Frans and JP, Bok Centre pairing for the near future?

 Many of us weren’t convinced earlier in the season that JP was suited to play 13. He did well enough but some felt that he just doesn’t have the defensive experience required of a world class 13. After Saturdays game, I do believe that JP has the making to become a great 13 combined with Frans Steyn. We all know that Frans will be wearing the bok 12 jumper barring injury and form. Now that he has joined the sharks. It would be a great time for both JP and Frans to build a formidable midfield partnership at the sharks.

Saffex would love having these two midfield monsters and I kind of agree with him that having the guys such as Steyn and JP tearing up the middle would be great for the boks. 

 He showed some deft touches this weekend and yes he was the best 13 on the field. However I still think this is not his position. I would rather keep him on the wing and look at the other young centres coming through before i convert him fully.

Why because he got put in space once....and because he beat Peter Grant who didn't close up? Here are his numbers:

He made at least 20 metres with one open run down the left wing. That means in his remaining 8 runs he averaged 2 metres. Hardly unusual.

We are so apt to believe the one bit of positive evidence, versus the weight of negative data. JP's defensive stats were poor at 13.....he was moved back to wing for a reason and only pressed into 13 to fit a game plan, and because of injuries.

If he can build on Saturday, he can make a case. But one swallow does not make a summer.

I'd be more than happy to see Frans and JP as our Bok centre combo - in fact I would encourage that selection. It is a combo that oozes clout.

Wrong Moz, the reason JP moved back to wing was to accommodate the impressive Jordaan who was doing so well in the Sharks Vodacom side at 13. The logical move was to play Jordaan at 13 and move JP back to wing - it had stuff all to do with JP's performance at 13 for the Sharks.

JP is a wing who is bloody good at 13. His attacking clout is so much more than most of the other Bok candidates, that he would be better than most be it at 14 or 13..........the question for Meyer is whether we need him more at 13 or 14 - this is dependent on who he considers the options are.

Its a tough one and I'd be inclined to go with JP at 13 where he would be involved in the game more and without doubt, he would be a far better option than Jean

it might be worth a shout seeing that there is no 13's sticking there hands up at the moment. might open the door for mvovo and co to move in the lineup. but after the games he had against the poms would one want to convert him to 13 ??? is so will someone be able to sit with him and teach him the proper way of the change in jumper or will he just be left to learn on the pitch ???

i will not mind seeing him there but if the decision is made then i hope he is picked there and kept there and is mentored on the finer details of playing at 13. he has the goods to perform there i feel. just a matter of being taught and mentored

It would be a huge mistake to try and pair those two players up as centers.   Lets face facts both players are very strong - but definitely on the slow side.    They both play the same kind of game - using force to try and get past their opponents - and in doing so they are not really creative players at all.    I would never pair the two up as centers - that would be disastrous.   Pietersen is an ideal wing - and he should remain a wing - not made into a center where creative play (especially at 13) is a requirement.

JP is impressive at 13, the combination of frans steyn at 12 and JP at 13 would be very hard to defend against that speed and strength. It would also give mvovo a chance to play at 14 who has been in great form for the sharks this year. It is very important that meyer selects a solid backline. There has been some conserversy whether Hougaard is a wing or half back. This has been a problem that needs to be sorted out, Hougaard is a wing. Pienaar needs to be at 9 period!

Welcome to the board Lucid.

JP is defintely a real possibility at center. I posted on another thread that Plumtree says on attack he defends as a center but when the sharks are on defence he defends on the wing. This indicated he may still be having problems defending.
 

Have to agree that you backline needs to have enough physicality t oearn some respect and not be a bunch of lightweights losing all the collisions and making no impression when tackling etc.

What do you think of Vermaak. I like his quick, sniping flowing style.

 I think if the Sharks are considering to move JP to 13 in the long term, then it would only bode well for the boks. The reason why I believe JP and Frans would be great together is that both players are 26 and 25, Enabling them to play together for the next five years would be a great investment for the future, not to mention that both of the players have great test experience. 

They both are really fast and agile for such big players but are also solid in defence. 

I like the idea that we can bring in a player such as Mvovo who has genuine pace out wide and with the JP and Frans creating space in the midfield, we are sure to some great attacking rugby and move away from the horrible kick and chase that we had to endure over the last 5 years. 

I think that is what plummers had in mind at the beginning of the season, but also note that are wingers such Tana Umaga and Nonu were originally wingers before they moved to the centers. It may also open the door foor JJ to actually play at wing for the boks. 

