodie / JJ / Henco v Wyk / Kolbe / Arendse / Edwil / Horn / Green / Fassi / Jordan Hendrikse in the backs

Okay, Dave

Post a single instance where DDa keeps up with a winger to score a try from 60M out.

Every Bok try is only. ALL of them.

Show me!

I’m not sure why you are reading so much into AE backing up and scoring a try?

He hardly keeps up with Williams, he comes from deeper

But I’m not sure what your point is - it’s the basics of rugby being a support player

I’m not going to trawl through footage looking for DA running in support as it’s meaningless

My point is DA and AE play the same game - the power game - but both have good skills to be creative but their DNA is all about the power - it’s very obvious

So I see no point in replacing DA with a 31 year old like for like when you have a brilliantly creative 27 year old that has just proved he is the answer at 12 moving forward

Its that simple for me - Willemse at 12, Fassi at 15 moving forward

They both play a power game…but

AE reads the play Dud doesn’t

AE can offload and pass instinctively, Dud is a wooden passer

AE tries to avoid the tackler….Dud is programmed to crash into the first tackler.

AE is bigger than Dud….that should persuade you Dave,

They both play a power game…but

AE reads the play Dud doesn’t - bullshit DA reads the play perfectly you don’t spend a decade as the Bok 12 incumbent not being able to read play

AE can offload and pass instinctively, Dud is a wooden passer - bullshit, ex players are on record saying DA is the best passer in the squad. We have seen very little offloading from AE at test level

AE tries to avoid the tackler….Dud is programmed to crash into the first tackler. - absolute rubbish, AE is less equipped to attack space than DA is. Nothing about AE looks to avoid contact - he simply not equipped

AE is bigger than Dud….that should persuade you Dave, not much in their size difference, only reason AE is slightly heavier is that he is much taller

Plum

Go and watch the tries De Allende scored and you would find at least 10 where it happened, He si a much faster player with Ball sense which is totally absent in the case of Esterhuizen. Just have a look at the try scored by De Allende scored in the WC 2023 match against France.

Esterhuizen scored 2 tries and both of which were created by other players giving him a virtual; open tryline - in hsitry on S aturfday he only had to beat the scrummie. De Allende tries often is scored by cutting through defenders in some cases even 3 or for such.

By the way dimwit De Allendxe scored two much more difficult tries against the AB's more in the Willemse style of scoriing the one on Saturday than Esterhuizen's gift try.

The forwards and whole team dominate the match on Friday and even then Esterhuizen performed sartisfacotry - but not "godlike" like you claimed.

In the URC level where the team is under pressure Esteerrhuizen routinely failed in performances. That is a fact too.

Mozart

Yoiu remain a joke.

AE reads the play Dud doesn’t

If AE reads the play eehy is he routinely out opf p[osiiton and h y is he used in tests as a loosie if what you say is true, I waqtch his performances both on test and URC level and Ester huizen is one of th e dumbnest players I ever see playing in backlines.

So happy rug by idiots day to you.

Happy old ANC supporter day to you….do they have an Old Boys Club?

"I’m not going to trawl through footage looking for DA running in support as it’s meaningless"

See you don't see true value in it. That is why you rate DDA. You have no concept of the difference between the two because the differences that matter elude you.

DDA never keeps up with play. The try Kolbe scored would never have been made if DDA was on the park.

The try that AE scored would never have happened either because DDA is incapable of keeping up with the other backs. His lack of pace is well documented.

Now, keep pretending that it's too much work to go and find evidence.

You're not fooling anyone.

Oh what utter crap - DA has been a brilliant servant to Bok rugby and I completely get why Rassie chose him over AE as he is the more gifted player

Both power players first and foremost

But given you wanted footage I’ve just watched the reminder of just how damn good he is. Plenty of examples of pure power play, great stepping, a good few tries scored as a support runner and the icing on the cake was a great break followed by long pass to Kolbe who scores

All of which proves how little you know and how rugby ignorant you are. DA is a class athlete

Here is your evidence - watch and weep

https://youtu.be/BZOfl09T3xE?si=zXq49J1FR9e8YwPY

He's played around 6000 minutes of test rugby, yet half of that 8 minute video consists of provincial highlights. That tells the actual story.

