Does SA have any decent coaches? Who should take over the bok reigns

I think a couple of you on here brought a couple of good points on who the best coaches are. If you ask me, I would love to see Scott Robinson or even Ronan Ogara take over the reigns. They play a fantastic brand of rugby, BUT, it was at club level. We have seen with Australia that winning a club comp doesn't mean that you will succeed at international level. Robbie Deans as well as Dave Rennie are founding out the hard way. So what does it take to produce a successful coach? 

Here is my thoughts and why I think we sometimes get carried away and don't look at the talent or players that the coaches have at their disposal. I do believe that it takes a special coach that have worked with the players from age group and have a long standing relationship as well as great results behind them. 

Case in point, many of the players that we see in the boks squad today came through WP u21 academy. Kolisi, Etzebeth, Malherbe, Kitshoff to name a few. Wonder why Eldstadt gets called up or even Fourie. It is because Niena and Rassie know these guys. 

For a while we all thought that Swys and Ackerman should take over the boks, but they Lions have not turned into also ran and neither coaches are at the top of the coaching tree. Swys is a pundit and Ackerman Japanese team got dropped from 1st to 3rd league Japan rugby. Neither did he set the world alight. We have Alastair Coetzee, took over the reigns under Rassie, has some success but never won anything. He got a job in Japan and now have been exposed as a mediocre coach. 

The big question, is Scott Robertson as good as everyone makes him out to be. Look, he is the coach of the Crusaders and like so many other coaches before him. The Crusaders have been the top team in professional rugby. This is a union that just knows how to build a rugby team from their youth structures. Who remembers Aaron Major, fantastic 12 for them but when he left the Crusaders to play for Leicester he just became average. 

I believe that their are very few coaches that can transform a team and be successful vs those who have the luxury of a fantastic union with a lot of talented players to work with. 

As for SA, there have been so many quota appointments that I don't see any of our u21 coaches one day taking over the boks and leading us to a World Cup as our talent and teams are fragmented with limited success. 

Thoughts?

The only SA coach in my mind is Dobbo, he has been part of WP for many years. He had some really poor results after taking over but as time went on managed to find his groove and get the most out of his players and now has a URC title. The Stormers is the 2nd best team in the URC and will have to wait and see how this season pans out. 

Jake has fallen to the way side, great at implementing structures and has a great eye for young talent. But comes short on match days and tactics. 

Neil Powel is fresh, got the sharks back to winning ways but then sent a B team to Ireland, probably didn't have a choice but also didn't travel with the team. 

I don't even know the name of the Lions coach, but then that union hardly has any decent players and get take several years to build back to where they were. Doesn't help that Destroyli is in charge of the cheque book and refuse to bring back their key players. Imagine the likes of Kwagga, Mostert, Marx and RJV back in the mix how much better they would be. If the sharks could do it, why not the Lions? 

Franco Smit has been an absolutely failure but he does seem to have some to hit some purple patches. He bombed as Italy coach, now coaching Glasgow that just beat the Stormers. But not sure that he is a great coach. 

We have Ackerman in Japan but his Gloucestershire team did okay, thanks to taking some Lions players with. 

Frans Ludeke is still coaching in Japan but his teams are performing okay. Don't forget that he actually won 2 Super rugby tittles. The first went to Meyer. Then look at the bulls players that got them that success. Matfield, Bakkies, Steyn, Habana etc. 

We are either stuck with Rassie or perhaps time for Dobbo?

KC

I think there is no resignations or enforced vacancies at this stage.   Erasmus is officially not the coach - he is Director of Rugby and that will not change after the 2023 WC.    There are a few potential candidates - but if any vacancy occurs the agreement  between Erasmus and SARU will kick in - he will have the final say in filling of vacancies amongst the coaching staff.

We know that Nienaber was appointed based on the agreement and so were all the other coaching staff members.    

There are some coaching staff members who may go and if that is the case with the head coach there are two potential replacements namely Dobbo and Powell - I do not think White has a chance to be appointed - he is way too controversial and do not have the ability to deal with backline play.                     

Rooinek

About a legal postal vote - LMAO.   You must check the Democrats possibly submitted a vote in y our name anyway.  

