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Debates on Rugby

Started by clevermike12 REPLIES315 VIEWS· 28 Sept 2012, 05:57
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Sept 2012, 05:57
#1
28 Sept 2012, 05:57#1

I am very worried about the issue of debating abouut players and performances on this Forum.   We must admit to be fair that we all have some preconceived oideas and am and often partial about what we write.   We make statements that can be debated and I myself say things merely to invite debate because of the controversial nature involved.

The latter issue makes membership of the Board very interesting and really add ot my personl amusement.   However, I am and has remained a huge admirer of Mozart.   He studies games and stats and uses that to illustrate the contribution made by individual players during games.   It does however, leave some scope for debate - as the stats do not necessarily reflect the actual situations applicable when speiific plays happen and that could impact on player reaction under given circumstances.   To give you an example - stats indicated the number of times a player for instance kick the balls - but does not indicate the nature of the kicks made - was it relieving kicks, startegic kicks or territory gain kicks, but most importantly the result and outcomes of the kicks.

However, we now have a new member from Argentina - with a really awesome analytical mind and real knowledge of the game.  He is a very talented youngster that studies rugby like a scientist and the of impact of laws on rugby and carefully analyzes each player.   The amusement part becomes a learning process when dealing with Cruz.   Witness what he says elsewhere on the site about Brussow, JP du Plessis and Pat Howard under other threads.   That really is a sound analysis of what the position is and I believe it is difficult to argue against that type of scuientific evaluation.   In all cases his deductions were was spot on and based on fact.

What worries me is that our dear members - with dozens of preconceived ideas and statements reflecting unfound preferences - like  Saffex, the Cat, Beeno and a few others and even myself may have hissy fits or their hearts will attack them - if they read Cruz's contributions.   LOL.    Maybe I should add the latter to my sources of amusement.   However, in the short time Cruz has been a member - if you really want a sound analysis of issues of real importance you can ask him and he would provide an extremely sound answer - leaving very little to argue against.  

Maybe the latter aspect will teach us as coach critics something much more of the game and I really believe Cruz is a real new asset to our forum.   I for one am going to ask him more questions about specific players and playing strateggy and specific occurences during games and that is a challenge that could be of benefit to all members..   I suggest you do the same - and maybe we could all learn from what he says.

Saffex and Mozart - there has been a discussion of Francois Steyn's performances in the tests this year.   Mozart says - based on statistics - that it was not great performances at all.   Similarly much is said about Hougaard as a scrummy.   However, what I want to do now is to ask Cruz to analyse the games played by these two players for us and let us then debate his answers.   That really would be intersting to see.   Although in general I side with Mozart's overall stateents -  the answers by Cruz on the issues raised on those two players will definitely add value to what we discuss on those two players.   .  

 

 

 

RA
radtad1Club Pro273 posts
28 Sept 2012, 07:02
#2
28 Sept 2012, 07:02#2

Mike,

 

I agree I have read a few of his replies and well done to him! Welcome Cruz appreciate that you put a lot of effort into your messages may they continue and I encourage you to bring more of your Argie brothers to this site!

 

But where I disagree is that no amount of analysis will take me away from how "I SEE" and interpret the game or player or situation as analysis doesnt include failiure by a player like Morne Steyn to all of a sudden miss a kick in the front of the posts? Or why Habana dropped his pass against the AB's.......

 

I want and like debate even though cat and beenbrain do talk some tripe I think we need debate that is intelligent at the least even if some of it may be a tad unfounded.

 

The other thing and most importantly is that if we become drawn to having opinons that we need a solution from an analytical guru then I think the board will become informative but sincerely boring. The mystery is in the debate Mike and long may it contine. Thats not that I am disagreeing that Cruz will add value im just happy with the stats quo

 

Cheers

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Sept 2012, 07:19
#3
28 Sept 2012, 07:19#3

radtad

Don get me wrong - I do like debating issues and really like what is happening on the Board.   However, I do believe that Cruz adds value to discussions and his opinions should be borne in mind.   That doies no take away the "I see"  comnponent you mentioned.

Let me add - I posted this thread as another controversial one - that is to get a response from good members like yourself.   Definitely we are all going to continue things as we see it - and I hope Cruz's comments will not reduce our disacussions - but adds value to it.

Anyway - it is not entirely a joke on my part.   I am really interested at what he thinks about issues and for instance what he thinks about players like McCaw and Carter as well.   Are they still mainting the same level of performance like they did two years ago - for instance.   You can just imagine what the New Zealand members would say about that one!!!!!!