No it showcases his skill set - he does not lose the ability to execute a step or run a support line when he plays in a test

Glad to be of service

"No it showcases his skill set - he does not lose the ability to execute a step or run a support line when he plays in a test"

...yet he doesn't do it.

Are you suggesting that DDA is sabotaging the Boks?

Makes sense

No, he's suggesting he's playing as instructed by the coaching team according to the game plan for the day.

Interesting

One would think that the coaching team would want him being there for a 10 or 13 who has made a break, to pass to players when there is an overlap and clear try scoring possibility, to not kick advantageous possession away meaninglessly, to breach the advantage line by switching up hits and steps...you know, the types of things that are ALWAYS a part of any gameplan.

But let's dig into this more.

Okay, Dave is also saying that DDA and AE are the same player.

Meaning that you would use them the same way. The are both just power players. You wouldn't pick one for one thing and the other for another.

Why then is DDA never used in the way that we saw AE used on Saturday?

They're the same player but we'll use DDA when we want to crash ball and AE when we want to be creative and score more tries. Even though, according to flacid Dave, DDA is more capable.

At some point, the levels of mental gymnastics at play becomes comical. The justifications and explanations contradict themselves and don't reconcile what we see with our own eyes...nor what the scoreboard or statistics tell us.

DDA is closing in on 100 test now.

Simply go a look at every Springbok try scored for the last 5 years and how very rarely he's involved in putting points in the board. So I guess the game plan is "Damien, we don't want you to be involved with scoring points"

Stop hiding behind weather, gameplan, myths about "talent" and simply look at the evidence.

Because Esterhuizen is never selected to start in the big pressure games

But more to the point when he does play for the Boks he plays it like DA anyway.

Its not like everytime AE plays a test he rips through defences attacking space or throwing loads of great passes or offloads

He plays the power game just like DA does

You seem to be implying we see something different from AE over DA when he plays for the Boks, which is certainly not the case as evidenced on the weekend - despite the side playing a more expansive game

As the video shows you are speaking shit that he does not run support lines or make great passes, simply isn’t the case. DA is a class act and a big part of the reason the Boks have done so well

Good sides simply have to have a good inside centre

"But more to the point when he does play for the Boks he plays it like DA anyway."

Rubbish - any person with eyes can see that's not the case.

"Its not like everytime AE plays a test he rips through defences attacking space or throwing loads of great passes or offloads"

Rubbish - AE hs a much high run/pass ration. Look at the stats. The evidence doesn't lie.

"You seem to be implying we see something different from AE over DA when he plays for the Boks, which is certainly not the case as evidenced on the weekend - despite the side playing a more expansive game"

More rubbish - I provided you two perfect examples of AE doing things that DDA never does for the Boks. You have failed to provide any evidence to the contrary.

The video you provided is a highlight reel of 12 year career. Now, be a good tit and go and find him doing this for the Boks...at test level, where it matters. You can't and you won't because there are very very few examples of that happening. All the Bok tries are all online. There are compilations of all of them, in chronological order. So simply post the evidence.

The fact is, for someone that received the ball as regularly as DDA, he creates almost noting and in set moves that result in tries, he is cut out most of the time. Those are the facts as evidence by the actual game video of Bok tries.

You are delusional if you think AE does anything differently to DA at test level

On Saturday he had a good game but nothing special at all - there was nothing he did that was different to DA

I showed you evidence of DA running support lines and throwing a long pass - you choose to dismiss them but the reality is it proves you are speaking kak

There was nothing special about AE running in support and scoring a try - the special in that sequence came from Willemse setting the try up

That is what we need at 12 moving forward

DA and AE are like for like and that’s a fact - both power players

Dud would never have thrown that instant skip pass. NZ are leading by 3 in a crucial game…he gets the ball and instantly lofts it past 2 other Boks to Kolbe.

What would Dud have done in decreasing order of probability.

1 He would have taken contact.(60%)

2 This year he might have grubber kicked…that’s the ‘new tool’(20%)

3 He would have passed to the nearest Bok after a slight hesitation drawing nobody.(18%)

4 He would have taken contact and offloaded (<2%)

5 He would instantly have thrown the perfect skip pass to Kolbe in space (<1%)

Sound about right?