For the Sharks this bacline would be great

9 Mcloud 10 Lambie 11 Ludik 12 Steyn 13 Pietersen 14 Mvovo 15 Viljoen 

For the boks we could have 

9 Hougaard 10 Goosen 11 JJ Engelbrecht 12 Steyn 13 Pietersen 14 Mvovo 15 Lambie

King - that would be my Bok backline - with Taute pushing once he returns from injury

Saffex

I want to repeat what I said above - both Francois Steyn and Pietersen are NO SPEEDSTERS.   Matter of fact they are comparatively slow and make use of their strength to try and get ahead.   Two centers of that type leaves a question mark - who is going to create space for them to break through and score.   You cannot have a successful center pairing like that - and that would in fact be a disaster.   You have to have one center like Francois Steyn and a more creative 13 - or a creative player at 12.    Neither Steyn nor Pietersen are creative players and I think it would neutralize our backline by pairing them up in that position.   None of them can in fact draw in defenders and while tackled can off-load successfully to another player and give him space to make a top type of run.   They could learn that art from Marcel Coetzee - but they have after 5 years playing top rugby - never mastered that art.   

Both are brillaint players - but somebody must create space to allow them to really shine.   Put Pietersen at wing and play a person with ball sense inside him and he is better than any other wing in the world.   At center he will never create openings for the wings to play from - end of story.      

 Mike does Jordaan fit the description of the 13 we need? I haven't really seen much of him but my friends seem to like him.

Sheeza

I have only seen him play six times in Super 15 and three games in the Junior WC.   Onre thing about him is that he creates tries - a very clever youngster.   he actually MADE his try  scored against the Reds by runnibng around Pietersen and giving him an inside pass.   When Pietersen was tackled Daniel picked up the ball and pass it to him - result a score under the post.

He also created the fourth try scored by the Junior Boks in the game against England as well - but picked up an injury and although he started in the semi - he only played for about 10 minutes.   Since then he had a problem with his hammy.    He is the type of player that creates space - and he will play at 13 - or may even be moved to 12 on Saturay.   The type of center I like - one thing about him is his ball sense - and the second his speed.   Although still only 20 - I believe that we will see a lot of him in the Springbok team in future.

There is anothe story about him - he was captain of Grey's College team in Bloem.   His younger brother is the present captain - but the Sormers contracted him - because rumour has it he is better than his brother - another top player within the family.   While he plays at 13 and 14, his younger brother plays at 10 and 12.

A nice player for the future - but I think he needs a bit more experience before taking him to higher level. 

Thanks beeno, yes Vermaak is very underated, he is quick similar to Genia play style at 9 that is exciting to watch. What i have noticed is that the ability to offload during the tackle has been a problem for the boks in the past, especially the stormers, that is also why i would recommend JP to be at 13 instead of JDV. I definitely think SA players need to improve on that, because it really does make a difference on attack.

Mike I am not sure where you get your perception on speed from, but I can assure you you are completely wrong. JP is an international wing and one of the best in the game and recognised as such. There is no way in hell a slow guy is going to get away with being one of the best wings in the game. JP is faster than most if not all current test 13's.

Frans, like Jean, is deceptively quick. There is nothing wrong with his pace at all, he is no slower than SBW, Nonu, Whitehead, Jean, Barritt, McCabe, Jurzion, Darcy, Roberts etc.

Both JP and Frans are physically imposing, have good speed and adept at using a step or swerve to beat their man. They would make a perfect Bok centre combo, given Frans breaks tackles, is creative and great in keeping the ball alive. JP is our best finisher and has the knack of slipping tackles and creating something from nothing

Mike from your description I would choose him as Bok 13 and keep JP on the wing.

Saffex

I am not the only person who says that neither Francois Steyn and Pietersen can be described as speedsters.   It was even reported on in the local media.   They are very strong runners and hard to bring down and very good finishers - but somebody must create space for them sn as to give them a chance to finish s movement resulting in a try.

Let me explain further as an example.   Pietersen scored that famous try in the second test against England.   He caughr rhe ball from a high kick and then started the move that led to the try.   He had some space and made a very good run - but not fast enough and he was caught ultimately.  brilliant - but the POM players caught up with him - however, the Springboks won the maul and pressed forwards.   The ball was eventually passed tpo De Villiers - who passed to Pietersen who then scored.

The point I am trying to prove is that he is NOT A SPEEDSTER - but rather a strong runner difficult to tackle.    I have to add that Pietersen Shine when he is given space to perform - but who is going to provide the space?   Definitely not Steyn - who basically has the same attributes as Pietersen.    Somebody must create the space - and the two of Steyn and Pietersen together will never provide space for each other to exploit.    We need a space creator in the baackline for Pietersen really to perform.

