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Do the Boks need a No.13?; Rugby 365

Started by Just_win29 REPLIES426 VIEWS· 04 Dec 2014, 08:03
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
04 Dec 2014, 08:03
#1
04 Dec 2014, 08:03#1
The Springboks are likely to head to the World Cup next year without a specialist outside centre, but is that such a problem? Jaque Fourie's recent retirement from international rugby and captain Jean de Villiers' horrific knee injury means that Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer's midfield options will have to be significantly revised next year. The two formed the most capped centre pairing in Springbok history, and many had their money on seeing them together for one last hurrah in England next year. A look at the options available shows that outside centres are in seemingly short supply, which means that the Boks may play with two inside centres as they effectively did throughout 2014. The players to wear the Green and Gold No.13 jersey this year were Jan Serfontein, Damian de Allende and JP Pietersen none of whom are natural outside centres, whilst the likes of Juan de Jongh and JJ Engelbrecht were overlooked. The experience and versatility of De Villiers meant that there was a fair amount of flexibility in the Bok midfield this year as Meyer tried to get the best out of the respective strengths of the players on the pitch. This saw Serfontein take his share of crash ball, whilst off turnovers the ball was generally shifted to Willie le Roux as quickly as possible. But will the Bok coach have the confidence to play the relatively inexperienced Serfontein and De Allende as his first-choice centre combination heading into the World Cup? If Frans Steyn manages to sort out his contractual dispute with SARU then he could claim De Villiers' no.12 jersey just as he did at the 2007 World Cup, but that is far from certain at this stage. A look at the other options shows that Meyer is not exactly spoilt for choice in this area.  De Jongh is one player with Test experience who could step up, but Meyer has not given him many opportunities in the past and has preferred more physical players.  Engelbrecht's selection in the Sevens squad shows that he has fallen right out of contention despite still being contracted, whilst none of the other contenders have any significant international experience to speak of which is not ideal with so few Tests before the World Cup. A look at the other top Test sides suggests that a specialist outside centre is something of a must-have with Conrad Smith, Tevita Kuridrani, Manu Tuilagi, Jonathan Davies and Marcelo Bosch all key players for their respective teams. There are no such obvious candidates for Meyer, so it will be interesting to see how things shape up in the South African conference of Super Rugby next year, with a spot in the Bok World Cup side effectively up for grabs.  Whether Meyer decides to go with two inside centres again, convert a wing like Pietersen or Bryan Habana or turn to a specialist No.13, he will need to start grooming that player as soon as possible. By Michael de Vries
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 08:08
#2
04 Dec 2014, 08:08#2

The way I see it we have a choice of either putting a speedster at 13 or a playmaker.


You need your 10, 13, and 15 to be able to break the game open.


JJ Engelbrecht is a speedster, Paul Jordaan is a play maker, Jan Serfontein is a crashball runner, I have not seen enough of Damien de ALlende at 13 to know what he is really capable of out there.


JP is neither a playmaker nor a speedster.



No matter how you slice the cake, two crashball runners in 12 and 13 provides predictable attack and it doesn't work against the rush defence.


I believe we must watch Keving Luiters closely in the next edition of Super XV if he does get a call up to one of the SUper XV franchises, he is the cleanest and neatest clearer of ruck ball in SA. If the boks have a scrumhalf that clan clear the ruck without taking two steps Pat Lambie and Handre POllard will have more time and space.



JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
04 Dec 2014, 08:09
#3
04 Dec 2014, 08:09#3
 This article highlights one of the debates on this site. I agree that there is no obvious choice for 13, the choices at 12 are not so great either.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 08:11
#4
04 Dec 2014, 08:11#4
I disagree, for me the current obvious choices is JJ and Paul Jordaan at 13 and Jan and Damien at 12.  
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
04 Dec 2014, 08:19
#5
04 Dec 2014, 08:19#5
 BB: the debate on this site about this tells me there is not clear choice. I guess the key point is what will Meyer do? Will be bring back F. Steyn?
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 08:27
#6
04 Dec 2014, 08:27#6

Agree there is much debate about it, but my opinion stands. Frans Steyn made a big impact for us in the RWC in 2011, his injury was one of the three reasons I believe we lost to AUstralia that fateful day in Wellington.


However since then he has been disappointing, I doubt whether he can get back to his best, he just doesn't seem hungry enough, happy nor at the fitness level required.

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
04 Dec 2014, 08:46
#7
04 Dec 2014, 08:46#7
 
BB ... to think of JJ as a test 13 is madness.

He's never mastered the art of 13 play. Not at Currie Cup level ... nor at Super Rugby level ... why do you now think he'll be any different at test level?

He is completely ignorant there. Playing at outside center doesn't come natural to him. Just another Meyer retread. Destined to fail because he's playing out of position. 