Bullshit there is footage on here showing DA making a great break and throwing a long pass to Kolbe who scores

Your lots takes on DA are a load of shit matched by your elevation of AE’s contributions at test level

It’s all bullshit

That’s convincing…

IMO AE runs better onto the ball and into gaps...DDA is better at carrying in thick traffic as well clearing out rucks and playing like a 4th loosie. He is a better off loader too, but he does it very rarely, which reinforces the idea that it is by design and under instruction...having said all that, and on recent form, I would prefer to see AE have a run as the preferred 12 for a few games...I also prefer the AE 12/DW15 to DW12/Fassi15 combo...although I think DW is probably our best 12.

Willemse did most of his damage on Saturday from fullback when he had more space to operate in. His stint at 12 was pretty standard.

Ball in hand at 12:

0:15 attempted pass over the top to Hooker, deflected by ABs

3:16 passes to Kolbe

09:36 5m carry from first receiver, tackled by Jordie

11:15 carries, beats one, into contact, support drives him on

20:12 high kick, short, won back with the bounce

21:31 short carry first receiver, tackled

29:53 collects from ruck, runs 3m forward, steps sideways twice, tackled by Taylor

33:13 carries into contact, makes 2 or 3m

35:57 steps Beauden to make 6 or 7m upfield from inside the 22

There's nothing particularly creative or out of the ordinary here - the last little run from inside the 22 stepping Beauden was good and shows that he's far more dangerous in broken play with a little space around him to do his moves. Outside of that a few carries into a contact, a defender or two beaten. Not bad, but a pretty standard mix of contribution for a test 12.

He then shifts to fullback:

37:21 15m run in space on the outside, passes behind Kolbe

44:28 wide pass to Hooker

45:15 kick into AB 22 from halfway, AB clear back

48:27 kick through from ruck possession gaining 30m into touch

49:02 high kick from 22

51:45 misjudges AB high kick, missing it completely

55:00 receives from Reinach, stopped by Carter, good ball over the top to Hooker

59:58 kicks ahead from attacking ball for Moodie to chase, who can't gather an awkward low bounce

60:55 scores a fine try off a poor Libbok pass

62:38 jabs a grubber into touch, perhaps not the right option as he had men outside him

63:12 kick into touch on the 22 from halfway

65:58 short carry off Libbok pass

77:49 pass to Manie

78:14 runs into acres of space, feeds Williams for Esterhuizen's try

He got a lot of ball - plenty of kicking in the second half, most of them good in terms of territory, attacking kicks worked out less well. His try, which was superb, will undoubtedly elevate the perception of his performance to stratospheric levels. He was far from the perfect 10 he got in some people's ratings though, but it was a very good performance with mostly sound judgement outside of a poor kick or two and a poor pass to Kolbe in a promising position. I do think he'll thrive more in the space of a 15 when he can still feature in attacking positions like with his try. I'd say he is a must to have in the team at this point regardless of whether it's 12 or 15.

Esterhuizen had a few big moments - the pass to Kolbe, a terrific kick chase and tackle on Jordan which gave us an attacking scrum, a strong carry through two tackles that set up the ruck from where Kwagga's try directly originated plus his try. A strong or direct contribution to three of our scores.

37:21 passes to Manie on the wraparound

39:38 short carry, tackled

42:41 collects from ruck, spots Kolbe open, skips out three with a wide pass to send him over

44:27 pass to Willemse

44:34 collects from ruck, runs 6m into contact

59:47 collects Libbok pass on the bounce, steps inside Proctor, releases over Jordan to get Moodie away

66:10 big hit on Jordan on the kick chase gets a Bok scrum

67:10 first receiver carry into traffic, tackled

68:10 beats two tackles for a 10+m carry that sets up the ruck from which Libbok's cross for Kwagga's try comes

78:21 runs over Beauden to score

I just don’t get the logic of preferring the AE/DW to the DW/AF

For me it’s not even close - complete no brainer for me both from a rugby point of view and reinforced by AE’s age

Disagree on AE running into gaps better as I don’t recall AE doing that - neither do to be fair.

But for me it’s no longer about AE and DA - time to move on - new chapter - a chapter filled with creativity over contact

Ja, both are the future, Fassie is great but he still need to improve a few things...can't put my finger on it, he is very good...maybe his positional play on defence...