Let me explain further - when Pieterrsen played at 13 early in Super 15 - he did not set the house on fire.   Solid - nothing more.    It was only when he was moved to wing and they brought in Jordaan - that his season took off.    Jordaan created space for him and the result was a try-scoring spree.   On Saturday he polayed at 13 and scored a very good try.   That is NOT NECESSARILY because he was playing at 13 - he was running at an angle and Michalak created the required space for him and he scored.   That try he could have scored as easily from wing  as from 13.

If I was Meyer I would not waste Pietersen at 13 - it wiill not work put and it will damage Pietersen's professional career.   Let him stay at wing - that is where he would be of beeter use than at center.

 Wikipedia on JP Pieterson- I wont see that I agree with these- but does make somepoints- however valid or not-

Career

JP Pietersen's deceptive pace and gliding runs make him an unpredictable back-line player, with the ability to break the line at will and create attacking opportunities for his team.

He is also a clinical finisher, and was the leading try scorer in the 2007 Super 14 competition with 12 tries from 15 games.

However, Pietersen's weaknesses include his occasional susceptibility to poor handling, being particularly frail protecting the "high ball" and often "knocking on" in seemingly innocuous situations, a penchant which has often led to him being chastised by the local media and fans alike. 

Sources-SA Sports Illustrated. 

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My opinion-

I think he is a fast player- he does not look fast and runs like a spider.I would have to see more of him at outside center to say if he is the real deal. If I have any concerns it is about his positional play on defence. I think on attack he has it all- ok maybe not the best passer, but are any of our centres brilliant passes. We either have centres who are loose fowards(inside center) or wings(outside center).

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Frans Steyn- He is a great player- or at least skills wise. The only problem is he seems to be ball greedy. He can pass well, offload in the tackle, and has everything else. He is also fast- he is just chubby looking so it seems he is not fast. However he has played fullback and wing for the boks- he is fast. He just needs to take off the blinkers. Although when he does crash ball he is one of the best around- he pulls in so many players- and the fetchers can get the ball out of the ruck/tackle situation quickly to create overlaps. And his offloads are great. I would like to see him with a better flyhalf like Lambie, Morne stands so deep that Steyn often takes the ball at a stationary position.

Mike, you are very wrong..JP is probably the fastest player in our team. He is quicker than Habana but if Mvovo and Basson were regulars, they might be a bit quicker but not by much..JP just doesnt look fast because he has long strides but he is quicker than Habana...

 I believe that Steyn and Pietersen can flourish at centre if they have the right inside backs. If they have hougaard and morne then it would be less likely, but if they have a player in the shape of Cruden that like to attack the advantage line and able to off load in the tackle, these guys will thrive.

With the 10m rule for set phases, teams with flyhalf that can take the ball flat will do really well. Frans Steyn is a fantastic player and he is similar in that he can bust through tackles and create space. It doesn't always have to an offload in the tackle, but how quickly you can organise your attack. That is what michalak did, he controlled the direction of the game perfectly which enable the sharks to create a mismatch in the backline for JP to step the big forward.

We need great service delivery such as Vermaak, not hougaard as he is more of a player thats likely to snipe with the ball. Vermaak is much quicker and accurate when it comes to passing from rucks. If hougaard can work on work at the base of the ruck then I would pick him. 

Pietersen has showed that he likes to play with the ball and is not the type of player that will hold on to the ball like some of the players in the past. All of the plays you guys mentioned was where pietersen got the ball, off loaded it and then followed up to finish the move. 

Doesn't that speaks volumes of a players that keeps the ball moving?

 The way Jean hunted down Mvovo..I'd back him for speed when needed. Jean and Habana both out gained JP on Saturday, nobody mentions that.

JP breaks a line because he is strong and has good footwork - can step off either foot. He is not slow but is definitely not a gasman. He can make a success of both positions in my view. 

Agree with Moz re Jeans speed. He is still fast and hauled in Mvovo who had a start on him.

The real trick is how do you put the whole backline together.

 Boklogic what have you been smoking to think JP is faster than Habana?

Its a pity there is no data on times etc. Would really help to have the facts. Doubt JP would beat Habana. I also think Movovo is not as quick as some make out. Jordaan and Basson look very quick.  Small players look faster than the big guys though. JJ also looks like he has a fair turn of speed. Accelaration/ top speed also can confuse the picture.

Need stats over 25 meters and 50 and 80 say? 

Of course JP is faster than Habana.

And Burger is also faster than SPies i suppose??

HAHA what trash.

Look, JP is in imperious form... and he def has enough gas for wing.

He has built his entire career in the back 3, so it would be foolhardy to unplug 1 position to fill another.