He may have a lot of pace but in all honesty ... that's about it.

His work rate is pathetic ... he's a defensive nightmare ... doesn't know how to run lines ... and in the last few seasons hasn't learnt anything playing along side Jean De Villiers. 

The only way he'll ever amount to something at 13 is if he had an inside man like Sonny Bill, who creates out of nothing, through offloading in contact ... drawing defenders and putting his outside man into the gap.

Do we have such a player?

NO!!!! We do not.

Therefore JJ would be expected to create something himself and that I'm afraid is not a strength of his ... AT ALL.

Forget about JJ. Find a natural, specialist a t 13. We have more than enough better there than the winger JJ.





BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 09:06
#8
04 Dec 2014, 09:06#8

CC, we have a situation where we don't have any gifted 13s


That is in essence our biggest problem, we also do not have an experienced player that qualifies on all the requirements, JP is too slow, Jaque (thank goodness has retired) so there are no naturally gifted and experienced 13's


SO all you have is Damien and Jan who are both limited in playmaking, Jan perhaps more so than Damien.


SO yu therefor have to go with either Jan or Damien at 13 and the other at 12. If Frans Steyn is in the picture and Meyr selects him at 12, then that will be the scenario


Paul Jordaan is a naturally gifted player, and really the only potential 13, but between injuries and Meyer's reluctance to try him, we have not seen him at 13.


JJ may not be the traditional 13, but our backline had a shitload full of pace out wide with him there, his tackle stats aren't that bad either,


Juan de Jongh is much poorer with a tackle success rate in SUper XV this season of 59 tackles made, 20 missed.


If we go Frans and Jan, or Frans and Damien, or Jan and Damien or Damien and Jan, we do not have anything other than predictable attack.


I much rather see a midfield that have a slight weakness on defence and an ability to change the point of attack than a midfield that might on the face of it, miss less tackles, but are slower to shut down the space and lack of penetration other than running through a brick wall. 

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
04 Dec 2014, 09:22
#9
04 Dec 2014, 09:22#9
 
In other words ... we're fcuked if we do and we're fc uked if we don't ... all because of the shortsightedness of Meyer

Frustrating to the extreme.

I can see Frans "Bloodrush" Steyn coming back to play 12 for Meyer, because of his "experience" ... This still leaves us with a choice of two 12's to play 13 ... neither of them competent enough to make an impression ... merely there to make up the numbers.

Wonderful!!



 
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 09:43
#10
04 Dec 2014, 09:43#10
We are most li kely to end up with Frans and Jan, defensively they will inspire confidence in Meyer on defence, but attack wise there will be nothing other than bash, bash bash, and very few chances of space. 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Dec 2014, 09:45
#11
04 Dec 2014, 09:45#11
If Meyer had any brains he would realise that there are plenty of good options at 13 but given his poor selections and lack of investment, he is now left stranded and the notion that the selected player lacks experience at test level should hardly be an issue if he is good enough.
For a start JJ should never have been discarded. His performance with ball in hand against the AB's was the best we have seen in years. His defence this past s15 has been the best of the SA sides. Meyers treatment of JJ has been pathetic. His speed and feet are a real asset at 13.
de Allende was our best attacking centre this s15. He looks better suited to finishing at 13 than creating at 12. Again Meyers pathetic investment in him giving him little test time and discarding him so soon speaks volumes for Meyer. de Allende is a real handful with ball in hand much like Kurandrani is for Oz.
JJ and de Allende would be ideal options as they offer different strengths.
These two are closely followed by the very impressive Stokkies Hanekom who reminds me of a young Jaque Fourie. His ability to slip tackles and score tries is a real strength.
We are also missing out on Kobus v/Wyk as a centre. He posses the same strengths as JJ with added physical clout. This guy is wasted on the wing having played all his age group rugby at centre. I remember him playing 12 for the WP u20 inside Pat Howard. 
Jessie Kriel looks a phenomenal attacking force. He showed that for the Baby Boks this year at 13. He is equally at home at 15 but might just be our answer at 13. He is one to watch.
Sithole showed some real form for the Sharks this year and looks at home at 13.
Taute always remains an option and has shown glimpses of his pre injury form. He was our best test 13 when last he played there a few years ago.
In Pat Howard and Tyler Fisher we have two quality young 13 s who need s15 exposure this year and look to have all the material to succeed.
I also think man mountain Andre Esterhuizen might be better suited to 13 in the Tuilagi,  Basteraud mould. He is freakishly strong and has a good step on him.
Sadie had a good coming of age season for the Cheetahs before leaving overseas. Would be good to see Serfontein ' s school, SA schools and Baby Bok centre partner Dries Swanepoel get a break at the Bulls. Same can be said of big boy Rohan Janse v / Rensburg who is equally at home at 12 or 13.
For me de Jongh and Jordaan are not physically up to the task of playing as test 13 s.
We have plenty of options at 13.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Dec 2014, 09:56
#12
04 Dec 2014, 09:56#12
 Biltong you are VERY wrong about Jan being a crash ball centre. Sadly he has been reduced to that role with the Bulls and Boks as they don't play an expansive game.
But for the Baby Boks he showed sublime attacking skills winning him the player of the tournament.  He showed those same skills when he made his s15 debut but sadly the instructions have changed.
He is NOT a crash ball centre
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Dec 2014, 10:08
#13
04 Dec 2014, 10:08#13
 Jan was NEVER a crash ball centre till teh Bulle got to interferring with him. JAN AND JJ PLEASE LEAVE THE BULLE IF THEY DO NOT MEND THEIR BONEHEADED WAYS!
Guys to try at 13 - Allende, Jordaan, Howard and Hanekom.No shortage of talent just shortage of imagination and brain power. 
De Jong is not physical enough and is a very poor distributor of the ball.I think being a Bok supporter has to be rated as a very frustrating occupation!



BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 10:30
#14
04 Dec 2014, 10:30#14

OK, here are the defensive stats for the centers under discussion for this season's Super Rugby.


Some notes, Frans Steyn played at 10 and 12, Paul Jordaan played at 12 and 13, Damien de Allende played at 14 and 12. Paul Jordaan and Juan de Jongh played fewer games.


Ranked from highest tackle success rate. This is going to crush a few perceptions


JJ Engelbrecht, tackles made 122, tackles missed 13, turnovers won 6, success 90.3%

Jan Serfontein, tackles made 137, tackles missed 20, turnovers won 6, success 87.3%

Paul Jordaan, tackles made 81, tackles missed 17, turnovers won 7, success 82.6%

Damien de Allende, tackles made 79, tackles missed 17, turnovers won 5, success 82.3%

Frans Steyn, tackles made 122, tackles missed 33, turnovers won 14, success 78.7%

Juan du Jongh, tackles made 59, tackles missed 20, turnovers won 4, success 74.7%

BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
04 Dec 2014, 10:31
#15
04 Dec 2014, 10:31#15

 "Biltong you are VERY wrong about Jan being a crash ball centre. Sadly he has been reduced to that role with the Bulls and Boks as they don't play an expansive game."


That may be so, but both Frans Ludeke and Heyneke Meyer is using him in that role.

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
04 Dec 2014, 11:10
#16
04 Dec 2014, 11:10#16
 Hasbeeno, I think you've just summed up Bok rugby perfectly; "shortage of imagination and brain power".....Well done on your discovery!!
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Dec 2014, 11:29
#17
04 Dec 2014, 11:29#17
 Case closed on JJ defensively then and one only needs to watch how he beat Savea on the outside with an in out to realise what skills he has in the attacking department. Not to mention his stepping of Cruden in the same test and the strength he showed in running straight through Conrad Smith in the very same game.
Meyer after that test should have been licking his lips instead the utter idiot dropped JJ for donkey Fourie on the EOYT who gained all of 13 m in 4 tests and never beat a single defender.
And we wonder why JJ possibly started the s15 lacking confidence. Meyers player management is pathetic.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
04 Dec 2014, 14:56
#18
04 Dec 2014, 14:56#18
  The only 13 with Super Rugby experience and who could leap to the test level, is Sadie. Last year he was the best saffa 13 IMO and he's the only saffa center who can create or  make the players around him play which suits perfectly with the style of Serfontein or de Allende at 12.

I would play with Serfontein or de Allende at 12, Johan Sadie at 13 and move JJ Engalbrecht to the wing.

Saffex,
you give us a very good and extensive list of all the saffa centers but not all of them will be able to play test level. To begin with they have to prove themselves at SR level , which many of them didn't achieve yet (Kobus v/Wyk, Jessie Kriel, Sithole, Pat Howard, Tyler Fisher, Andre Esterhuizen, Dries Swanepoel,  Rohan Janse v / Rensburg). They could be good prospects to follow next season but no more , at least for the moment.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Dec 2014, 17:21
#19
04 Dec 2014, 17:21#19
 Yep AB that was my point regarding the extended list. All good prospects.
I disagree with your take on Sadie. He was good but not the best. 
JJ is our best 13 so no he is not to move to wing. 
de Allende is not a 12 he lacks the creativity to be a good 12. He is more of a powerful finisher and should therefore play 13
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Dec 2014, 01:03
#20
05 Dec 2014, 01:03#20
Serfontein,de Allende, JJ and Jordaan are inferior to any of Toomua, Kuridrani, Ashley Cooper, Nonu, Conrad Smith, SBW, Fekitoa, Roberts, Bosch, Hernandez,  Fofana, Tuilagi.
We have never been as badly off for quality  and contrary to the expectations of some, HM can't grow new centres in a petri dish. The loss of JdV was a disaster, and makes it imperative we bring back Fran's to play the adult at the RWC.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
05 Dec 2014, 01:08
#21
05 Dec 2014, 01:08#21
Some will lead us believe all our players are inferior to the mighty All Blacks 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Dec 2014, 01:19
#22
05 Dec 2014, 01:19#22
Well let's see. You offer us a slow inside stepper in Steppie. A guy who so obviously dislikes physical contact, has no rugby instincts and has already proved that in JJ....because he is fast. Another fast chap in Jordaan, who is easy meat for the big guys. And a guy who is learning to play centre in de Allende, and was obviously out of his depth against the Bargies.