Mike, I think Rassie is the the Head coach but uses his assistants as a proxy. No other coach on the planet would work under those conditions. I haven't see Rassie do much for the rest of SA's rugby teams and his focus has solely been on the boks and that he can pick and choose which matches he wants to attend our trips he wants to go on. Like we saw with the A games, the minute the shit hit the fan, Rassie dumped the opportunity to work with those players and stayed with the A team. 

Then, my biggest fear is that Stick or Deon Davids will become the boks next head coach. Not because of race but they have no credible record and we have had two black coaches with no success or limited. I do not credit De Villiers, the man is a fucking idiot and John Smit and Matfield pretty much coached the boks in 2009 irrespective on De Villiers incompetence. Also, him calling Matfield a racist and omitted the best 5 in the world at the time. 

If you look at the age group, yes we won the 6 nations but there was no Argentina, NZ or Aus playing and we know how good NZ youth teams are. Those players stay in the system too and go on to become All Blacks. So I don't see how Bfana, the SA u21 coach have the right to coach the boks in 2 to 4 years time. 

I have to agree with Saffex based on recent results at the bulls that Jake Whites days are over. Great coach, been a fan for many years. 

I want to see a coach that has had success with a core group of players from age group all the way through to franchise level. Ackerman was the right man instead of Coetzee, but my question is who should be next. 

Not saying Dobbo is the answer, but to my mind he has the best credentials

Jake is the first and foremost candidate. However, given how things work in SA, he will never be back. There is so little understanding in how to discern a coach's ability. This alone tells me that SA has a very bleak future in rugby. We need an architect who can rebuild. Only Jake and Meyer tick that box. The very thought of Mallett cannot be taken seriously. 

I keep to the actual legal situation - namely that Erasmus is the Director of Rugby and his contract is not linked to any time limitations.    All the coaches of the provincial franchises also falls under him.  At5 this stage the discussion is not pertinent or even under consideration.

I think it is rather futile to discuss the situation at this stage and one wonders what the situation would eb at the end of this year.   In the event of the Springboks winning the WC again - and I am quite optimistic about that one - the situation is unlikely to change even at the end of this year.          

I do not fall for the bs of l' Grande Merde - he has no idea about rugby and writes shit on site.          

I keep to the actual legal situation - namely that Erasmus is the Director of Rugby and his contract is not linked to any time limitations.    All the coaches of the provincial franchises also falls under him.  At5 this stage the discussion is not pertinent or even under consideration.

I think it is rather futile to discuss the situation at this stage and one wonders what the situation would eb at the end of this year.   In the event of the Springboks winning the WC again - and I am quite optimistic about that one - the situation is unlikely to change even at the end of this year.          

I do not fall for the bs of l' Grande Merde - he has no idea about rugby and writes shit on site.          

Find a smart Bok player who is about 10 years into retirement….or will be about 47 or 48 at the WC. That’s the right age to relate to the players and be fully in touch with the game today. Fourie du Preez strikes me as a pretty astute guy, make him assistant now and head coach after the WC.

But please, let’s not go down the AB route of grandfathers as coaches.

Fourie Du Preez hated leadership. He is a very smart man, and the Japanese were very impressed with his leadership ability and his intelligence, but he is not a very vocal person. He likes to focus on his job. I think he could be very successful as a coach, if he wanted it. I wonder what Matfield is up to. He and Jean De Villiers were always key cogs in the gameplanning. I'm sure they would be excellent candidates. 

Dobbo and Swys.....and Fourie du Preez would definitely make a difference.

Since WC 2019 we have regressed, well that's atleast according to latest stats....so although Rassie has done well in certain areas, in a whole We have stagnated....in the past or to the beginning of Rassie,s term, we were still able to grind out those close games against top opposition....WC is all about those close games and winning....we have lost that winning composure and better get it back quickly, otherwise WC will be short lived.

That's very optimistic Mpower. 2018 was worse than Coetzee's 2017, he kept the team 6th right up until the defeat against New Zealand in the World Cup. We never had a real peak. Living off of double ranking points and a year of no participation to bloat the myth. The Boks have never been good under Etasputin.

This might be true, but there is no use going back to the likes of White, Meyer, Coetzee, Mallett....as Consultants by all means, but as headcoach it was tried and did not succeed. Rassie in my opinion is also not the answer.....the only coach I can see right now that is embracing a more Balanced style of Rugby or atleast trying,  is Dobbo....so we do have good local talent that can be utilized.