RA
radtad1Club Pro273 posts
28 Sept 2012, 08:43
#4
28 Sept 2012, 08:43#4

Yeah he certainly has some intelligence and I better check myself before I respond to him hehe......,I am sure our kiwi brothers will time in with somr curlers asthey always do but they add their own flavour also and thatsgood to get that. Having Cruz ans Redsmen on here alszo gives us perspective from an OZ and Argie view and thats a good thing!!

 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Sept 2012, 10:58
#5
28 Sept 2012, 10:58#5

All very well Mike but some here, like Chippo, dont like long winded stuff. They like to cut directly to the chase. For those of this ilk I suggest they rather just read an authoratative source. Someone who they can rely on - who gets it right, is focussed on the relevant facts etc. I think folk all know who I am talking about!

I am not of course talking about ou ragtad who seldom knows what even the debate is actually about Hahhahahaha or jallopyou or carpetmuncher - where is the oak? 

I am afraid even Cruz will not be able to straighten out the kiwi bird brains. Bent is bent!!  But we soldier on grasping at any straw that presents itself, the slightest glimmer of hope.

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
28 Sept 2012, 11:36
#6
28 Sept 2012, 11:36#6

I really think Cruz is a valuable addition to this site, and i am very glad he decided to join us. As for debate, you can have two incredible rugby brains, say Naas and Nick Mallet, and they will disagree with each other about many things regarding rugby, but they both still know their stuff. Debate is good!

 

If I don't like what someone says, I'll disprove them...provided of course they aren't too pig headed to listen to any opinion other than their own. But still, those are the guys that make things interesting.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Sept 2012, 11:45
#7
28 Sept 2012, 11:45#7

Bluebok, I quite like Naas as a personality and he was a great player. He does provide the occassional insight together with a lot of platitudes and superfical stuff.  Naas is nowhere near Mallet as a rugby brain. None on the panel are.

Hence when listening to the panel concentrate on what Mallet says. Here on the forum concentrate on what  --- says  (One must be modest about these things)

JC
JCruzPCRookie21 posts
28 Sept 2012, 19:28
#8
28 Sept 2012, 19:28#8
Thanks for the kind words guys. I strive to analyse things from an impartial viewpoint, focusing mainly on the details I can assess technically and tactically. However as you all previously stated -- it's kind of hard to dissect your own team(s) for deficiencies. Over the last years I've been a critic of Santiago Phelan's tenure, but I know that he works hard towards bettering our National Team. I am all open for debate -- that's what a forum is for, is it not? Debate is quite helful in that it helps everyone to view things from a different perspective, and sometimes adds a bit of fun, the kind of fun you have at your local pub when you're watching a game and people start picking on each other's teams. What I don't like very much is all the out-and-out name calling and such. I'm not affected by it, I just fail to find it entertaining and valuable in any discussion. I leave that for keyboard gladiators. Discussing things with people like this is an utter waste of time. Mike Feel free to bring up anything you'd like to discuss -- I really relish analysing the technicality of this sport in general. It's healthy and keeps our rugby sense sharp. See you around!
CH
ChippoPro3,372 posts
28 Sept 2012, 20:53
#9
28 Sept 2012, 20:53#9

Welcome back Rad.

Missed you.

Just wonder when your mate Bokkilla will reappear. Much prefer you though bro!

 

TR
The Real DukeNewbie10 posts
28 Sept 2012, 21:05
#10
28 Sept 2012, 21:05#10

Cruz...good luck mate. there are some on here you might not get through to.

 

and wheres my big smoochie welcome ??????

Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
28 Sept 2012, 21:35
#11
28 Sept 2012, 21:35#11

Welcome Duke.

Looking forward to seeing your opinions.

Which teams do you support?

 

@Chip... haha yeeah we all had our suspicions!

RA
radtad1Club Pro273 posts
29 Sept 2012, 00:09
#12
29 Sept 2012, 00:09#12

Hi Chip,

 

Thanks I was away with work with my boss so couldnt really get much time to visit the site but I did get to read a few of bokillas posts and for a moment I thought it was cat Iol glad I was away.....doesnt take away from the fact that we still have the smallbeens hehe

 

Hello to Duke looks like you have been here before after reading your intro post - sounds like you and smallbeens have clashed before?

 

Flash - 'O ye of little faith' may I ask what suspicions they were?

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
29 Sept 2012, 02:24
#13
29 Sept 2012, 02:24#13

 Radtad1, Habana dropped his pass infront of the ABs tryline because

1. He was in unfamiliar territory

2. He was expecting an "up and under" or a chip kick for him to chase and not a pass :-)))))))

;-)), :D

— END OF THREAD —

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