And you offer this pathetic set of options with a sense of having cracked the case.
Let me remind you again, just as one example, of JJs last test
1 he overruns a set move on the AB line and loses the ball
2 he  fails to put Savea into touch leading to an AB try
3 he runs away from his support on the stroke of halftime, gets turned, leading to an AB try after he misses Nonu in the subsequent move
4 he misses Barrett for the RC winning try.
Yes, with those 4 choices I do believe we are inferior to the ABs....none of them would have a prayer of making the AB team.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Dec 2014, 01:37
#23
05 Dec 2014, 01:37#23
 What utter nonsense. The only centres who have the edge on ours are SBW and Fek. ....the rest don't 
Serfontein is the best young 12 in the game.
JJ ripped the Kiwi's to shreds.
de Allende won all his battles in the s15.
We have more quality depth at centre than we have EVER had. Our biggest issue is a loser coach who still thinks Fourie and Jean are our best. The man is a joke
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Dec 2014, 01:52
#24
05 Dec 2014, 01:52#24
Oh and let's get the facts straight on JJ:
1. He runs a perfect angle only to have Morne throw a pass behind him - Fact
2. Absolute rubbish he stops Savea and plenty happens after that before the AB s score - Fact
3. Hogwash. On the stroke of halftime Morne and Jean decide to attack for they pass the ball to JJ hardly expecting him to kick. He beats Cruden with a great step and nearly gets away from Read and stumbles after Read touching him. He goes down and Kolisi hits contact only to have the ball fly out. Nonu steps JJ to no effect as runs straight into the next man. Again the try results from other passages of play, not anything to do with JJ - 
4. Funny that no mention is made of Jean and Morne missing Barrett. This confirms the prejudice held by Moz against JJ. His tale has stuff all to do with facts. Go check the YouTube footage of the test and treat yourself to the facts




MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Dec 2014, 02:35
#25
05 Dec 2014, 02:35#25
And the coach HM who is Bools centric  and the backline coach Loubscher who is Bools centric leave out JJ just to be mean? These guys know him imtimately and concluded exactly as I did about his four mega mistakes in that AB test.....he was instantly gone, and not a moment to soon.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
05 Dec 2014, 08:07
#26
05 Dec 2014, 08:07#26

 Facts don't count for much on this board.


In fact you can fabricate your own facts by providing an opinion, and when shown the light evasion tactics are the norm, distraction or complete avoidance seems to be the best tactic.


I wish we had players capable of avoiding defenders the way evasion tactics are used on this board.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Dec 2014, 11:51
#27
05 Dec 2014, 11:51#27
 Well given Meyer and his selections have been sorely exposed this EOYT he is hardly the measure now is he. He is clueless, probably surpassed by Loubscher who - how the hell did he ever merit the Bok backs coach, it's a joke.
Good old Meyer dropping JJ after his excellent test against the AB is one of many of his mistakes but more than anything exposed his poor player management skills.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Dec 2014, 12:02
#28
05 Dec 2014, 12:02#28
 Well Biltong....One only needs to watch that test again to easily pick up the fact that Morne s pass was to the back of JJ s hip.....no fault of Morne who's passing is usually good.....but when a centre runs a diagonal angle it is not easy to get the pass spot on.
But the real laughs in this is the halftime incident. Why would Morne our touch kicker and Jean our captain pass the ball to JJ if they did not want to launch an attack just before the half ended? If the Boks were going to kill the ball at that moment, Morne would have kicked it out. Simple fact.
But the cherry on the cake is blaming JJ alone for the Barrett try....its insulting to any rugby follower.
Fact is JJ had an outstanding game with ball in hand that test, completely out playing the impressive Conrad Smith, a fact conceded by a knowledgeable Kiwi supporter on this site. It was the best attacking performance by a Bok 13 since probably Daniel Gerber
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
05 Dec 2014, 12:15
#29
05 Dec 2014, 12:15#29
Saffex, you don't need to convince me of JJ, I am not the one disputing facts and generating his own.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Dec 2014, 12:29
#30
05 Dec 2014, 12:29#30
 Biltong I know!
— END OF THREAD —

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