Pakie you are speaking utter horse shit. His try came from him moving into the 12 spot receiving the pass from Libbok

His try assist was effectively the same - he certainly did not do anything on attack from the fullback position

Geez I thought you were more rugby astute than that

Yes Dave, that is what I was trying to indicate with this line, that he can still be brought in to attack from other positions. It should have read "other" attacking positions.

I do think he'll thrive more in the space of a 15 when he can still feature in attacking positions like with his try.

Nope we need him at 12 as he is a magician creatively and now physical enough to take it up if need be which he will. He also has the mongrel in him.

I just don’t get why anyone would advocate wanting him at 15 when we have Fassi there

Thank goodness Rassie and co are seeing it like I am

We need Willemse and Fassi starting

The above is crazy. Whenever St Esterhuizen touch a ball - even if he does bugger-all with the balls - his admirers goes ballistic and screamed how good he is, He never makes line breaks setting players outside of him space to attack but the site membwes go ballistic in their praise songs. He scored 2 gift tries in the 23 tets he played in - both tries were made for him by other players. How amny tries did D e A llende score forcing hsi way th rough more defenders they necver saw and wsh to see.

De Allende ahs always be rated higher as a 12 thna Esterhuizen has been - but on thsi site S t Esterhuizen reigns supreme through rugby idiocy.

Whenever St Esterhuizen touch a ball - even if he does bugger-all with the balls

Nah, as above when he just carried into traffic I said he just carried into traffic. When he just passed I said he just passed. When he did something with a significant outcome, I pointed that out as such. No one's going ballistic, you're just not mature enough even in your old age to handle differing views with grace.

How amny tries did D e A llende score forcing hsi way th rough more defenders they necver saw and wsh to see.

Tell us. How many? And give us the games so we can see. I remember the one against Wales when he got through Biggar and the other guy who was trying to dust off his shoulders. What else you got?

Meanwhile this is what Justin Marshall, perhaps the most forthright rugby analyst, thinks:

Marshall suggests Fainga’anuku, a powerful player known for his stint in France's Top 14 and his current form at NPC with Tasman Mako, could bring a new level of threat to the midfield. He compares Fainga’anuku’s potential impact to that of Andre Esterhuizen of the Springboks, noting, "When the Springboks brought Esterhuizen on, like honestly, I know he is a tank, but what he was doing, wow."

Mozart

Dimness many rugby experts n the past said the same of De Allende and you lied too many times on issues relating to De Allende. I want to watch the 'Break Through" discussion on Sky news New Zealand - but missed last nights broadcast - but it will be repeated today or tommorrw,

So who was the MOM on Saturday anyway? .

Darkness I’m not quoting the experts, I’m quoting an expert who has demonstrated an ability to think. Kolbe was the MOM …he completely changed the test. If NZ scored from that overlap when Kolbe intercepted, the game could have turned out completely differently.

Willemse was named MOM and rightly so

I assume even Darkness knows that….I am giving my opinion.

Kolbe was great but Willemse set the trend

Disagree Willemse was great but the trend was changed by Kolbe. Geez Dave how can you always be wrong. Look at Pakie’s summary of essentially the whole first half….nothing that swung the game. Once we were dominant he made excellent contributions.

0:15 attempted pass over the top to Hooker, deflected by ABs

3:16 passes to Kolbe

09:36 5m carry from first receiver, tackled by Jordie

11:15 carries, beats one, into contact, support drives him on

20:12 high kick, short, won back with the bounce

21:31 short carry first receiver, tackled

29:53 collects from ruck, runs 3m forward, steps sideways twice, tackled by Taylor

33:13 carries into contact, makes 2 or 3m

35:57 steps Beauden to make 6 or 7m upfield from inside the 22

I’m not wrong there is a reason Willemse was awarded MOM

You always have a different opinion when it comes to rugby but unfortunately with that opinion you seem to associate being correct when you seldom are

There is a reason….yes there is a reason,……the reason the NZ commentators were talking him up all game. And then he scored a good try, basically running straight and hard. The hardest part of that try was collecting Libbok’s awful pass….the 2 NZ defenders missed straightforward tackles.

Compare that to the skill of Kolbe making that intercept, when getting it wrong was a certain try.

Look, evaluate for yourself, drop your stubborn biases and see what’s happening right on your screen.