Meyer gave the fans a balanced game, it couldn't possibly be more balanced. The fans didn't want that. They want a figure like Erasputin, a braai kak praat kind of guy. It seems to be the thing that soothes them. To heck with performance. The presence of Erasputin exposed the hypocrisy, as he gave the fans everything they claimed to hate. Right down to the T, but he has been given a cushy ride all the way through. I can't think of another coach who has had it this easy. 

He surely loves " Kak praat " and talking in general, just can't help himself 

We were inaccurate, sloppy, disorganised, unable to coordinate in any meaningful way and needed totally free open space to run into. This team is a mess. Erasputin is an embarrassment. 

After completion of WC 2019 Boks finished on a 65.38 win percentage....if Rassie and Nienhaber is really as good as what is being proclaimed, why did we not build on that win ratio since 2019? Instead we have gone down 3% and dropped to 4 th in World Rankings.

MP

You missed the real point totally.     Meyer was largely respsonsible for the mess.  He concentrated on players who were totally useless by 2015 and his WC squad contained 8 unplayable players.   Players like Pollard were in and out of the Springbok team regularly.   In the process it can be said that he played ping pong with players, 

In the period 2016 and 2017 Coetzee did not know how to select and develop players and some of the more experienced players like Le Roux were never used by him.   He developed no combinations and the team deteriorated horribly.   In the end he was fired due to total incompetence.  He ended up coaching in Japan - while Meyer ended up coaching Stade Francais.   Both came near to destroying the clubs they were coaching and was fired as a result.  

 Erasmus took over the Boks in 2018 - a totally demoralized group of players who lost against everybody - even Italy.    Erasmus had to try and get the previous Springboks back into the game of rugby as professional players and had to find a number of replacements in the Springbok set-up.     So the problem was what to do to get some semblance of order in the team.   

He started off using tests to experiment with potentially promising players from provincial franchises in SA and Clubs in Europe.    An example is the team who played Wales in Washington only had 5 previous Springboks in the squad - the other 18 players were all newbies.   In the end 2018 was used as a year in which new players be brought in and the neglected previous Springboks invigorated.    By the end of the year most of the selection problems were solved - but some site members scream doomsday because of the fact that the developing team lost matches.

So now back to 2022.   There were some of the WC winning team of 2019 that had to be replaced as a result of retirement - while some players lost form badly and their performances went down.   There were also a number of injuries that seemed to be hard to recover from - eg Pollard and Du Toit.   Although there were less problems at the start of 2022 than at the start of 2018 - there were still some experimenting with new players necessary.   

Dealing with issues objectively the situation is that the end result will be a far stronger player group at the start on 2023 than there was in 2019.    There will still be minor problems - mainly due to injuries that need to be dealt with - the situation is much sounder at present than it was in January 2019 and we all know what happened in the rest of 2019.

Doos XL and DumbPlum have a lot in common.

Rooinek and Denny

Please do not call him Doos XL - that si unfair to doos's.   I call him l'Grande Merde - which means the Greatest Shit but am afraid it is unfair to shit to even call him that.     

Rooinek and Denny

Please do not call him Doos XL - that si unfair to doos's.   I call him l'Grande Merde - which means the Greatest Shit but am afraid it is unfair to shit to even call him that.   

What I do know is that he knows nothing about either rugby or cricket.  So acept the mutterings of the moron should best be ignored.   

Yes but he's not just any old Doos , he's an XL one.

The insults are in direct proportion to your inability to debate with Deus…L’Grande indeed.

But I ‘acept that you is trying hard’.

That is true that Rassie made us better and took us to the top in 2019, but after that he started neglecting fundamental facets of our game, like structured attack, poor team Selection, Gameplan, Defence....Rassie,s self inflicted ban did play a big Role yes, and we haven't seen any positive effect on Reffing....more a negative image on the Boks because of the Hoo Ha....when it comes to player injury + Selection, much sooner in his term Player Depth could have been created by R&N to cover for those main position players.....instead they cling onto old players or players out of form just because of past Reputation.....in my opinion these are some of the Reasons for us dropping in those stats.