We dont have many decent wings...

But we have an abundance of really good centers.

So why move JP?

I think he'd do a decent job there, but he is fantastic on the wing.

From Franna, JDV, Engelbrecht (Saffex is gonna suck me off after this), Blackhead, Juan, Jordaan and even Taute and Serfontein in the near future.... we don't need to worry about 12 or 13.

In conclusion:

Keep JP on the wing. Him, Habana play well together and know each others games and they will both give Skaapie plenty of experience at fullback.

I agree. Retire and dump the useless over rated JDV. The Bok centres should be Frans Steyn and JP.

i will be the first to admit that old jdv has been over his sale by date but calling for him to be removed now would be a bit harse. i feel after being moved to 13 after having what one can call a dry spell on a major scale at 12 he can offer a lot in the outside channel with his very slow hands and use of the once off pop pass. HM and co need to decide who will succeed him and that player needs to be mentored into the role. we dont have the depth at centre i feel so a move like this might be a good one. with frans and goosen at the inner half of the back line calling the shots we just need hard line running quick outer backs to use the space that is being created. i must admit on the other side of the coin to you really want to move JP the best winger in the world on current form to centre ???? i think he can do a job but will that be to the best for him as a player ????

Ahhh I see. JDV had a "what one could call a dry spell at 12" and now we have to find spot for him somewhere else. Why? Because he is the captain? Remind me a bit about how there was an uproar when John Smit had to be in the team because he was the captain. He too was not the best in his position, and was moved to another position to accommodate him in the team.

yeah agree bongani but to jdv credit he has redeemed himself to a degree. played well against the english and we lack expierence in the team and leadership so i think he serves a purpose in that regard. long term he is not the option but we are in strange phase of a new generation of players so its up to the mangement to identify the best and move forward from there

i would really like to see mvovo in the team...i really do rate the zulu express. he has so much to offer and can be a very important weapon.

JDV was always overrated.

to be fair there was no other players really pushing for places so he has down a decent job for years but since franna coming on the scene jdv has been relagated. he had a decent series against the english so i think he deserves a chance in the castle champs.....we will have to see that happens

True, but had Frans not gone to France (LOL), JDV would have had a tough battle.

agreed....after the rwc 2007 franna made himself the unsung hero in that position. in the end i think everything worked out well.

we just need to develop more centers as this fighting for positions is great for keep the players on there toes. jean cant step nor create space with his passes so i think 13 is perfect for him in retrospect of course. if jacques fourie returns then that might very well change too

I think in Jean's defence is that SA simply don't have an experience 13 that can fill the gap. This is due to the mess that Piet De Villiers have left SA rugby in. Instead of giving some fringe players the experience, he simply just picked players at random. 

I really like the looked of De Jongh, but always felt that he is better at 12 rather 13. In his first season he had Fourie on his outside and the pair combined really well. De Jongh and De Villiers have never really played well together where us De Villiers and Fourie has in the past. 

In the short term Meyer had to plug a hole and Jean is only there on a short term basis because he is the strongest leader in the current squad. In Matfield, Fourie Du Preez, Smit, Juan Smit and Burger we lost the core of our leadersip.

That said, I would like to see JP and Steyn get some games under the belt together because with two of them It should make our backline more exciting and provide us with that edge. 

I think we have more quality wingers than centers and its not un heard of wingers becoming centers. Umaga and Nonu ring a bell. 

For the Championship we will probably end up with these guys based on Meyer previous choices.

9 Hougaard

10 Morne Steyn

11 Habana

12 Frans steyn

13 De Villiers

14 Pietersen

15 Lambie

But going even further in the future I would love to see these players combine

9 ? 

10 Goosen

11 Mvovo

12 Serfontein

13 Jordaan

14 JJ Engelbrecht

15 Taute

"I agree. Retire and dump the useless over rated JDV. The Bok centres should be Frans Steyn and JP."

Any facts to support your statement or is it just your opinion?

Like you everybody else on here I have an opinion, and it is my opinion, based on what I have seen.

i do think jp can do it but i am just worried that he himself might not like the change. he just have amazing season playing on the wing so to me its a big decision to make maybe even one that can not benefit jp in the long run.

he has the size everthing so ja i dont known. tough call to make. for me i will chat to him and find out but he is really magical on the wing so i personally dont want to lose that x factor on the wing

i really like your team that you have there kingcorn. that backline can fire off i think. just need that next level of young talent learning from the others and being groomed. we just need more depth i feel.

i might start hougaard but will maybe give pienaar a shot to start against the pumas

No-one is questioning your right to an opinion, I'm asking for the facts to support your opinion. Do you have any?