This thread and this board in general could serve as a case study for people who let themselves defined by their consumption.

In this case, consuming rugby is a major facet of their life and anything threatening to modify rugby is unsettling.

Every coach is limited by the players at hand. SA rugby players are not proper to the game of rugby. They can not play it.

No coach can not change this. Any coach is doomed to produce the very same lack of rugby as of today.

SA rugby are at least two generations behind, the current one is unable to play rugby and the next one is crushed by the emergency of using rugby as a ticket to flee the living nightmare theirs ancestors have created, blaming quota people for being unable to correct the course.

As Shaun Edwards said the Boks are probably the best side in the game right now

Many people out there. People who disrespect other people's opinions. People who disrespect their own opinion.

Usually, SA rugby supporters use a pretext to condone their team's inability to play rugby the winning way. They do not play rugby but they win.

They can not even cling to that pathetic pretext as now, winning is not even a factor.

Without they win or lose, their brand of rugby is excellent.

we had a good EOYT playing nice attacking rugby

The EOYT happened as it was foretold to happen, SA rugby relying mostly on the only mattering parameter for them: freshness.

Players were purposedly rested in order to benefit from a freshness advantage, yet the game was lost against less fresh teams.

Playing nice attacking rugby, what a power of mind to imagine things.

Already if SA rugby could apply themselves to play rugby (forget the nice and attacking), that would be a such change.

An example is the team who played Wales in Washington only had 5 previous Springboks in the squad - the other 18 players were all newbies.  

There were 9. If you are going to tell it, tell it correctly. Of the new caps, there was Kwagga, Nche, Jenkins, Mapimpi and Esterhuizen. Hardly lean pickings, and form players that year. 

Erasmus had to try and get the previous Springboks back into the game of rugby as professional players and had to find a number of replacements in the Springbok set-up.   

The core of Erasmus' team in 2018 were all previously established under Snor, Meyer or Coetzee. Of the new caps, only Dyanti, Nkosi, and Mapimpi would see regular game time and make the first team. The 30 key players aside from them were all previously capped and established. 24 of those 30 were core players, all of whom had 10 or more previous caps period to Erasputin. Michael, you are simply making it all up as you go along . 

No coach has done less to bring in new Boks than Harrassmiss.

I sense a lot of us on here had enough of Rassies antics. One thing I know is that Rassie was better than Snorre and Coetzee. He is on Par with Meyer. However, the more I think about it the more confident I become in that we may go further in this World Cup. 

I hate losing any test match, but, come to think aboutit. Rassie cobbled scratch teams together and must have known it will be tight. Want to test the players to see if the can cope with the pressure and prove they belong their. You not going to see a players worth if he comes on as a sub. I don’t like that as I prefer to build a player up but when can you test a player and get near World Cup final conditions.  Maybe why we ran Ireland so close as well as France. He will use that to motivate the players later this year when play Ireland in our pool. 

He is also probably one of the best tournament coaches and knows how to play knock out rugby. Look what he did with the Cheetahs, first a draw then they won the Currie cup against a springbok laden bulls team. 

I don’t like what he has done by only having a 60% win ratio. 

But, which ever team win this World Cup out of group a or b will be the undisputed champions. 

We have 1,2,3 and 4 In the world with only 2 of those that could make the final. 

My prediction would be is that we thump Ireland, France beats New Zealand. We play New Zealand in the quarter, knock them out and then play either Aus or Eng in the Semi with a show down against France and win the dam thing. 

All of these games will be close and a stupid ref call can mean the end. Maybe Rassie is breathing down the refs neck because the refs will know if the ruck up that they will get grilled on social media. 

So who ever wins will be the undisputed champions that faced the best teams. SA has the chance to beat all the teams in the top 5. 

Now, is Libbok ready for this, can we get Pollard back into form just in time for the big game. 

Should be exciting 

Agree with you about the above.   I have to say that members like  l'Grande Merde and Mozart went ballistic against Erasmus - based entirely on a deceptive career record and they never stopped once attacking him.   They admitted they wanted White appointed and not Erasmus.

There are to my mind two positions that worry me about the Springbok team and that is flyhalf and number 8.   Maybe because of injuries Pollard's recent performances have been questionable at best; and Vermeulen is in the same position.